Jmpasq wrote:

knickscity wrote:I'm pretty sure the Pacers would NOT be able to get Kawhi back. Most of that list are marginal at best players that any team probably could acquire.

Its the eligible players they could get in a trade with the injury exception nothing more.

Nalod wrote:Got to go right to "Blame" mode for the media, create a debate and fill the airwaves with content.

in this case, why shouldn't you? get to blame mode, figure out the injury factors and eliminate the ones that can be controlled for the future.

NardDogNation wrote:

EnySpree wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

EnySpree wrote:he has a max deal so you can't feel that bad for him....its 2014...he should bounce back eventually.

Indiana lost Lance to free agency and now Paul George to this freak injury....they are toast now. They might need to dump guys now. If I was Larry Bird, as soon as this settles in...I would look to dump salary and prepare the team for when Paul George comes back....best believe he will eventually.

Kind've ****ed up....but an unprotected 2015 first rounder from Indiana would be looking pretty good right about now. I could see them offloading George Hill, David West and Roy Hibbert though, all of whom we could use and are imminently available. This yet another Indiana team that had it's contender status cut short (I'm thinking of Jermaine O'Neal-Ron Artest era).

well it's a business as they say....Indiana could use a high pick now and they could use cap space going forward.....

the Knicks need David West to protect Melo inside....Hibbert sucks but he could be used as well.....the kinda obvious deal is Amare and Shump for West and Hibbert.

Indiana reloads and the Knicks man up....

This is a legit theory because Paul George is gonna be out a season and a half at least. If they can tank a little next season and make a free agent signing, they can reinvent the franchise behind a stellar rookie and a blue chip free agent to pair with Paul on his comeback tour.

Yeah, Hibbert's kind of a bum but I think they'd want to dump him and that contract in any deal involving David West. And considering West's advanced age, I doubt he'd command much beyond an expirer and an Iman Shumpert if Hibbert's included in the deal.

On a side, I somewhat like George Hill who I took could be a good bench player. I'd demand him back in the deal...maybe even push for Luis Scola who is a bit of a sieve defensively at this point but would be a good fit off the bench in the triangle as well. Maybe Amare, Bargnani, Shumpert and Larkin for Hibbert, West, Hill and Scola?

I'm trying to gauge exactly how much of a homer someone has to be, I mean a full on raging no doubt Knicks homer to convince themselves that Amare Stoudamire and/or Andrea Bargnani have any trade value what so ever.

In the new CBA, more and more teams have cap space. With shorter contracts and more player movement, the value of an "expiring" contract is not the same as it used to be. What has gone up in value are first round picks, which are essentially cost controlled rookie labor, and at worst, trade fodder to push off bad contracts to teams who are essentially "renting" their free cap space to buy picks ( assets) This is what the Jazz did when they picked up Biedriens and Richard Jefferson from the Warriors, they ate those bad contracts in exchange for first round picks.

At lot of times, I see Knick fans conjure up these imaginary trades without even putting themselves into the shoes of the non Knicks team and ask themselves how does this trade help that team and is this trade sensible for their aspirations to win a ring?

Roy Hibbert does not "suck", he's a young legitimate NBA center who can defend the rim. Maybe his offense will never be elite, but a center who can defend the rim and offer plus defense is critical to any team wanting to be a contender. If anyone thinks a package headlining STAT and Bargs is going to net Hibbert, all I can say is open the window some, so the smoke from that crack pipe doesn't hotbox the entire room.

Even if the Knicks could pull of that trade, Scola is a power forward. West is a power forward. The Knicks already have Melo as a power forward. And Hill, why would you want a sub replacement level point guard on your roster with a big contract when you have Calderon?

