[ IMAGES: Images ON turn off | ACCOUNT: User Status is LOCKED why? ]

Coaching Staff Relieved of Duties
Author Thread
dk7th
Posts: 30006
Alba Posts: 1
Joined: 5/14/2012
Member: #4228
USA
4/21/2014  10:39 PM
holfresh wrote:
dk7th wrote:
holfresh wrote:
dk7th wrote:
holfresh wrote:
Clean wrote:
holfresh wrote:
Clean wrote:
holfresh wrote:I get it, when a team like the Knicks miss the playoffs with a 37 win season, then heads should roll...I'll say this tho, Woodson got a raw deal...I'm a little surprised many here who saw the results with Woody as head coach are so happy to see him go..Interesting...

Many here are already endorsing the triangle like it was handed down from Noah during the great flood(bootleg alert, Lupica)...We will see..I hope it doesn't stop there, this entire roster need to be overhauled starting with Tyson Chandler(many here had as a leader)..Tyson was the first to throw Woodson under the bus and jump into the lifeboat saying me first...

Phil's era has begun...

Who would not like to see him go after his horrid coaching in the playoffs. Every single playoff series I considered the Knicks to be at a disadvantage with coaching.

Who did the Knicks lose to in the playoffs that they should not have lost to?

I notice you did not address what I said but instead asked another question. So I wonder if you agree or disagree with my statement. Do you think Woody was a good coach in the playoffs? Do you think in any of our playoff series we had the advantage at the coaching position?


It ultimately comes down to the players on the court..In the NBA, it's all about the horses...If the games aren't close then you really don't see what difference a coach makes...I think coaching matters in terms of philosophy and the way a team approach playing, it's not an individual game thing...I don't think the games or the series were close where individual play calls and substitutions matter...We were clearly over matched on the court against Indy and Miami..

jackson is going to institute what he has called "system basketball." he is going to hire a coach that will be able to implement that system, and he will likely surround that coach with cheap veterans on the cusp of retirement that will help teach that system while also being a locker room stabilizing and pacifying presence. further, jackson will likely be looking to trade erratic and/or selfish players who he deems unfit to be coached or taught.

given your peculiar ethos and leanings i am afraid that you are not going to enjoy this edition of the knicks.

Well for me, it's never about the coaches or a system but about the talent on the court...All Jackson disciples has failed implementing his system..Phil Jackson is/was the talent not the triagle...Riley and Pop has a very distinguished coaching tree in the NBA, Phil has zero...Maybe he is trying to change that...I hope not at our expense...First up we signed a guy that was smoking crack a year ago...I stopped drinking the kool-aid after that...

never was a fan of odom's game but he has more value than chris smith. jackson is giving him a hand up and it may pay off and if it doesn't odom and his cheap short contract is gone.

jordan's pre-triangle teams struggled against the pistons if i recall. they started clicking once they got better players-- that is true-- but you have to give some credit to the triangle too for the dynastic success of chicago and los angeles. it probably acted as a force for cohesion and allowed role players to excel, something that jackson alluded to in the early interviews. it also allowed the players the opportunity to figure things out for themselves, something any holzman era knick fan should appreciate.

I think we can all agree the both Chicago and the Lakers had the talent to be the great teams they turned out to be..Do you think if Riley or Larry Brown were coaching them the results would have been different, I don't...I credit Phil Jackson as a great communicator and a great coach more than I credit the system...Phil knew what buttons to push to get the best out of his players...That doesn't occur because of a system...I think the mental game trumps any other game in the NBA, given you put in the hard work..Look at the Pacers, do u think the system they run is any different than last year??...

