gunsnewing wrote:I think a poll is needed. Did Linsanity turn the Knicks season around?

Prediction:
29 Yes
1 No

The Knicks went 3-9 over the next 12 games.

CrushAlot wrote:

dk7th wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

tkf wrote:

dk7th wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

dk7th wrote:

foosballnick wrote:

tkf wrote:

foosballnick wrote:

fishmike wrote:

foosballnick wrote:

tkf wrote:

dk7th wrote:

tkf wrote:

foosballnick wrote:TKF,

I'm sorry but the argument you are presenting does not appear to be logical.

You made a claim in this thread that Melo has Damaged the Knicks by being here. And backed that claim up by stating that he was responsible for essentially being the Knicks GM by forcing himself here and trading himself to the Knicks for assets. o

Here's the problem with this argument. The Knicks (Dolan/Walsh) were not forced to trade for Melo, they were the ones who agreed to the trade with Denver. If Melo did not want to wait for Free Agency....they could have went in a different direction. You can not assign blame to Melo for a decision that was made by Dolan. If you want to assign blame to Dolan for where the team is with regards to roster, cap space and picks, then you have a point.

Secondly - the Knicks are essentially the same franchise they were prior to Melo arriving. One could even argue that they had better in season results and achieved the playoffs more often with Melo then without him. So I am hard pressed to understand how he has damaged the Knicks.

I explained that.. he was a co conspirator with dolan. If you just see him as some innocent bystander then really I can't help you.

let me ask you this. did carmelo have nanything to do with how he got here? answer that first...

no melo is an innocent victim who was pulled into the evil dolan vortex and now he is being martyred because the franchise he so badly wanted to play for has betrayed him by not properly building around him.

honestly the degree of infantilizing around here of this douche is disturbing

it is very disturbing. No one around here gets that kind of rope.. yet we hear the excuse now. "well I root for whoever is on this team"... I will keep that in mind the next time the felton and tyson chandler bashing starts...

No one will accept that carmelo helped Denver get a better deal than they probably should have, and he allowed the nets to drive the price up on the knicks. I think that was just cowardly and disloyal to a team that you were trying to come to.... yes he is a douche...

So essentially when your argument is weak, you guys resort to name calling.

Melo wanted to come to the Knicks and also wanted to avoid Free Agency. So what. That still does not make him culpable for any of the assets that the Knicks sent in order to obtain him. Dolan coveted Melo and was willing to part with a bunch of players and picks to obtain him. If Dolan did not want Melo on the Knicks, it would not have mattered in any way what Melo did or said during that period of time. You can continue to manufacture subjective opinions of why everyone should despise a player. You can also continue to say ugly things about another person that you don't even know.....that just makes you appear to be ugly inside as well. If t, ithat's how you want to be thought of on this board.....great.

I'm done with this thread. If you want to claim victory in how much damage Melo has done to the Knicks.....go for it.

every now and then someone actually addresses TFK's comments seriously. Let this be a lesson.

I'll break my word on being done with this thread just to respond to Fish's post. I intentionally tried to keep my comments with TKF serious and professional without engaging in name-calling to see where it would go. Predictably it went to the same place it always seems to do......TKF posting something condescending by thinking he is smarter and teaching us a lesson because "we seem confused". Not really a big deal, the super insecure apparently need to continually talk about how superior they are in order to make themselves feel better.

so instead of defending your argument.. you are going to take the bailout that I called carmelo a douche.. I didn't call you a nane at all. you see what you are doing is bailing out.. and I understand, you have yet to answer any of mine or DK's questions regarding carmelo and his role in this mess...

I find it odd that you are so offended that I called carmelo a "name", yet DK and i have been called all types of names and we didn't cost the knicks any draft picks or money..

I'm not offended by your name calling. It's difficult to have a reasonable discussion with you because you resort to name calling (such as Melo is a douche, clown, small minded, arrogant etc) which both detracts and distracts from any forum discussion. Further, you are attempting to pull the discussion in a direction where there are no known facts, only subjective opinions. There is no way any of us know about the extent or details of Melo's involvement in any trade discussions with Denver. You are demanding an answer from me to this question, when you don't know the answer yourself.

You're saying that I bailed out instead of defending my argument or answering your question.

You asked about the extent of Melo's involvement in the trade discussions - my answer is I don't know.....and neither do you. You choose to use your opinion on this question as if it were a fact, in order to try and defend your point. It is impossible to have a reasonable discussion with someone who believes that their opinions are facts.

You contend that Melo damaged the Knicks mainly because of the trade and the assets he forced Dolan to trade for himself while he was still on the Nuggets. You also contend that Melo is to blame for not becoming a Free Agent and signing with the Knicks.

I contend that Dolan was solely responsible for any trade damage - and since we do not know the inner workings of Melo's involvement, we can not factually assign blame to him. I also contend that Melo had the right to become a free agent, just as Dolan had the right and power to not trade with Denver and take a pass on Melo (or take his chances if Melo entered free agency).

Further - I contend that the Knicks performance on the court after Melo arrived produced better results during the regular season as well as more frequent playoff appearances than the 3-10 years prior to his arrival. I also contend that neither before nor after Melo's arrival - where the Knicks a Championship caliber team.

So in summary.......

Dolan was responsible for trading away assets
Knicks performance was better after Melo arrived
Knicks revenue was better after Melo arrived
Knicks championship chances were not obtainable either before/after Melo

Melo seems to have had a net positive result for the Knicks.....and you are claiming that he damaged the franchise solely based upon you placing Melo above Dolan in the Knicks decision making hierarchy.....while he was still with the Nuggets.

Your response to all of this was....."so you believe Melo was an innocent bystander....blah blah blah". The question you ask has little or nothing to do with the point you are trying to defend. Whether or not (nor the extent that) Melo was involved in the trade discussions for himself is a moot point. Dolan is the decision maker with the Knicks....and fully accountable for what assets get shipped out in trades etc.