As for Paul George, the kid, sorry to say, is probably done. For his career? No. But as an elite wing and defensive stopper who can create his own shot and hold a standing as an elite two way Top Ten type player? Absolutely. Shaun Livingston took a year and half to get back on the court. And it took it him time after that to acclimate himself back into playing against elite competition. The guy ESPN has been quoting the most works for ESPN as an analyst. He is also not George's doctor. He doesn't work for the Pacers nor Team USA basketball. He's a guy paid by ESPN to serve ESPN's interest. ESPN is in bed with the NBA. The same major corporations who support the NBA support ESPN. Many of the same agents and representation that work for the NBA also handle many of the major personalities at ESPN. Of course the ESPN doctor is going to give an optimistic view and short side timeline. Do you think the NBA or ESPN wants that to be a major storyline to hang on forever? That all these teams are risking elite players for international play.

And why won't anyone talk about it? The NBA wants to globalize the game, I think that's no big secret. Doing so opens up other markets for game broadcasts and merchandise sales and infusing the NBA brand into other countries. Raising the NBA profile ups the valuation of the entire league, which ups the valuation of all individual franchises ( hence why the Clippers sold for a couple of billion) Since owners want a big return on their investment, watching the NBA grow is the reason they let their big ticket elite players play in international competition.

The players want to improve their individual brand and their marketing potential. Guys like Kobe and Wade are huge overseas and their merchandise sales overseas is off the charts. All in part because they played in these international competitions. Agents aren't fighting too hard because if they get the next Durant or LeBron, who gets massive endorsements and all these other opportunities, then look at how much money they make.

And let's not forget the idiot players. The ones who aren't happy just being a rich millionaire athlete. You get knuckleheads like Dwight Howard talking about wanting to be an international celebrity icon. Most of these ignorant yos want to be Jay Z. They want to be basketball gods, but also actors, singers, sports agents, have their own TV shows and clothing lines and also be a secret Tony Soprano type gangster gangbanger. Only a true knucklehead like Dwight Howard is going to think Lars Von Trier and David Fincher are going to be banging on his door to play lead in a 200 million dollar movie, when he's not in the studio pressing out his platinum hit rap album that is.

Is it really about national pride and glory of competition? For some, maybe.

But I think it's more about branding, marketing, self promotion, franchise valuation and general egos more than anything else.

Paul George is looking at probably 2 seasons out of the game. In his prime playing years, eating up max contract status against the Pacers cap. His contract is now a franchise killer. Insurance might help with the cash hit, but the league is only going to give a very small bit of salary cap relief for George's contract. And how long before he can get back up to elite competition? It could take up to THREE YEARS for George to reach whatever his new ceiling is going to be.

Can he have a career? Sure, but like a guy like Grant Hill, he's going to have to change his game. Pick his spots. Work on his long range shooting. Watch more game film. Learn to compensate for losing a step or two. But to think he will be back to heading towards his ceiling pre injury, I think that defies most conventional wisdom and sports history.

Two years out of the game, he will reenter the league with a whole new cast of players to figure out, also he won't have the same chemistry and synergy of a roster he's been working with for some time.

Notice how Paul George is being discussed. Vague timetables. Carefully crafted statements. "He'll recover in 9-12 months" That's not he'll be on the court at full on game speed in a year.

Of course the NBA wants to keep it very light right now. Think of their concerns for scheduling games and key note games for the season. Consider not wanting to spook other big ticket stars from leaving international play. Consider not wanting to spook Pacers season ticket holders from deciding it's time to spend the money elsewhere.

I doubt there is any future plans of building around Paul George anymore. He's done as a franchise player. Now his contract is a millstone around that team's neck, much like STATs contract has choked the life out of the Knicks for the last several years.

And for the last time, for those folks who keep taking about STAT as a trade piece because his expiring will open up cap space for a team, how exactly does a massive amount of cap space usually work out for most teams? The answer is, for most teams, it doesn't work out. Houston carved out space, hoping for James or Melo or Bosh. Instead they got Ariza. The Lakers carved out space hoping to get Melo or James or some other big ticket player. Instead they are paying Lin 15 million, gave Nick Young a four year deal, overpaid Kobe and still have no center. Chicago worked all year, two years, to try to carve out room for Melo or Bosh. They got Gasol. The Heat has more cap space than any team in history. What did they get? To overpay Bosh, get the corpse of Danny Granger, and overpay Wade and gift money to Haslem for being Wade's good buddy.