Pistons had a great coach and a great team..Played great defense and was deep...They could have won more if Isiah weren't so hurt..

all you're saying is that you like improvisation and freedom. i don't think that playing within a system necessarily harms either freedom or improvisation. they are not mutually exclusive and so far as i am concerned if a system makes people make better decisions or converts inefficient scorers into better playmakers then i am all for it.

and if you were to ask me is melo capable here with all tnat i have said my answer is "yes"-- but for no more than 13-14 million.

capeesh?

knicks win 38-43 games in 16-17. rose MUST shoot no more than 14 shots per game, defer to kp6 + melo, and have a usage rate of less than 25%
AUTOADVERT
alwaysaknick
Posts: 20192
Alba Posts: 3
Joined: 12/9/2013
Member: #5711

4/22/2014  12:54 AM
Coaching staff relieved of duties. What a nice term. It seems that the coaching staff is suffered for a whole long time and in fact it is the fans to suffer.
Nalod
Posts: 71350
Alba Posts: 155
Joined: 12/24/2003
Member: #508
USA
4/22/2014  7:04 AM
I read that Woodson was a finalist in the Minny job which Adelman got, and in Detroit a few years back.

I think Woodson wanted the "Deed done" so he could pursue opportunities as they present themselves.

While we might think he is the worlds worst coach others might not. Generally we overpay and undermine coaching talent in the garden.

The good ones (Riles and JVG) leave on their own. The HOF ones get "Relieved" (Larry, Lenny). MDA "Resigned" but we all know the gig was up for him. Isiah at least had the good graces to not get himself arrested although he did try to kill himself. Thats one way to leave MSG!

gunsnewing
Posts: 55076
Alba Posts: 5
Joined: 2/24/2002
Member: #215
USA
4/22/2014  7:17 AM
Guess will find out. My guess he winds up at SMU with larry
holfresh
Posts: 38679
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 1/14/2006
Member: #1081

4/22/2014  8:35 AM    LAST EDITED: 4/22/2014  8:43 AM
dk7th wrote:
holfresh wrote:
dk7th wrote:
holfresh wrote:
dk7th wrote:
holfresh wrote:
Clean wrote:
holfresh wrote:
Clean wrote:
holfresh wrote:I get it, when a team like the Knicks miss the playoffs with a 37 win season, then heads should roll...I'll say this tho, Woodson got a raw deal...I'm a little surprised many here who saw the results with Woody as head coach are so happy to see him go..Interesting...

Many here are already endorsing the triangle like it was handed down from Noah during the great flood(bootleg alert, Lupica)...We will see..I hope it doesn't stop there, this entire roster need to be overhauled starting with Tyson Chandler(many here had as a leader)..Tyson was the first to throw Woodson under the bus and jump into the lifeboat saying me first...

Phil's era has begun...

Who would not like to see him go after his horrid coaching in the playoffs. Every single playoff series I considered the Knicks to be at a disadvantage with coaching.

Who did the Knicks lose to in the playoffs that they should not have lost to?

I notice you did not address what I said but instead asked another question. So I wonder if you agree or disagree with my statement. Do you think Woody was a good coach in the playoffs? Do you think in any of our playoff series we had the advantage at the coaching position?


It ultimately comes down to the players on the court..In the NBA, it's all about the horses...If the games aren't close then you really don't see what difference a coach makes...I think coaching matters in terms of philosophy and the way a team approach playing, it's not an individual game thing...I don't think the games or the series were close where individual play calls and substitutions matter...We were clearly over matched on the court against Indy and Miami..

jackson is going to institute what he has called "system basketball." he is going to hire a coach that will be able to implement that system, and he will likely surround that coach with cheap veterans on the cusp of retirement that will help teach that system while also being a locker room stabilizing and pacifying presence. further, jackson will likely be looking to trade erratic and/or selfish players who he deems unfit to be coached or taught.

given your peculiar ethos and leanings i am afraid that you are not going to enjoy this edition of the knicks.

Well for me, it's never about the coaches or a system but about the talent on the court...All Jackson disciples has failed implementing his system..Phil Jackson is/was the talent not the triagle...Riley and Pop has a very distinguished coaching tree in the NBA, Phil has zero...Maybe he is trying to change that...I hope not at our expense...First up we signed a guy that was smoking crack a year ago...I stopped drinking the kool-aid after that...

never was a fan of odom's game but he has more value than chris smith. jackson is giving him a hand up and it may pay off and if it doesn't odom and his cheap short contract is gone.

jordan's pre-triangle teams struggled against the pistons if i recall. they started clicking once they got better players-- that is true-- but you have to give some credit to the triangle too for the dynastic success of chicago and los angeles. it probably acted as a force for cohesion and allowed role players to excel, something that jackson alluded to in the early interviews. it also allowed the players the opportunity to figure things out for themselves, something any holzman era knick fan should appreciate.