So continue to try and convince everyone that people bail out of conversations with you because you are so smart or they are so confused. You continue to obfuscate any reasonable dialog because you have a habit of presenting opinions as facts, talking in circles and using expletives to detract from the subject matter.

1) you are hiding behind the correlation/causation fallacy, except in reverse
2) the only relevant comparison is to the 28-26 knicks the year he "arrived." 127-103 for a .552 winning percentage. looks okay, a little better than average but consider that without lin they miss the playoffs and without kidd they are a .500 team.
3) utterly irrelevant to being a winner
4) then why the hell come here in the first place unless for a money grab and an ego trip?!?

The whole Lin is the reason the Knicks made the playoffs is pretty far fetched. The Knicks only played two teams over .500 in that run. The combined record of those teams was 42 games under .500. It was a nice run but 18-6 against teams trying to make the playoffs and a guy on the Knicks playing better than anyone else in the league in April while Lin was saving himself for free agency is why the Knicks made the playoffs.

the notion of momentum eludes you, both in your understanding of taking bad shots in a game by overpaid overrated low bbiq players and what happens in the course of a season when someone comes out of nowhere to rescue a team's season. the season would have been lost, utterly lost, had lin not emerged for that stretch. it gave the team hope, a reason to persevere, and they were able to build on that. honestly this is so simple. why must you continue to fluff this impotent wannabe and never was? he's gone anyway

absolutely mind boggling...

That momentum thing is pretty interesting. Glad you guys are here to explain it. Maybe you could help me out with a couple of more things I wonder about in regards to those seven games back in 2/11. Do you have a better chance of acquiring momentum if the majority of teams that you play for a stretch of games lose 70 or 80% of the time? And does the probability that you will win increase when you play teams that lose at that same rate?

if lin is not there to play in those games the knicks do not win those games and the season is over. but he is there and the knicks are still in it.

SIMPLE

Ok. How about this. Any team, not the Knicks, has a run in their schedule where they face teams that lose at a rate previously described. This team doesn't have Jeremy Lin. Does the random team have a better chance of acquiring momentum where the majority of teams tthey face lose 70-80% of their games? Is the probability that they will win higher? All hypotheticals but just curious.

no need to deal in hypotheticals when reality and facts are readily available:

they started the season without a true point guard and carmelo anthony sort of as point forward-- i guess-- and went 8-15. fact.

i do not know what the overall quality of opponent was but they were playing .350 ball and were headed to the lottery. fact.

no point guard to run d'antoni's offense. fact.

jeremy lin came in and they went 10-3, starting with the nets. fact. and with a point guard to run d'antoni's offense. fact. [side note: first game with lin melo plays and stinks it up; second game he gets injured.]

carmelo anthony comes back and the knicks lose to the nets, the first team and victim of the lin streak. fact.

carmelo anthony dogs it for d'antoni. fact.

the knicks then go on a massive losing streak, including six losses in a row, this after anthony returns. fact.

d'antoni goes to the gm and asks that a trade be made, anthony for williams. the answer is no and d'antoni resigns. fact.

woodson comes in and anthony admits he is playing harder for woodson. fact.

tkf wrote:
I guess when carmelo leaves the knicks as a free agent, that won't be on carmelo either.. he can blame it on GM that signs him..

This point really has very little value except in the context of either trying to troll or bait another poster (me) on this forum. I really have no emotion as to Melo staying or leaving. But if Melo does decide to leave via free agency.....he owns that decision. If Melo decides to participate in a S&T....than Melo, the Knicks and the participating team own the decision. What the other team decides to trade back in assets to the Knicks for Melo....is the other team's responsibility and not Melo's. It is really not too difficult to follow the logic of who holds accountability for these types of decisions.

CrushAlot wrote:

gunsnewing wrote:Exactly. As soon as Melo returned from injury. Then Dantoni was fired

I am not sure but I think we agree to some extent on the merits of D'Antoni. If he had resigned earlier the Knicks might have had a shot at a higher seed. Minimally I think they could have caught the Hawks.

maybe if carmelo didn't sabotage the season with his whining and pouting... he would not have had to quit...

dk7th wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

dk7th wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

tkf wrote:

dk7th wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

dk7th wrote:

foosballnick wrote:

tkf wrote:

foosballnick wrote:

fishmike wrote:

foosballnick wrote:

tkf wrote:

dk7th wrote:

tkf wrote:

foosballnick wrote:TKF,

I'm sorry but the argument you are presenting does not appear to be logical.

You made a claim in this thread that Melo has Damaged the Knicks by being here. And backed that claim up by stating that he was responsible for essentially being the Knicks GM by forcing himself here and trading himself to the Knicks for assets. o

Here's the problem with this argument. The Knicks (Dolan/Walsh) were not forced to trade for Melo, they were the ones who agreed to the trade with Denver. If Melo did not want to wait for Free Agency....they could have went in a different direction. You can not assign blame to Melo for a decision that was made by Dolan. If you want to assign blame to Dolan for where the team is with regards to roster, cap space and picks, then you have a point.

Secondly - the Knicks are essentially the same franchise they were prior to Melo arriving. One could even argue that they had better in season results and achieved the playoffs more often with Melo then without him. So I am hard pressed to understand how he has damaged the Knicks.

I explained that.. he was a co conspirator with dolan. If you just see him as some innocent bystander then really I can't help you.

let me ask you this. did carmelo have nanything to do with how he got here? answer that first...

no melo is an innocent victim who was pulled into the evil dolan vortex and now he is being martyred because the franchise he so badly wanted to play for has betrayed him by not properly building around him.

honestly the degree of infantilizing around here of this douche is disturbing

it is very disturbing. No one around here gets that kind of rope.. yet we hear the excuse now. "well I root for whoever is on this team"... I will keep that in mind the next time the felton and tyson chandler bashing starts...