The Knicks are only going to get better by taking small positive steps. One after another. Rome wasn't built in a day. Taking in a declining George Hill is exactly the wrong thing to do. You have to build through the draft. Cheap, cost controlled labor, where you hope young talent emerges and begins to outplay and outproduce their rookie salary slot and contracts. Then they become major assets like a Chandler Parsons. If you want to lure a superstar like Durant, you have to have a young hungry talented roster in place with flexibility to attract them. Do you think Howard went to Houston because he loves Texas? No, he saw a team with an aggressive GM who had cap space, draft pick ammo, young players with upside, a nice mix of expirings and enough talent to make moves and still have a competitive roster even afterwards.

IMHO, Paul George is done as a franchise player. Too bad for the kid, what a great potential talent.

TripleThreat wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

EnySpree wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

EnySpree wrote:he has a max deal so you can't feel that bad for him....its 2014...he should bounce back eventually.

Indiana lost Lance to free agency and now Paul George to this freak injury....they are toast now. They might need to dump guys now. If I was Larry Bird, as soon as this settles in...I would look to dump salary and prepare the team for when Paul George comes back....best believe he will eventually.

Kind've ****ed up....but an unprotected 2015 first rounder from Indiana would be looking pretty good right about now. I could see them offloading George Hill, David West and Roy Hibbert though, all of whom we could use and are imminently available. This yet another Indiana team that had it's contender status cut short (I'm thinking of Jermaine O'Neal-Ron Artest era).

well it's a business as they say....Indiana could use a high pick now and they could use cap space going forward.....

the Knicks need David West to protect Melo inside....Hibbert sucks but he could be used as well.....the kinda obvious deal is Amare and Shump for West and Hibbert.

Indiana reloads and the Knicks man up....

This is a legit theory because Paul George is gonna be out a season and a half at least. If they can tank a little next season and make a free agent signing, they can reinvent the franchise behind a stellar rookie and a blue chip free agent to pair with Paul on his comeback tour.

Yeah, Hibbert's kind of a bum but I think they'd want to dump him and that contract in any deal involving David West. And considering West's advanced age, I doubt he'd command much beyond an expirer and an Iman Shumpert if Hibbert's included in the deal.

On a side, I somewhat like George Hill who I took could be a good bench player. I'd demand him back in the deal...maybe even push for Luis Scola who is a bit of a sieve defensively at this point but would be a good fit off the bench in the triangle as well. Maybe Amare, Bargnani, Shumpert and Larkin for Hibbert, West, Hill and Scola?

I'm trying to gauge exactly how much of a homer someone has to be, I mean a full on raging no doubt Knicks homer to convince themselves that Amare Stoudamire and/or Andrea Bargnani have any trade value what so ever.

In the new CBA, more and more teams have cap space. With shorter contracts and more player movement, the value of an "expiring" contract is not the same as it used to be. What has gone up in value are first round picks, which are essentially cost controlled rookie labor, and at worst, trade fodder to push off bad contracts to teams who are essentially "renting" their free cap space to buy picks ( assets) This is what the Jazz did when they picked up Biedriens and Richard Jefferson from the Warriors, they ate those bad contracts in exchange for first round picks.

At lot of times, I see Knick fans conjure up these imaginary trades without even putting themselves into the shoes of the non Knicks team and ask themselves how does this trade help that team and is this trade sensible for their aspirations to win a ring?

Roy Hibbert does not "suck", he's a young legitimate NBA center who can defend the rim. Maybe his offense will never be elite, but a center who can defend the rim and offer plus defense is critical to any team wanting to be a contender. If anyone thinks a package headlining STAT and Bargs is going to net Hibbert, all I can say is open the window some, so the smoke from that crack pipe doesn't hotbox the entire room.

Even if the Knicks could pull of that trade, Scola is a power forward. West is a power forward. The Knicks already have Melo as a power forward. And Hill, why would you want a sub replacement level point guard on your roster with a big contract when you have Calderon?