I think we can all agree the both Chicago and the Lakers had the talent to be the great teams they turned out to be..Do you think if Riley or Larry Brown were coaching them the results would have been different, I don't...I credit Phil Jackson as a great communicator and a great coach more than I credit the system...Phil knew what buttons to push to get the best out of his players...That doesn't occur because of a system...I think the mental game trumps any other game in the NBA, given you put in the hard work..Look at the Pacers, do u think the system they run is any different than last year??...

Pistons had a great coach and a great team..Played great defense and was deep...They could have won more if Isiah weren't so hurt..

all you're saying is that you like improvisation and freedom. i don't think that playing within a system necessarilfy harms either freedom or improvisation. they are not mutually exclusive and so far as i am concerned if a system makes people make better decisions or converts inefficient scorers into better playmakers then i am all for it.

and if you were to ask me is melo capable here with all tnat i have said my answer is "yes"-- but for no more than 13-14 million.

capeesh?

No, what I am saying is that I think it better to create an offense or style of play that best suits the capabilities of your players..Riley was very successful doing that..U narrow the field of quality coaches when u elect to run a system.. Like JVG or a few of the college coaches I mentioned in other threads vs. Kerr for example..I think a good coach trumps a good system..

Ah, did u just give Melo a 2 mil raise on your previous offer??..Feeling the pressure of him opting out??..He is approaching Deng type value..

dk7th
Posts: 30006
Alba Posts: 1
Joined: 5/14/2012
Member: #4228
USA
4/22/2014  9:24 AM
holfresh wrote:
dk7th wrote:
holfresh wrote:
dk7th wrote:
holfresh wrote:
dk7th wrote:
holfresh wrote:
Clean wrote:
holfresh wrote:
Clean wrote:
holfresh wrote:I get it, when a team like the Knicks miss the playoffs with a 37 win season, then heads should roll...I'll say this tho, Woodson got a raw deal...I'm a little surprised many here who saw the results with Woody as head coach are so happy to see him go..Interesting...

Many here are already endorsing the triangle like it was handed down from Noah during the great flood(bootleg alert, Lupica)...We will see..I hope it doesn't stop there, this entire roster need to be overhauled starting with Tyson Chandler(many here had as a leader)..Tyson was the first to throw Woodson under the bus and jump into the lifeboat saying me first...

Phil's era has begun...

Who would not like to see him go after his horrid coaching in the playoffs. Every single playoff series I considered the Knicks to be at a disadvantage with coaching.

Who did the Knicks lose to in the playoffs that they should not have lost to?

I notice you did not address what I said but instead asked another question. So I wonder if you agree or disagree with my statement. Do you think Woody was a good coach in the playoffs? Do you think in any of our playoff series we had the advantage at the coaching position?


It ultimately comes down to the players on the court..In the NBA, it's all about the horses...If the games aren't close then you really don't see what difference a coach makes...I think coaching matters in terms of philosophy and the way a team approach playing, it's not an individual game thing...I don't think the games or the series were close where individual play calls and substitutions matter...We were clearly over matched on the court against Indy and Miami..

jackson is going to institute what he has called "system basketball." he is going to hire a coach that will be able to implement that system, and he will likely surround that coach with cheap veterans on the cusp of retirement that will help teach that system while also being a locker room stabilizing and pacifying presence. further, jackson will likely be looking to trade erratic and/or selfish players who he deems unfit to be coached or taught.

given your peculiar ethos and leanings i am afraid that you are not going to enjoy this edition of the knicks.

Well for me, it's never about the coaches or a system but about the talent on the court...All Jackson disciples has failed implementing his system..Phil Jackson is/was the talent not the triagle...Riley and Pop has a very distinguished coaching tree in the NBA, Phil has zero...Maybe he is trying to change that...I hope not at our expense...First up we signed a guy that was smoking crack a year ago...I stopped drinking the kool-aid after that...

never was a fan of odom's game but he has more value than chris smith. jackson is giving him a hand up and it may pay off and if it doesn't odom and his cheap short contract is gone.

jordan's pre-triangle teams struggled against the pistons if i recall. they started clicking once they got better players-- that is true-- but you have to give some credit to the triangle too for the dynastic success of chicago and los angeles. it probably acted as a force for cohesion and allowed role players to excel, something that jackson alluded to in the early interviews. it also allowed the players the opportunity to figure things out for themselves, something any holzman era knick fan should appreciate.