No one will accept that carmelo helped Denver get a better deal than they probably should have, and he allowed the nets to drive the price up on the knicks. I think that was just cowardly and disloyal to a team that you were trying to come to.... yes he is a douche...

So essentially when your argument is weak, you guys resort to name calling.

Melo wanted to come to the Knicks and also wanted to avoid Free Agency. So what. That still does not make him culpable for any of the assets that the Knicks sent in order to obtain him. Dolan coveted Melo and was willing to part with a bunch of players and picks to obtain him. If Dolan did not want Melo on the Knicks, it would not have mattered in any way what Melo did or said during that period of time. You can continue to manufacture subjective opinions of why everyone should despise a player. You can also continue to say ugly things about another person that you don't even know.....that just makes you appear to be ugly inside as well. If t, ithat's how you want to be thought of on this board.....great.

I'm done with this thread. If you want to claim victory in how much damage Melo has done to the Knicks.....go for it.

every now and then someone actually addresses TFK's comments seriously. Let this be a lesson.

I'll break my word on being done with this thread just to respond to Fish's post. I intentionally tried to keep my comments with TKF serious and professional without engaging in name-calling to see where it would go. Predictably it went to the same place it always seems to do......TKF posting something condescending by thinking he is smarter and teaching us a lesson because "we seem confused". Not really a big deal, the super insecure apparently need to continually talk about how superior they are in order to make themselves feel better.

so instead of defending your argument.. you are going to take the bailout that I called carmelo a douche.. I didn't call you a nane at all. you see what you are doing is bailing out.. and I understand, you have yet to answer any of mine or DK's questions regarding carmelo and his role in this mess...

I find it odd that you are so offended that I called carmelo a "name", yet DK and i have been called all types of names and we didn't cost the knicks any draft picks or money..

I'm not offended by your name calling. It's difficult to have a reasonable discussion with you because you resort to name calling (such as Melo is a douche, clown, small minded, arrogant etc) which both detracts and distracts from any forum discussion. Further, you are attempting to pull the discussion in a direction where there are no known facts, only subjective opinions. There is no way any of us know about the extent or details of Melo's involvement in any trade discussions with Denver. You are demanding an answer from me to this question, when you don't know the answer yourself.

You're saying that I bailed out instead of defending my argument or answering your question.

You asked about the extent of Melo's involvement in the trade discussions - my answer is I don't know.....and neither do you. You choose to use your opinion on this question as if it were a fact, in order to try and defend your point. It is impossible to have a reasonable discussion with someone who believes that their opinions are facts.

You contend that Melo damaged the Knicks mainly because of the trade and the assets he forced Dolan to trade for himself while he was still on the Nuggets. You also contend that Melo is to blame for not becoming a Free Agent and signing with the Knicks.

I contend that Dolan was solely responsible for any trade damage - and since we do not know the inner workings of Melo's involvement, we can not factually assign blame to him. I also contend that Melo had the right to become a free agent, just as Dolan had the right and power to not trade with Denver and take a pass on Melo (or take his chances if Melo entered free agency).

Further - I contend that the Knicks performance on the court after Melo arrived produced better results during the regular season as well as more frequent playoff appearances than the 3-10 years prior to his arrival. I also contend that neither before nor after Melo's arrival - where the Knicks a Championship caliber team.

So in summary.......

Dolan was responsible for trading away assets
Knicks performance was better after Melo arrived
Knicks revenue was better after Melo arrived
Knicks championship chances were not obtainable either before/after Melo

Melo seems to have had a net positive result for the Knicks.....and you are claiming that he damaged the franchise solely based upon you placing Melo above Dolan in the Knicks decision making hierarchy.....while he was still with the Nuggets.

Your response to all of this was....."so you believe Melo was an innocent bystander....blah blah blah". The question you ask has little or nothing to do with the point you are trying to defend. Whether or not (nor the extent that) Melo was involved in the trade discussions for himself is a moot point. Dolan is the decision maker with the Knicks....and fully accountable for what assets get shipped out in trades etc.

So continue to try and convince everyone that people bail out of conversations with you because you are so smart or they are so confused. You continue to obfuscate any reasonable dialog because you have a habit of presenting opinions as facts, talking in circles and using expletives to detract from the subject matter.

1) you are hiding behind the correlation/causation fallacy, except in reverse
2) the only relevant comparison is to the 28-26 knicks the year he "arrived." 127-103 for a .552 winning percentage. looks okay, a little better than average but consider that without lin they miss the playoffs and without kidd they are a .500 team.
3) utterly irrelevant to being a winner
4) then why the hell come here in the first place unless for a money grab and an ego trip?!?

The whole Lin is the reason the Knicks made the playoffs is pretty far fetched. The Knicks only played two teams over .500 in that run. The combined record of those teams was 42 games under .500. It was a nice run but 18-6 against teams trying to make the playoffs and a guy on the Knicks playing better than anyone else in the league in April while Lin was saving himself for free agency is why the Knicks made the playoffs.

the notion of momentum eludes you, both in your understanding of taking bad shots in a game by overpaid overrated low bbiq players and what happens in the course of a season when someone comes out of nowhere to rescue a team's season. the season would have been lost, utterly lost, had lin not emerged for that stretch. it gave the team hope, a reason to persevere, and they were able to build on that. honestly this is so simple. why must you continue to fluff this impotent wannabe and never was? he's gone anyway

absolutely mind boggling...

That momentum thing is pretty interesting. Glad you guys are here to explain it. Maybe you could help me out with a couple of more things I wonder about in regards to those seven games back in 2/11. Do you have a better chance of acquiring momentum if the majority of teams that you play for a stretch of games lose 70 or 80% of the time? And does the probability that you will win increase when you play teams that lose at that same rate?

if lin is not there to play in those games the knicks do not win those games and the season is over. but he is there and the knicks are still in it.