As for Paul George, the kid, sorry to say, is probably done. For his career? No. But as an elite wing and defensive stopper who can create his own shot and hold a standing as an elite two way Top Ten type player? Absolutely. Shaun Livingston took a year and half to get back on the court. And it took it him time after that to acclimate himself back into playing against elite competition. The guy ESPN has been quoting the most works for ESPN as an analyst. He is also not George's doctor. He doesn't work for the Pacers nor Team USA basketball. He's a guy paid by ESPN to serve ESPN's interest. ESPN is in bed with the NBA. The same major corporations who support the NBA support ESPN. Many of the same agents and representation that work for the NBA also handle many of the major personalities at ESPN. Of course the ESPN doctor is going to give an optimistic view and short side timeline. Do you think the NBA or ESPN wants that to be a major storyline to hang on forever? That all these teams are risking elite players for international play.

And why won't anyone talk about it? The NBA wants to globalize the game, I think that's no big secret. Doing so opens up other markets for game broadcasts and merchandise sales and infusing the NBA brand into other countries. Raising the NBA profile ups the valuation of the entire league, which ups the valuation of all individual franchises ( hence why the Clippers sold for a couple of billion) Since owners want a big return on their investment, watching the NBA grow is the reason they let their big ticket elite players play in international competition.

The players want to improve their individual brand and their marketing potential. Guys like Kobe and Wade are huge overseas and their merchandise sales overseas is off the charts. All in part because they played in these international competitions. Agents aren't fighting too hard because if they get the next Durant or LeBron, who gets massive endorsements and all these other opportunities, then look at how much money they make.

And let's not forget the idiot players. The ones who aren't happy just being a rich millionaire athlete. You get knuckleheads like Dwight Howard talking about wanting to be an international celebrity icon. Most of these ignorant yos want to be Jay Z. They want to be basketball gods, but also actors, singers, sports agents, have their own TV shows and clothing lines and also be a secret Tony Soprano type gangster gangbanger. Only a true knucklehead like Dwight Howard is going to think Lars Von Trier and David Fincher are going to be banging on his door to play lead in a 200 million dollar movie, when he's not in the studio pressing out his platinum hit rap album that is.

Is it really about national pride and glory of competition? For some, maybe.

But I think it's more about branding, marketing, self promotion, franchise valuation and general egos more than anything else.

Paul George is looking at probably 2 seasons out of the game. In his prime playing years, eating up max contract status against the Pacers cap. His contract is now a franchise killer. Insurance might help with the cash hit, but the league is only going to give a very small bit of salary cap relief for George's contract. And how long before he can get back up to elite competition? It could take up to THREE YEARS for George to reach whatever his new ceiling is going to be.

Can he have a career? Sure, but like a guy like Grant Hill, he's going to have to change his game. Pick his spots. Work on his long range shooting. Watch more game film. Learn to compensate for losing a step or two. But to think he will be back to heading towards his ceiling pre injury, I think that defies most conventional wisdom and sports history.

Two years out of the game, he will reenter the league with a whole new cast of players to figure out, also he won't have the same chemistry and synergy of a roster he's been working with for some time.

Notice how Paul George is being discussed. Vague timetables. Carefully crafted statements. "He'll recover in 9-12 months" That's not he'll be on the court at full on game speed in a year.

Of course the NBA wants to keep it very light right now. Think of their concerns for scheduling games and key note games for the season. Consider not wanting to spook other big ticket stars from leaving international play. Consider not wanting to spook Pacers season ticket holders from deciding it's time to spend the money elsewhere.

I doubt there is any future plans of building around Paul George anymore. He's done as a franchise player. Now his contract is a millstone around that team's neck, much like STATs contract has choked the life out of the Knicks for the last several years.