I think we can all agree the both Chicago and the Lakers had the talent to be the great teams they turned out to be..Do you think if Riley or Larry Brown were coaching them the results would have been different, I don't...I credit Phil Jackson as a great communicator and a great coach more than I credit the system...Phil knew what buttons to push to get the best out of his players...That doesn't occur because of a system...I think the mental game trumps any other game in the NBA, given you put in the hard work..Look at the Pacers, do u think the system they run is any different than last year??...

Pistons had a great coach and a great team..Played great defense and was deep...They could have won more if Isiah weren't so hurt..

all you're saying is that you like improvisation and freedom. i don't think that playing within a system necessarilfy harms either freedom or improvisation. they are not mutually exclusive and so far as i am concerned if a system makes people make better decisions or converts inefficient scorers into better playmakers then i am all for it.

and if you were to ask me is melo capable here with all tnat i have said my answer is "yes"-- but for no more than 13-14 million.

capeesh?

No, what I am saying is that I think it better to create an offense or style of play that best suits the capabilities of your players..Riley was very successful doing that..U narrow the field of quality coaches when u elect to run a system.. Like JVG or a few of the college coaches I mentioned in other threads vs. Kerr for example..I think a good coach trumps a good system..

Ah, did u just give Melo a 2 mil raise on your previous offer??..Feeling the pressure of him opting out??..He is approaching Deng type value..

ideally he signs for 12-13 because that makes it easier to get better players. i think you suffer diminishing returns above that figure of 13 million and for me 14 million is a stopping point. knicks can't afford to take a chance on melo learning to play the right way at a cost any higher than that-- he is basically the same player he always was so his taking it to the next level is not a given.

you should list the championship winning coaches who have coached without a system or a prevailing philosophy.

knicks win 38-43 games in 16-17. rose MUST shoot no more than 14 shots per game, defer to kp6 + melo, and have a usage rate of less than 25%
fishmike
Posts: 53864
Alba Posts: 1
Joined: 7/19/2002
Member: #298
USA
4/22/2014  9:27 AM
holfresh good post... Riley went from showtime to drag it out slow it up beat em up half court in NY... because thats what best fit his roster.

Now Phil doesnt just get to build the roster, because there are guys under contract here. There isnt an untradable player on the Knicks with Amare/Chandler/Bargs all in their walk years. But what you get back is a different story.

I agree that good coaching and talent always trumps a system. Good coaches adjust. I actually thought the triangle got exposed by Larry Brown's Pistons. Obviously that was a great team going to b2b finals and winning a title, but they totally dismantled the Lakers in what should have been a sweep if not for a sick heave from Fisher to win their one game.

That being said its hard to call the triangle restrictive... its just about spacing and cutting.

Bottom line is in Phil we trust. He's going to build the staff. It will be interesting to see what direction he goes in, but if Odom and Gasol rumors tell you anything its rebuild with vets and duplicated the 50+ win season last year.

"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
holfresh
Posts: 38679
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 1/14/2006
Member: #1081

4/22/2014  9:39 AM
fishmike wrote:holfresh good post... Riley went from showtime to drag it out slow it up beat em up half court in NY... because thats what best fit his roster.

Now Phil doesnt just get to build the roster, because there are guys under contract here. There isnt an untradable player on the Knicks with Amare/Chandler/Bargs all in their walk years. But what you get back is a different story.

I agree that good coaching and talent always trumps a system. Good coaches adjust. I actually thought the triangle got exposed by Larry Brown's Pistons. Obviously that was a great team going to b2b finals and winning a title, but they totally dismantled the Lakers in what should have been a sweep if not for a sick heave from Fisher to win their one game.

That being said its hard to call the triangle restrictive... its just about spacing and cutting.

Bottom line is in Phil we trust. He's going to build the staff. It will be interesting to see what direction he goes in, but if Odom and Gasol rumors tell you anything its rebuild with vets and duplicated the 50+ win season last year.