SIMPLE

Ok. How about this. Any team, not the Knicks, has a run in their schedule where they face teams that lose at a rate previously described. This team doesn't have Jeremy Lin. Does the random team have a better chance of acquiring momentum where the majority of teams tthey face lose 70-80% of their games? Is the probability that they will win higher? All hypotheticals but just curious.

no need to deal in hypotheticals when reality and facts are readily available:

they started the season without a true point guard and carmelo anthony sort of as point forward-- i guess-- and went 8-15. fact.

i do not know what the overall quality of opponent was but they were playing .350 ball and were headed to the lottery. fact.

no point guard to run d'antoni's offense. fact.

jeremy lin came in and they went 10-3, starting with the nets. fact. and with a point guard to run d'antoni's offense. fact. [side note: first game with lin melo plays and stinks it up; second game he gets injured.]

carmelo anthony comes back and the knicks lose to the nets, the first team and victim of the lin streak. fact.

carmelo anthony dogs it for d'antoni. fact.

the knicks then go on a massive losing streak, including six losses in a row, this after anthony returns. fact.

d'antoni goes to the gm and asks that a trade be made, anthony for williams. the answer is no and d'antoni resigns. fact.

woodson comes in and anthony admits he is playing harder for woodson. fact.

Done and Done!!

tkf wrote:

foosballnick wrote:

dk7th wrote:

foosballnick wrote:

tkf wrote:

foosballnick wrote:

fishmike wrote:

foosballnick wrote:

tkf wrote:

dk7th wrote:

tkf wrote:

foosballnick wrote:TKF,

I'm sorry but the argument you are presenting does not appear to be logical.

You made a claim in this thread that Melo has Damaged the Knicks by being here. And backed that claim up by stating that he was responsible for essentially being the Knicks GM by forcing himself here and trading himself to the Knicks for assets. o

Here's the problem with this argument. The Knicks (Dolan/Walsh) were not forced to trade for Melo, they were the ones who agreed to the trade with Denver. If Melo did not want to wait for Free Agency....they could have went in a different direction. You can not assign blame to Melo for a decision that was made by Dolan. If you want to assign blame to Dolan for where the team is with regards to roster, cap space and picks, then you have a point.

Secondly - the Knicks are essentially the same franchise they were prior to Melo arriving. One could even argue that they had better in season results and achieved the playoffs more often with Melo then without him. So I am hard pressed to understand how he has damaged the Knicks.

I explained that.. he was a co conspirator with dolan. If you just see him as some innocent bystander then really I can't help you.

let me ask you this. did carmelo have nanything to do with how he got here? answer that first...

no melo is an innocent victim who was pulled into the evil dolan vortex and now he is being martyred because the franchise he so badly wanted to play for has betrayed him by not properly building around him.

honestly the degree of infantilizing around here of this douche is disturbing

it is very disturbing. No one around here gets that kind of rope.. yet we hear the excuse now. "well I root for whoever is on this team"... I will keep that in mind the next time the felton and tyson chandler bashing starts...

No one will accept that carmelo helped Denver get a better deal than they probably should have, and he allowed the nets to drive the price up on the knicks. I think that was just cowardly and disloyal to a team that you were trying to come to.... yes he is a douche...

So essentially when your argument is weak, you guys resort to name calling.

Melo wanted to come to the Knicks and also wanted to avoid Free Agency. So what. That still does not make him culpable for any of the assets that the Knicks sent in order to obtain him. Dolan coveted Melo and was willing to part with a bunch of players and picks to obtain him. If Dolan did not want Melo on the Knicks, it would not have mattered in any way what Melo did or said during that period of time. You can continue to manufacture subjective opinions of why everyone should despise a player. You can also continue to say ugly things about another person that you don't even know.....that just makes you appear to be ugly inside as well. If t, ithat's how you want to be thought of on this board.....great.

I'm done with this thread. If you want to claim victory in how much damage Melo has done to the Knicks.....go for it.

every now and then someone actually addresses TFK's comments seriously. Let this be a lesson.

I'll break my word on being done with this thread just to respond to Fish's post. I intentionally tried to keep my comments with TKF serious and professional without engaging in name-calling to see where it would go. Predictably it went to the same place it always seems to do......TKF posting something condescending by thinking he is smarter and teaching us a lesson because "we seem confused". Not really a big deal, the super insecure apparently need to continually talk about how superior they are in order to make themselves feel better.

so instead of defending your argument.. you are going to take the bailout that I called carmelo a douche.. I didn't call you a nane at all. you see what you are doing is bailing out.. and I understand, you have yet to answer any of mine or DK's questions regarding carmelo and his role in this mess...

I find it odd that you are so offended that I called carmelo a "name", yet DK and i have been called all types of names and we didn't cost the knicks any draft picks or money..

I'm not offended by your name calling. It's difficult to have a reasonable discussion with you because you resort to name calling (such as Melo is a douche, clown, small minded, arrogant etc) which both detracts and distracts from any forum discussion. Further, you are attempting to pull the discussion in a direction where there are no known facts, only subjective opinions. There is no way any of us know about the extent or details of Melo's involvement in any trade discussions with Denver. You are demanding an answer from me to this question, when you don't know the answer yourself.

You're saying that I bailed out instead of defending my argument or answering your question.

You asked about the extent of Melo's involvement in the trade discussions - my answer is I don't know.....and neither do you. You choose to use your opinion on this question as if it were a fact, in order to try and defend your point. It is impossible to have a reasonable discussion with someone who believes that their opinions are facts.

You contend that Melo damaged the Knicks mainly because of the trade and the assets he forced Dolan to trade for himself while he was still on the Nuggets. You also contend that Melo is to blame for not becoming a Free Agent and signing with the Knicks.