And for the last time, for those folks who keep taking about STAT as a trade piece because his expiring will open up cap space for a team, how exactly does a massive amount of cap space usually work out for most teams? The answer is, for most teams, it doesn't work out. Houston carved out space, hoping for James or Melo or Bosh. Instead they got Ariza. The Lakers carved out space hoping to get Melo or James or some other big ticket player. Instead they are paying Lin 15 million, gave Nick Young a four year deal, overpaid Kobe and still have no center. Chicago worked all year, two years, to try to carve out room for Melo or Bosh. They got Gasol. The Heat has more cap space than any team in history. What did they get? To overpay Bosh, get the corpse of Danny Granger, and overpay Wade and gift money to Haslem for being Wade's good buddy.

The Knicks are only going to get better by taking small positive steps. One after another. Rome wasn't built in a day. Taking in a declining George Hill is exactly the wrong thing to do. You have to build through the draft. Cheap, cost controlled labor, where you hope young talent emerges and begins to outplay and outproduce their rookie salary slot and contracts. Then they become major assets like a Chandler Parsons. If you want to lure a superstar like Durant, you have to have a young hungry talented roster in place with flexibility to attract them. Do you think Howard went to Houston because he loves Texas? No, he saw a team with an aggressive GM who had cap space, draft pick ammo, young players with upside, a nice mix of expirings and enough talent to make moves and still have a competitive roster even afterwards.

IMHO, Paul George is done as a franchise player. Too bad for the kid, what a great potential talent.

JoeyBagadonuts wrote:Owing to the departure of Lance Stephenson, Indiana has a gaping hole at SG/knucklehead, and needs backcourt scoring in the worst way. So opportunity knocks for moving JR. C. Copeland for JR works for me, and for tradechecker. Vogel doesn't know what he has in Cope, but Fish won't make the same mistake.

I'd do that with the quickness. Jr on the Pacers makes it a rivalry again.

EnySpree wrote:

JoeyBagadonuts wrote:Owing to the departure of Lance Stephenson, Indiana has a gaping hole at SG/knucklehead, and needs backcourt scoring in the worst way. So opportunity knocks for moving JR. C. Copeland for JR works for me, and for tradechecker. Vogel doesn't know what he has in Cope, but Fish won't make the same mistake.

I'd do that with the quickness. Jr on the Pacers makes it a rivalry again.

So you want to give away JR for a 30 year old jump shooting forward who does not play D particularly well and could not crack the rotation on the Pacers last year.....because Cope played a limited number of good games for the Knicks 2 years ago. If the plan is to trade JR, wouldn't it be better to try and harness JR's potential under Fisher/PJ in order to drive up his value to bring back more (such as a pick) in a trade? If I was PJ, I would assign a mentor/personal assistant/spy to JR to be with him at all times and keep him out of trouble.......try to drive short term focus and success on the court......and then trade him during the season to a team in need of a 2.

TripleThreat wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

EnySpree wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

EnySpree wrote:he has a max deal so you can't feel that bad for him....its 2014...he should bounce back eventually.

Indiana lost Lance to free agency and now Paul George to this freak injury....they are toast now. They might need to dump guys now. If I was Larry Bird, as soon as this settles in...I would look to dump salary and prepare the team for when Paul George comes back....best believe he will eventually.

Kind've ****ed up....but an unprotected 2015 first rounder from Indiana would be looking pretty good right about now. I could see them offloading George Hill, David West and Roy Hibbert though, all of whom we could use and are imminently available. This yet another Indiana team that had it's contender status cut short (I'm thinking of Jermaine O'Neal-Ron Artest era).

well it's a business as they say....Indiana could use a high pick now and they could use cap space going forward.....

the Knicks need David West to protect Melo inside....Hibbert sucks but he could be used as well.....the kinda obvious deal is Amare and Shump for West and Hibbert.

Indiana reloads and the Knicks man up....

This is a legit theory because Paul George is gonna be out a season and a half at least. If they can tank a little next season and make a free agent signing, they can reinvent the franchise behind a stellar rookie and a blue chip free agent to pair with Paul on his comeback tour.

Yeah, Hibbert's kind of a bum but I think they'd want to dump him and that contract in any deal involving David West. And considering West's advanced age, I doubt he'd command much beyond an expirer and an Iman Shumpert if Hibbert's included in the deal.