Restrictive in who we choose to coach it...

holfresh
Posts: 38679
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 1/14/2006
Member: #1081

4/22/2014  9:47 AM    LAST EDITED: 4/22/2014  9:49 AM
dk7th wrote:
holfresh wrote:
dk7th wrote:
holfresh wrote:
dk7th wrote:
holfresh wrote:
dk7th wrote:
holfresh wrote:
Clean wrote:
holfresh wrote:
Clean wrote:
holfresh wrote:I get it, when a team like the Knicks miss the playoffs with a 37 win season, then heads should roll...I'll say this tho, Woodson got a raw deal...I'm a little surprised many here who saw the results with Woody as head coach are so happy to see him go..Interesting...

Many here are already endorsing the triangle like it was handed down from Noah during the great flood(bootleg alert, Lupica)...We will see..I hope it doesn't stop there, this entire roster need to be overhauled starting with Tyson Chandler(many here had as a leader)..Tyson was the first to throw Woodson under the bus and jump into the lifeboat saying me first...

Phil's era has begun...

Who would not like to see him go after his horrid coaching in the playoffs. Every single playoff series I considered the Knicks to be at a disadvantage with coaching.

Who did the Knicks lose to in the playoffs that they should not have lost to?

I notice you did not address what I said but instead asked another question. So I wonder if you agree or disagree with my statement. Do you think Woody was a good coach in the playoffs? Do you think in any of our playoff series we had the advantage at the coaching position?


It ultimately comes down to the players on the court..In the NBA, it's all about the horses...If the games aren't close then you really don't see what difference a coach makes...I think coaching matters in terms of philosophy and the way a team approach playing, it's not an individual game thing...I don't think the games or the series were close where individual play calls and substitutions matter...We were clearly over matched on the court against Indy and Miami..

jackson is going to institute what he has called "system basketball." he is going to hire a coach that will be able to implement that system, and he will likely surround that coach with cheap veterans on the cusp of retirement that will help teach that system while also being a locker room stabilizing and pacifying presence. further, jackson will likely be looking to trade erratic and/or selfish players who he deems unfit to be coached or taught.

given your peculiar ethos and leanings i am afraid that you are not going to enjoy this edition of the knicks.

Well for me, it's never about the coaches or a system but about the talent on the court...All Jackson disciples has failed implementing his system..Phil Jackson is/was the talent not the triagle...Riley and Pop has a very distinguished coaching tree in the NBA, Phil has zero...Maybe he is trying to change that...I hope not at our expense...First up we signed a guy that was smoking crack a year ago...I stopped drinking the kool-aid after that...

never was a fan of odom's game but he has more value than chris smith. jackson is giving him a hand up and it may pay off and if it doesn't odom and his cheap short contract is gone.

jordan's pre-triangle teams struggled against the pistons if i recall. they started clicking once they got better players-- that is true-- but you have to give some credit to the triangle too for the dynastic success of chicago and los angeles. it probably acted as a force for cohesion and allowed role players to excel, something that jackson alluded to in the early interviews. it also allowed the players the opportunity to figure things out for themselves, something any holzman era knick fan should appreciate.

I think we can all agree the both Chicago and the Lakers had the talent to be the great teams they turned out to be..Do you think if Riley or Larry Brown were coaching them the results would have been different, I don't...I credit Phil Jackson as a great communicator and a great coach more than I credit the system...Phil knew what buttons to push to get the best out of his players...That doesn't occur because of a system...I think the mental game trumps any other game in the NBA, given you put in the hard work..Look at the Pacers, do u think the system they run is any different than last year??...

Pistons had a great coach and a great team..Played great defense and was deep...They could have won more if Isiah weren't so hurt..

all you're saying is that you like improvisation and freedom. i don't think that playing within a system necessarilfy harms either freedom or improvisation. they are not mutually exclusive and so far as i am concerned if a system makes people make better decisions or converts inefficient scorers into better playmakers then i am all for it.

and if you were to ask me is melo capable here with all tnat i have said my answer is "yes"-- but for no more than 13-14 million.

capeesh?