I contend that Dolan was solely responsible for any trade damage - and since we do not know the inner workings of Melo's involvement, we can not factually assign blame to him. I also contend that Melo had the right to become a free agent, just as Dolan had the right and power to not trade with Denver and take a pass on Melo (or take his chances if Melo entered free agency).

Further - I contend that the Knicks performance on the court after Melo arrived produced better results during the regular season as well as more frequent playoff appearances than the 3-10 years prior to his arrival. I also contend that neither before nor after Melo's arrival - where the Knicks a Championship caliber team.

So in summary.......

Dolan was responsible for trading away assets
Knicks performance was better after Melo arrived
Knicks revenue was better after Melo arrived
Knicks championship chances were not obtainable either before/after Melo

Melo seems to have had a net positive result for the Knicks.....and you are claiming that he damaged the franchise solely based upon you placing Melo above Dolan in the Knicks decision making hierarchy.....while he was still with the Nuggets.

Your response to all of this was....."so you believe Melo was an innocent bystander....blah blah blah". The question you ask has little or nothing to do with the point you are trying to defend. Whether or not (nor the extent that) Melo was involved in the trade discussions for himself is a moot point. Dolan is the decision maker with the Knicks....and fully accountable for what assets get shipped out in trades etc.

So continue to try and convince everyone that people bail out of conversations with you because you are so smart or they are so confused. You continue to obfuscate any reasonable dialog because you have a habit of presenting opinions as facts, talking in circles and using expletives to detract from the subject matter.

1) you are hiding behind the correlation/causation fallacy, except in reverse
2) the only relevant comparison is to the 28-26 knicks the year he "arrived." 127-103 for a .552 winning percentage. looks okay, a little better than average but consider that without lin they miss the playoffs and without kidd they are a .500 team.
3) utterly irrelevant to being a winner
4) then why the hell come here in the first place unless for a money grab and an ego trip?!?

I think you may be missing the point being debated. TKF presented a statement that Melo has personally damaged the Knicks. In order to understand if that statement is true, one would have to do a before and after analysis, which I have attempted to perform on a high level summary.

As to your points......

1) There is no fallacy. Dolan was and is the responsible decision maker for giving up assets....are you disputing that point? Even if there was any kind of collusion with Melo as to the trade assets (which has not been proven)......Dolan is still the decision maker.

2) The claim was that Melo damaged the Knicks. If this was the case, the winning percentage should be lower after his arrival.

3) Whether or not Melo is a winner has nothing to do with the argument. If Melo damaged the Knicks their revenue might have been affected adversely. The comparison relevant to the argument in question is revenue before and after Melo arrived.

4) Why Melo came to the Knicks and his ego or money grab is not relevant to the argument. The point being debated is if Melo damaged the Knicks through this data point comparing of the Knicks championship chances before and after Melo's arrival.

The summary is that Melo did not damage the Knicks. They have certainly been damaged by poorly run management in recent years, but that is another argument.

saying that dolan gave up the assets is just your way of trying to acquit carmelo. You do know that walsh was reluctant actually didn't want to give up that many assets and then carmelo called a meeting with dolan and he said " I want to see how much they really want me" carmelo knew that pushing the issue the knicks were giving up the necessary assets to build a team. either he didn't care or was too stupid to realize this.. I say a combo of both... but if carmelo really cared about the knicks and winning he could have waited and signed as a free agent.. and i don't want to hear about the lock out...He still had the choice, wanting to force a trade before the lockout only shows even more where his priorities were.. so yes he did damage the team. We lost assets, picks, and we just finished the season as a lottery team with no pick... he played a part in that!!

If Melo damaged the Knicks their revenue might have been affected adversely.

are you kidding me? so what you are saying as long as the knicks make money everything is good? is that the dolan school of franchise ownership? funny you say that, I am sure jeremy lin was making a boat load of money for the knicks.. but wasn't carmelo the one that called his contract offer "ridiculous"????

Why Melo came to the Knicks and his ego or money grab is not relevant to the argument. The point being debated is if Melo damaged the Knicks through this data point comparing of the Knicks championship chances before and after Melo's arrival.

oh really? so us being a lottery team and not having a pick because of carmelos choice to force his way here the way he did, didn't damage the knicks? let me ask you, how do you feel about not having a lottery pick in this draft? are we better for it or not? is you think no damage was done by carmelo then you are pretty much saying we are better off without the pick.. remember all of this is going on while he is parading around talking about opting out... smh

CrushAlot wrote:

gunsnewing wrote:It's amazing that all the GM's that walked through that msg door. None knew enough to put protection on lottery picks.

Astonishing

Just isiah and Walsh I believe. Did layden give away any lottery picks?

He traded Camby and the 7th pick in 2002 (Nene) for Antonio McDyess. He traded a few other late 1st rounders in the Ewing, Othella Harrington, and Mark Jackson trades.

dk7th wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

dk7th wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

tkf wrote:

dk7th wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

dk7th wrote:

foosballnick wrote:

tkf wrote:

foosballnick wrote:

fishmike wrote:

foosballnick wrote:

tkf wrote:

dk7th wrote:

tkf wrote:

foosballnick wrote:TKF,

I'm sorry but the argument you are presenting does not appear to be logical.

You made a claim in this thread that Melo has Damaged the Knicks by being here. And backed that claim up by stating that he was responsible for essentially being the Knicks GM by forcing himself here and trading himself to the Knicks for assets. o

Here's the problem with this argument. The Knicks (Dolan/Walsh) were not forced to trade for Melo, they were the ones who agreed to the trade with Denver. If Melo did not want to wait for Free Agency....they could have went in a different direction. You can not assign blame to Melo for a decision that was made by Dolan. If you want to assign blame to Dolan for where the team is with regards to roster, cap space and picks, then you have a point.

Secondly - the Knicks are essentially the same franchise they were prior to Melo arriving. One could even argue that they had better in season results and achieved the playoffs more often with Melo then without him. So I am hard pressed to understand how he has damaged the Knicks.