On a side, I somewhat like George Hill who I took could be a good bench player. I'd demand him back in the deal...maybe even push for Luis Scola who is a bit of a sieve defensively at this point but would be a good fit off the bench in the triangle as well. Maybe Amare, Bargnani, Shumpert and Larkin for Hibbert, West, Hill and Scola?

I'm trying to gauge exactly how much of a homer someone has to be, I mean a full on raging no doubt Knicks homer to convince themselves that Amare Stoudamire and/or Andrea Bargnani have any trade value what so ever.

In the new CBA, more and more teams have cap space. With shorter contracts and more player movement, the value of an "expiring" contract is not the same as it used to be. What has gone up in value are first round picks, which are essentially cost controlled rookie labor, and at worst, trade fodder to push off bad contracts to teams who are essentially "renting" their free cap space to buy picks ( assets) This is what the Jazz did when they picked up Biedriens and Richard Jefferson from the Warriors, they ate those bad contracts in exchange for first round picks.

At lot of times, I see Knick fans conjure up these imaginary trades without even putting themselves into the shoes of the non Knicks team and ask themselves how does this trade help that team and is this trade sensible for their aspirations to win a ring?

Roy Hibbert does not "suck", he's a young legitimate NBA center who can defend the rim. Maybe his offense will never be elite, but a center who can defend the rim and offer plus defense is critical to any team wanting to be a contender. If anyone thinks a package headlining STAT and Bargs is going to net Hibbert, all I can say is open the window some, so the smoke from that crack pipe doesn't hotbox the entire room.

Even if the Knicks could pull of that trade, Scola is a power forward. West is a power forward. The Knicks already have Melo as a power forward. And Hill, why would you want a sub replacement level point guard on your roster with a big contract when you have Calderon?

As for Paul George, the kid, sorry to say, is probably done. For his career? No. But as an elite wing and defensive stopper who can create his own shot and hold a standing as an elite two way Top Ten type player? Absolutely. Shaun Livingston took a year and half to get back on the court. And it took it him time after that to acclimate himself back into playing against elite competition. The guy ESPN has been quoting the most works for ESPN as an analyst. He is also not George's doctor. He doesn't work for the Pacers nor Team USA basketball. He's a guy paid by ESPN to serve ESPN's interest. ESPN is in bed with the NBA. The same major corporations who support the NBA support ESPN. Many of the same agents and representation that work for the NBA also handle many of the major personalities at ESPN. Of course the ESPN doctor is going to give an optimistic view and short side timeline. Do you think the NBA or ESPN wants that to be a major storyline to hang on forever? That all these teams are risking elite players for international play.

And why won't anyone talk about it? The NBA wants to globalize the game, I think that's no big secret. Doing so opens up other markets for game broadcasts and merchandise sales and infusing the NBA brand into other countries. Raising the NBA profile ups the valuation of the entire league, which ups the valuation of all individual franchises ( hence why the Clippers sold for a couple of billion) Since owners want a big return on their investment, watching the NBA grow is the reason they let their big ticket elite players play in international competition.

The players want to improve their individual brand and their marketing potential. Guys like Kobe and Wade are huge overseas and their merchandise sales overseas is off the charts. All in part because they played in these international competitions. Agents aren't fighting too hard because if they get the next Durant or LeBron, who gets massive endorsements and all these other opportunities, then look at how much money they make.

And let's not forget the idiot players. The ones who aren't happy just being a rich millionaire athlete. You get knuckleheads like Dwight Howard talking about wanting to be an international celebrity icon. Most of these ignorant yos want to be Jay Z. They want to be basketball gods, but also actors, singers, sports agents, have their own TV shows and clothing lines and also be a secret Tony Soprano type gangster gangbanger. Only a true knucklehead like Dwight Howard is going to think Lars Von Trier and David Fincher are going to be banging on his door to play lead in a 200 million dollar movie, when he's not in the studio pressing out his platinum hit rap album that is.

Is it really about national pride and glory of competition? For some, maybe.