No, what I am saying is that I think it better to create an offense or style of play that best suits the capabilities of your players..Riley was very successful doing that..U narrow the field of quality coaches when u elect to run a system.. Like JVG or a few of the college coaches I mentioned in other threads vs. Kerr for example..I think a good coach trumps a good system..

Ah, did u just give Melo a 2 mil raise on your previous offer??..Feeling the pressure of him opting out??..He is approaching Deng type value..

ideally he signs for 12-13 because that makes it easier to get better players. i think you suffer diminishing returns above that figure of 13 million and for me 14 million is a stopping point. knicks can't afford to take a chance on melo learning to play the right way at a cost any higher than that-- he is basically the same player he always was so his taking it to the next level is not a given.

you should list the championship winning coaches who have coached without a system or a prevailing philosophy.

Every coach has a philosophy but not a system...Riley, Doc Rivers, Pop, who just instituted what seems to be a system a few years back, Chuck Daly, Spolstra, Rudy T, all won without a system...Name the coaches who have won using a system outside of Phil, who happened to have the best players on the planet at the time...

knicks1248
Posts: 42059
Alba Posts: 1
Joined: 2/3/2004
Member: #582
4/22/2014  10:12 AM
gunsnewing wrote:Hahaha on the day the entire Michael Jeffrey Woodson coaching staff is shown the door Beno frickin Udrih is lighting up the Thunder. Too funny

I had no clue he latched on to memphis, thats just more confirmation at how dumb our coaching staff was. You go all out to get this guy and then glue him to the bench and then use him as a scapegoat when sht went wrong..

Same thing for artest, I should be looking foward to game 2 tonight against Indi, instead woodson (primarily) lost all those games because of his rotations and use of certain players..

This coaching staff was a bunch idiots, and thats putting it mildly..

ES
dk7th
Posts: 30006
Alba Posts: 1
Joined: 5/14/2012
Member: #4228
USA
4/22/2014  10:24 AM
holfresh wrote:
dk7th wrote:
holfresh wrote:
dk7th wrote:
holfresh wrote:
dk7th wrote:
holfresh wrote:
dk7th wrote:
holfresh wrote:
Clean wrote:
holfresh wrote:
Clean wrote:
holfresh wrote:I get it, when a team like the Knicks miss the playoffs with a 37 win season, then heads should roll...I'll say this tho, Woodson got a raw deal...I'm a little surprised many here who saw the results with Woody as head coach are so happy to see him go..Interesting...

Many here are already endorsing the triangle like it was handed down from Noah during the great flood(bootleg alert, Lupica)...We will see..I hope it doesn't stop there, this entire roster need to be overhauled starting with Tyson Chandler(many here had as a leader)..Tyson was the first to throw Woodson under the bus and jump into the lifeboat saying me first...

Phil's era has begun...

Who would not like to see him go after his horrid coaching in the playoffs. Every single playoff series I considered the Knicks to be at a disadvantage with coaching.

Who did the Knicks lose to in the playoffs that they should not have lost to?

I notice you did not address what I said but instead asked another question. So I wonder if you agree or disagree with my statement. Do you think Woody was a good coach in the playoffs? Do you think in any of our playoff series we had the advantage at the coaching position?


It ultimately comes down to the players on the court..In the NBA, it's all about the horses...If the games aren't close then you really don't see what difference a coach makes...I think coaching matters in terms of philosophy and the way a team approach playing, it's not an individual game thing...I don't think the games or the series were close where individual play calls and substitutions matter...We were clearly over matched on the court against Indy and Miami..

jackson is going to institute what he has called "system basketball." he is going to hire a coach that will be able to implement that system, and he will likely surround that coach with cheap veterans on the cusp of retirement that will help teach that system while also being a locker room stabilizing and pacifying presence. further, jackson will likely be looking to trade erratic and/or selfish players who he deems unfit to be coached or taught.

given your peculiar ethos and leanings i am afraid that you are not going to enjoy this edition of the knicks.