I explained that.. he was a co conspirator with dolan. If you just see him as some innocent bystander then really I can't help you.

let me ask you this. did carmelo have nanything to do with how he got here? answer that first...

no melo is an innocent victim who was pulled into the evil dolan vortex and now he is being martyred because the franchise he so badly wanted to play for has betrayed him by not properly building around him.

honestly the degree of infantilizing around here of this douche is disturbing

it is very disturbing. No one around here gets that kind of rope.. yet we hear the excuse now. "well I root for whoever is on this team"... I will keep that in mind the next time the felton and tyson chandler bashing starts...

No one will accept that carmelo helped Denver get a better deal than they probably should have, and he allowed the nets to drive the price up on the knicks. I think that was just cowardly and disloyal to a team that you were trying to come to.... yes he is a douche...

So essentially when your argument is weak, you guys resort to name calling.

Melo wanted to come to the Knicks and also wanted to avoid Free Agency. So what. That still does not make him culpable for any of the assets that the Knicks sent in order to obtain him. Dolan coveted Melo and was willing to part with a bunch of players and picks to obtain him. If Dolan did not want Melo on the Knicks, it would not have mattered in any way what Melo did or said during that period of time. You can continue to manufacture subjective opinions of why everyone should despise a player. You can also continue to say ugly things about another person that you don't even know.....that just makes you appear to be ugly inside as well. If t, ithat's how you want to be thought of on this board.....great.

I'm done with this thread. If you want to claim victory in how much damage Melo has done to the Knicks.....go for it.

every now and then someone actually addresses TFK's comments seriously. Let this be a lesson.

I'll break my word on being done with this thread just to respond to Fish's post. I intentionally tried to keep my comments with TKF serious and professional without engaging in name-calling to see where it would go. Predictably it went to the same place it always seems to do......TKF posting something condescending by thinking he is smarter and teaching us a lesson because "we seem confused". Not really a big deal, the super insecure apparently need to continually talk about how superior they are in order to make themselves feel better.

so instead of defending your argument.. you are going to take the bailout that I called carmelo a douche.. I didn't call you a nane at all. you see what you are doing is bailing out.. and I understand, you have yet to answer any of mine or DK's questions regarding carmelo and his role in this mess...

I find it odd that you are so offended that I called carmelo a "name", yet DK and i have been called all types of names and we didn't cost the knicks any draft picks or money..

I'm not offended by your name calling. It's difficult to have a reasonable discussion with you because you resort to name calling (such as Melo is a douche, clown, small minded, arrogant etc) which both detracts and distracts from any forum discussion. Further, you are attempting to pull the discussion in a direction where there are no known facts, only subjective opinions. There is no way any of us know about the extent or details of Melo's involvement in any trade discussions with Denver. You are demanding an answer from me to this question, when you don't know the answer yourself.

You're saying that I bailed out instead of defending my argument or answering your question.

You asked about the extent of Melo's involvement in the trade discussions - my answer is I don't know.....and neither do you. You choose to use your opinion on this question as if it were a fact, in order to try and defend your point. It is impossible to have a reasonable discussion with someone who believes that their opinions are facts.

You contend that Melo damaged the Knicks mainly because of the trade and the assets he forced Dolan to trade for himself while he was still on the Nuggets. You also contend that Melo is to blame for not becoming a Free Agent and signing with the Knicks.

I contend that Dolan was solely responsible for any trade damage - and since we do not know the inner workings of Melo's involvement, we can not factually assign blame to him. I also contend that Melo had the right to become a free agent, just as Dolan had the right and power to not trade with Denver and take a pass on Melo (or take his chances if Melo entered free agency).

Further - I contend that the Knicks performance on the court after Melo arrived produced better results during the regular season as well as more frequent playoff appearances than the 3-10 years prior to his arrival. I also contend that neither before nor after Melo's arrival - where the Knicks a Championship caliber team.

So in summary.......

Dolan was responsible for trading away assets
Knicks performance was better after Melo arrived
Knicks revenue was better after Melo arrived
Knicks championship chances were not obtainable either before/after Melo

Melo seems to have had a net positive result for the Knicks.....and you are claiming that he damaged the franchise solely based upon you placing Melo above Dolan in the Knicks decision making hierarchy.....while he was still with the Nuggets.

Your response to all of this was....."so you believe Melo was an innocent bystander....blah blah blah". The question you ask has little or nothing to do with the point you are trying to defend. Whether or not (nor the extent that) Melo was involved in the trade discussions for himself is a moot point. Dolan is the decision maker with the Knicks....and fully accountable for what assets get shipped out in trades etc.

So continue to try and convince everyone that people bail out of conversations with you because you are so smart or they are so confused. You continue to obfuscate any reasonable dialog because you have a habit of presenting opinions as facts, talking in circles and using expletives to detract from the subject matter.

1) you are hiding behind the correlation/causation fallacy, except in reverse
2) the only relevant comparison is to the 28-26 knicks the year he "arrived." 127-103 for a .552 winning percentage. looks okay, a little better than average but consider that without lin they miss the playoffs and without kidd they are a .500 team.
3) utterly irrelevant to being a winner
4) then why the hell come here in the first place unless for a money grab and an ego trip?!?

The whole Lin is the reason the Knicks made the playoffs is pretty far fetched. The Knicks only played two teams over .500 in that run. The combined record of those teams was 42 games under .500. It was a nice run but 18-6 against teams trying to make the playoffs and a guy on the Knicks playing better than anyone else in the league in April while Lin was saving himself for free agency is why the Knicks made the playoffs.

the notion of momentum eludes you, both in your understanding of taking bad shots in a game by overpaid overrated low bbiq players and what happens in the course of a season when someone comes out of nowhere to rescue a team's season. the season would have been lost, utterly lost, had lin not emerged for that stretch. it gave the team hope, a reason to persevere, and they were able to build on that. honestly this is so simple. why must you continue to fluff this impotent wannabe and never was? he's gone anyway

absolutely mind boggling...