But I think it's more about branding, marketing, self promotion, franchise valuation and general egos more than anything else.

Paul George is looking at probably 2 seasons out of the game. In his prime playing years, eating up max contract status against the Pacers cap. His contract is now a franchise killer. Insurance might help with the cash hit, but the league is only going to give a very small bit of salary cap relief for George's contract. And how long before he can get back up to elite competition? It could take up to THREE YEARS for George to reach whatever his new ceiling is going to be.

Can he have a career? Sure, but like a guy like Grant Hill, he's going to have to change his game. Pick his spots. Work on his long range shooting. Watch more game film. Learn to compensate for losing a step or two. But to think he will be back to heading towards his ceiling pre injury, I think that defies most conventional wisdom and sports history.

Two years out of the game, he will reenter the league with a whole new cast of players to figure out, also he won't have the same chemistry and synergy of a roster he's been working with for some time.

Notice how Paul George is being discussed. Vague timetables. Carefully crafted statements. "He'll recover in 9-12 months" That's not he'll be on the court at full on game speed in a year.

Of course the NBA wants to keep it very light right now. Think of their concerns for scheduling games and key note games for the season. Consider not wanting to spook other big ticket stars from leaving international play. Consider not wanting to spook Pacers season ticket holders from deciding it's time to spend the money elsewhere.

I doubt there is any future plans of building around Paul George anymore. He's done as a franchise player. Now his contract is a millstone around that team's neck, much like STATs contract has choked the life out of the Knicks for the last several years.

And for the last time, for those folks who keep taking about STAT as a trade piece because his expiring will open up cap space for a team, how exactly does a massive amount of cap space usually work out for most teams? The answer is, for most teams, it doesn't work out. Houston carved out space, hoping for James or Melo or Bosh. Instead they got Ariza. The Lakers carved out space hoping to get Melo or James or some other big ticket player. Instead they are paying Lin 15 million, gave Nick Young a four year deal, overpaid Kobe and still have no center. Chicago worked all year, two years, to try to carve out room for Melo or Bosh. They got Gasol. The Heat has more cap space than any team in history. What did they get? To overpay Bosh, get the corpse of Danny Granger, and overpay Wade and gift money to Haslem for being Wade's good buddy.

The Knicks are only going to get better by taking small positive steps. One after another. Rome wasn't built in a day. Taking in a declining George Hill is exactly the wrong thing to do. You have to build through the draft. Cheap, cost controlled labor, where you hope young talent emerges and begins to outplay and outproduce their rookie salary slot and contracts. Then they become major assets like a Chandler Parsons. If you want to lure a superstar like Durant, you have to have a young hungry talented roster in place with flexibility to attract them. Do you think Howard went to Houston because he loves Texas? No, he saw a team with an aggressive GM who had cap space, draft pick ammo, young players with upside, a nice mix of expirings and enough talent to make moves and still have a competitive roster even afterwards.

IMHO, Paul George is done as a franchise player. Too bad for the kid, what a great potential talent.

I largely agree with your points and have to admit that the "proposal" I made was half-hearted - moreso intended to inspire conversation about what a deal involving Indiana's players would look like rather than an actual offer. Make no mistake about it though, the right move for Indiana at this point is to dump all the players I mentioned and try to play the rebuild/lottery game. David West, Roy Hibbert, George Hill and/or Luis Scola are NOT capable of filling the void left behind by Paul George and Lance Stephenson. What then would be the point in being a middling team, delaying the inevitable? And who tells you that older veterans like Scola and West will want to be around for a middling team? And considering that players of their ilk can be readily had in free agency (e.g. Carlos Boozer, Pau Gasol= David West; Chris Kaman, Josh McRoberts and Spencer Hawes= Luis Scola) what kind of return could Indiana expect for them at 34 years old apiece?

The only two things I disagree with you on are: (1) Roy Hibbert sucking and (2) the value of an expiring contract.

As for Hibbert, what makes him any different from being Andrea Bargnani (health issues aside)? To me, they are the ying-yang of uberly skilled big men that are utterly mediocre/inconsistent overall. No sane basketball team would give up assets beyond an expirer/cap flexibility for Bargnani, so why should I believe that Hibbert is worth much more? If anything, what Bargnani does today is much more en vogue with teams looking to spread the floor and create driving lanes. On the flip side, Hibbert was being benched against teams like the Hawks and Heat because of how badly his skillset allowed him to be exploited. I doubt that a team is going to give up picks or prospects for someone like that. In my opinion, his contract and concerning play make him a prime candidate for a salary dump.

And as for expiring contracts, I don't think their value has changed at all. Even before this CBA, you could only get questionable talent for an expirer e.g. Gilbert Arenas and his bad knees; a malcontent, injury-prone Vince Carter from Toronto averaging 16ppg; the ghost of Chris Webber's career from Sacramento, etc. How is that any different from today? An aged Andre Miller still got traded for Jan Vesely's expiring contract; Ben Gordon and a 1st round pick still got traded to Charlotte for Corey Maggette's expirer; Rudy Gay still got traded to Sacramento for expirers in principle. I'm not seeing the difference between it's value then and now.

according to Part 25 of Larry Coon's Salary Cap FAQ, the Pacers would have the option to sign, acquire, or claim a player on waivers via the following guidelines:

• The team may sign a free agent for one season only, for 50% of the disabled player's salary or the amount of the Non-Taxpayer Mid-Level exception, whichever is less.

• The team may trade for a player in the last season of his contract only (including any option years), who is making no more than 50% plus $100,000 of the disabled player's salary, or the amount of the Non-Taxpayer Mid-Level exception plus $100,000, whichever is less.

• The team may claim a player on waivers who is in the last season of his contract only (including any option years), who is making no more than 50% of the disabled player's salary, or the amount of the Non-Taxpayer Mid-Level exception, whichever is less.

Given the significant blow that the serious nature of Friday evening's injury dealt to the immediate futures of both Paul George and the Pacers' franchise, acquiring a player for the Non-Taxpayer Mid-Level exception (equal to $5.305M for the upcoming season) appears to be a decent avenue for the team to utilize as they attempt to move forward

NardDogNation wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

foosballnick wrote:

EnySpree wrote:

JoeyBagadonuts wrote:Owing to the departure of Lance Stephenson, Indiana has a gaping hole at SG/knucklehead, and needs backcourt scoring in the worst way. So opportunity knocks for moving JR. C. Copeland for JR works for me, and for tradechecker. Vogel doesn't know what he has in Cope, but Fish won't make the same mistake.

I'd do that with the quickness. Jr on the Pacers makes it a rivalry again.

So you want to give away JR for a 30 year old jump shooting forward who does not play D particularly well and could not crack the rotation on the Pacers last year.....because Cope played a limited number of good games for the Knicks 2 years ago. If the plan is to trade JR, wouldn't it be better to try and harness JR's potential under Fisher/PJ in order to drive up his value to bring back more (such as a pick) in a trade? If I was PJ, I would assign a mentor/personal assistant/spy to JR to be with him at all times and keep him out of trouble.......try to drive short term focus and success on the court......and then trade him during the season to a team in need of a 2.

I agree that the Knicks need to get more than Cope if they are going to move JR. I also think JR may do very well in a more structured environment and yeah I know the names of the other coaches he has played for. I am a bit surprised that Cope and JR works salary wise in the trade checker. Cope got a great deal and then couldn't crack the rotation. Also important to remember that Cope is older then Smith and the same age as Anthony.

I'm not sure you could get much more than Copeland. JR is 28 years old and a known commodity by now. What you see, is what you get with him and his attitude makes his skillset expendable. All he is, is an older version of Nick Young and Young has been readily available for next to nothing for several years now. Needless to say, I think we'd be better served having his $6 million vacated from the books in 2015 than by keeping him around.

Actually Jr is younger than Nick Young and young is not the player JR is or has had several efficient shooting years like JR or matched his rebounding and ast. I would build JRs value. The knicks have their TPE to get Copeland if Indy doesn't want him.