That momentum thing is pretty interesting. Glad you guys are here to explain it. Maybe you could help me out with a couple of more things I wonder about in regards to those seven games back in 2/11. Do you have a better chance of acquiring momentum if the majority of teams that you play for a stretch of games lose 70 or 80% of the time? And does the probability that you will win increase when you play teams that lose at that same rate?

if lin is not there to play in those games the knicks do not win those games and the season is over. but he is there and the knicks are still in it.

SIMPLE

Ok. How about this. Any team, not the Knicks, has a run in their schedule where they face teams that lose at a rate previously described. This team doesn't have Jeremy Lin. Does the random team have a better chance of acquiring momentum where the majority of teams tthey face lose 70-80% of their games? Is the probability that they will win higher? All hypotheticals but just curious.

no need to deal in hypotheticals when reality and facts are readily available:

they started the season without a true point guard and carmelo anthony sort of as point forward-- i guess-- and went 8-15. fact.

i do not know what the overall quality of opponent was but they were playing .350 ball and were headed to the lottery. fact.

no point guard to run d'antoni's offense. fact.

jeremy lin came in and they went 10-3, starting with the nets. fact. and with a point guard to run d'antoni's offense. fact. [side note: first game with lin melo plays and stinks it up; second game he gets injured.]

carmelo anthony comes back and the knicks lose to the nets, the first team and victim of the lin streak. fact.

carmelo anthony dogs it for d'antoni. fact.

the knicks then go on a massive losing streak, including six losses in a row, this after anthony returns. fact.

d'antoni goes to the gm and asks that a trade be made, anthony for williams. the answer is no and d'antoni resigns. fact.

woodson comes in and anthony admits he is playing harder for woodson. fact.

Vs the Nets Deron Williams ate Lin's food which is why we lost. Williams was extra motivated since Linsanity started against him.

Anthony took a step back to Lin when he came back but Lin kept getting trapped and turning the ball over becoming more of a liability then an asset at that point in time.

MDA resigns Woodson puts the ball back in Melo's hands. Lin, Amare, Chandler all go down with injury and Melo puts the Knicks on his back to make the playoffs.

newyorknewyork wrote:

dk7th wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

dk7th wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

tkf wrote:

dk7th wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

dk7th wrote:

foosballnick wrote:

tkf wrote:

foosballnick wrote:

fishmike wrote:

foosballnick wrote:

tkf wrote:

dk7th wrote:

tkf wrote:

foosballnick wrote:TKF,

I'm sorry but the argument you are presenting does not appear to be logical.

You made a claim in this thread that Melo has Damaged the Knicks by being here. And backed that claim up by stating that he was responsible for essentially being the Knicks GM by forcing himself here and trading himself to the Knicks for assets. o

Here's the problem with this argument. The Knicks (Dolan/Walsh) were not forced to trade for Melo, they were the ones who agreed to the trade with Denver. If Melo did not want to wait for Free Agency....they could have went in a different direction. You can not assign blame to Melo for a decision that was made by Dolan. If you want to assign blame to Dolan for where the team is with regards to roster, cap space and picks, then you have a point.

Secondly - the Knicks are essentially the same franchise they were prior to Melo arriving. One could even argue that they had better in season results and achieved the playoffs more often with Melo then without him. So I am hard pressed to understand how he has damaged the Knicks.

I explained that.. he was a co conspirator with dolan. If you just see him as some innocent bystander then really I can't help you.

let me ask you this. did carmelo have nanything to do with how he got here? answer that first...

no melo is an innocent victim who was pulled into the evil dolan vortex and now he is being martyred because the franchise he so badly wanted to play for has betrayed him by not properly building around him.

honestly the degree of infantilizing around here of this douche is disturbing

it is very disturbing. No one around here gets that kind of rope.. yet we hear the excuse now. "well I root for whoever is on this team"... I will keep that in mind the next time the felton and tyson chandler bashing starts...

No one will accept that carmelo helped Denver get a better deal than they probably should have, and he allowed the nets to drive the price up on the knicks. I think that was just cowardly and disloyal to a team that you were trying to come to.... yes he is a douche...

So essentially when your argument is weak, you guys resort to name calling.

Melo wanted to come to the Knicks and also wanted to avoid Free Agency. So what. That still does not make him culpable for any of the assets that the Knicks sent in order to obtain him. Dolan coveted Melo and was willing to part with a bunch of players and picks to obtain him. If Dolan did not want Melo on the Knicks, it would not have mattered in any way what Melo did or said during that period of time. You can continue to manufacture subjective opinions of why everyone should despise a player. You can also continue to say ugly things about another person that you don't even know.....that just makes you appear to be ugly inside as well. If t, ithat's how you want to be thought of on this board.....great.

I'm done with this thread. If you want to claim victory in how much damage Melo has done to the Knicks.....go for it.

every now and then someone actually addresses TFK's comments seriously. Let this be a lesson.

I'll break my word on being done with this thread just to respond to Fish's post. I intentionally tried to keep my comments with TKF serious and professional without engaging in name-calling to see where it would go. Predictably it went to the same place it always seems to do......TKF posting something condescending by thinking he is smarter and teaching us a lesson because "we seem confused". Not really a big deal, the super insecure apparently need to continually talk about how superior they are in order to make themselves feel better.

so instead of defending your argument.. you are going to take the bailout that I called carmelo a douche.. I didn't call you a nane at all. you see what you are doing is bailing out.. and I understand, you have yet to answer any of mine or DK's questions regarding carmelo and his role in this mess...

I find it odd that you are so offended that I called carmelo a "name", yet DK and i have been called all types of names and we didn't cost the knicks any draft picks or money..

I'm not offended by your name calling. It's difficult to have a reasonable discussion with you because you resort to name calling (such as Melo is a douche, clown, small minded, arrogant etc) which both detracts and distracts from any forum discussion. Further, you are attempting to pull the discussion in a direction where there are no known facts, only subjective opinions. There is no way any of us know about the extent or details of Melo's involvement in any trade discussions with Denver. You are demanding an answer from me to this question, when you don't know the answer yourself.

You're saying that I bailed out instead of defending my argument or answering your question.

You asked about the extent of Melo's involvement in the trade discussions - my answer is I don't know.....and neither do you. You choose to use your opinion on this question as if it were a fact, in order to try and defend your point. It is impossible to have a reasonable discussion with someone who believes that their opinions are facts.

You contend that Melo damaged the Knicks mainly because of the trade and the assets he forced Dolan to trade for himself while he was still on the Nuggets. You also contend that Melo is to blame for not becoming a Free Agent and signing with the Knicks.

I contend that Dolan was solely responsible for any trade damage - and since we do not know the inner workings of Melo's involvement, we can not factually assign blame to him. I also contend that Melo had the right to become a free agent, just as Dolan had the right and power to not trade with Denver and take a pass on Melo (or take his chances if Melo entered free agency).

Further - I contend that the Knicks performance on the court after Melo arrived produced better results during the regular season as well as more frequent playoff appearances than the 3-10 years prior to his arrival. I also contend that neither before nor after Melo's arrival - where the Knicks a Championship caliber team.

So in summary.......

Dolan was responsible for trading away assets
Knicks performance was better after Melo arrived
Knicks revenue was better after Melo arrived
Knicks championship chances were not obtainable either before/after Melo

Melo seems to have had a net positive result for the Knicks.....and you are claiming that he damaged the franchise solely based upon you placing Melo above Dolan in the Knicks decision making hierarchy.....while he was still with the Nuggets.

Your response to all of this was....."so you believe Melo was an innocent bystander....blah blah blah". The question you ask has little or nothing to do with the point you are trying to defend. Whether or not (nor the extent that) Melo was involved in the trade discussions for himself is a moot point. Dolan is the decision maker with the Knicks....and fully accountable for what assets get shipped out in trades etc.

So continue to try and convince everyone that people bail out of conversations with you because you are so smart or they are so confused. You continue to obfuscate any reasonable dialog because you have a habit of presenting opinions as facts, talking in circles and using expletives to detract from the subject matter.

1) you are hiding behind the correlation/causation fallacy, except in reverse
2) the only relevant comparison is to the 28-26 knicks the year he "arrived." 127-103 for a .552 winning percentage. looks okay, a little better than average but consider that without lin they miss the playoffs and without kidd they are a .500 team.
3) utterly irrelevant to being a winner
4) then why the hell come here in the first place unless for a money grab and an ego trip?!?

The whole Lin is the reason the Knicks made the playoffs is pretty far fetched. The Knicks only played two teams over .500 in that run. The combined record of those teams was 42 games under .500. It was a nice run but 18-6 against teams trying to make the playoffs and a guy on the Knicks playing better than anyone else in the league in April while Lin was saving himself for free agency is why the Knicks made the playoffs.

the notion of momentum eludes you, both in your understanding of taking bad shots in a game by overpaid overrated low bbiq players and what happens in the course of a season when someone comes out of nowhere to rescue a team's season. the season would have been lost, utterly lost, had lin not emerged for that stretch. it gave the team hope, a reason to persevere, and they were able to build on that. honestly this is so simple. why must you continue to fluff this impotent wannabe and never was? he's gone anyway

absolutely mind boggling...

That momentum thing is pretty interesting. Glad you guys are here to explain it. Maybe you could help me out with a couple of more things I wonder about in regards to those seven games back in 2/11. Do you have a better chance of acquiring momentum if the majority of teams that you play for a stretch of games lose 70 or 80% of the time? And does the probability that you will win increase when you play teams that lose at that same rate?

if lin is not there to play in those games the knicks do not win those games and the season is over. but he is there and the knicks are still in it.

SIMPLE

Ok. How about this. Any team, not the Knicks, has a run in their schedule where they face teams that lose at a rate previously described. This team doesn't have Jeremy Lin. Does the random team have a better chance of acquiring momentum where the majority of teams tthey face lose 70-80% of their games? Is the probability that they will win higher? All hypotheticals but just curious.

no need to deal in hypotheticals when reality and facts are readily available:

they started the season without a true point guard and carmelo anthony sort of as point forward-- i guess-- and went 8-15. fact.

i do not know what the overall quality of opponent was but they were playing .350 ball and were headed to the lottery. fact.

no point guard to run d'antoni's offense. fact.

jeremy lin came in and they went 10-3, starting with the nets. fact. and with a point guard to run d'antoni's offense. fact. [side note: first game with lin melo plays and stinks it up; second game he gets injured.]

carmelo anthony comes back and the knicks lose to the nets, the first team and victim of the lin streak. fact.

carmelo anthony dogs it for d'antoni. fact.

the knicks then go on a massive losing streak, including six losses in a row, this after anthony returns. fact.

d'antoni goes to the gm and asks that a trade be made, anthony for williams. the answer is no and d'antoni resigns. fact.

woodson comes in and anthony admits he is playing harder for woodson. fact.

Vs the Nets Deron Williams ate Lin's food which is why we lost. Williams was extra motivated since Linsanity started against him.

Anthony took a step back to Lin when he came back but Lin kept getting trapped and turning the ball over becoming more of a liability then an asset at that point in time.

MDA resigns Woodson puts the ball back in Melo's hands. Lin, Amare, Chandler all go down with injury and Melo puts the Knicks on his back to make the playoffs.

or as some say, it was woodson's coaching.... that was the talk at the time, until of course this mess fell apart again, woodson is fired and the villain and carmelo is just the innocent bystander ..... again..