Well for me, it's never about the coaches or a system but about the talent on the court...All Jackson disciples has failed implementing his system..Phil Jackson is/was the talent not the triagle...Riley and Pop has a very distinguished coaching tree in the NBA, Phil has zero...Maybe he is trying to change that...I hope not at our expense...First up we signed a guy that was smoking crack a year ago...I stopped drinking the kool-aid after that...

never was a fan of odom's game but he has more value than chris smith. jackson is giving him a hand up and it may pay off and if it doesn't odom and his cheap short contract is gone.

jordan's pre-triangle teams struggled against the pistons if i recall. they started clicking once they got better players-- that is true-- but you have to give some credit to the triangle too for the dynastic success of chicago and los angeles. it probably acted as a force for cohesion and allowed role players to excel, something that jackson alluded to in the early interviews. it also allowed the players the opportunity to figure things out for themselves, something any holzman era knick fan should appreciate.

I think we can all agree the both Chicago and the Lakers had the talent to be the great teams they turned out to be..Do you think if Riley or Larry Brown were coaching them the results would have been different, I don't...I credit Phil Jackson as a great communicator and a great coach more than I credit the system...Phil knew what buttons to push to get the best out of his players...That doesn't occur because of a system...I think the mental game trumps any other game in the NBA, given you put in the hard work..Look at the Pacers, do u think the system they run is any different than last year??...

Pistons had a great coach and a great team..Played great defense and was deep...They could have won more if Isiah weren't so hurt..

all you're saying is that you like improvisation and freedom. i don't think that playing within a system necessarilfy harms either freedom or improvisation. they are not mutually exclusive and so far as i am concerned if a system makes people make better decisions or converts inefficient scorers into better playmakers then i am all for it.

and if you were to ask me is melo capable here with all tnat i have said my answer is "yes"-- but for no more than 13-14 million.

capeesh?

No, what I am saying is that I think it better to create an offense or style of play that best suits the capabilities of your players..Riley was very successful doing that..U narrow the field of quality coaches when u elect to run a system.. Like JVG or a few of the college coaches I mentioned in other threads vs. Kerr for example..I think a good coach trumps a good system..

Ah, did u just give Melo a 2 mil raise on your previous offer??..Feeling the pressure of him opting out??..He is approaching Deng type value..

ideally he signs for 12-13 because that makes it easier to get better players. i think you suffer diminishing returns above that figure of 13 million and for me 14 million is a stopping point. knicks can't afford to take a chance on melo learning to play the right way at a cost any higher than that-- he is basically the same player he always was so his taking it to the next level is not a given.

you should list the championship winning coaches who have coached without a system or a prevailing philosophy.

Every coach has a philosophy but not a system...Riley, Doc Rivers, Pop, who just instituted what seems to be a system a few years back, Chuck Daly, Spolstra, Rudy T, all won without a system...Name the coaches who have won using a system outside of Phil, who happened to have the best players on the planet at the time...

alright then what were the "philosophies" that these coaches professed that you saw manifested in the play of their players?

knicks win 38-43 games in 16-17. rose MUST shoot no more than 14 shots per game, defer to kp6 + melo, and have a usage rate of less than 25%
holfresh
Posts: 38679
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 1/14/2006
Member: #1081

4/22/2014  10:29 AM    LAST EDITED: 4/22/2014  10:31 AM
dk7th wrote:
holfresh wrote:
dk7th wrote:
holfresh wrote:
dk7th wrote:
holfresh wrote:
dk7th wrote:
holfresh wrote:
dk7th wrote:
holfresh wrote:
Clean wrote:
holfresh wrote:
Clean wrote:
holfresh wrote:I get it, when a team like the Knicks miss the playoffs with a 37 win season, then heads should roll...I'll say this tho, Woodson got a raw deal...I'm a little surprised many here who saw the results with Woody as head coach are so happy to see him go..Interesting...

Many here are already endorsing the triangle like it was handed down from Noah during the great flood(bootleg alert, Lupica)...We will see..I hope it doesn't stop there, this entire roster need to be overhauled starting with Tyson Chandler(many here had as a leader)..Tyson was the first to throw Woodson under the bus and jump into the lifeboat saying me first...

Phil's era has begun...

Who would not like to see him go after his horrid coaching in the playoffs. Every single playoff series I considered the Knicks to be at a disadvantage with coaching.

Who did the Knicks lose to in the playoffs that they should not have lost to?

I notice you did not address what I said but instead asked another question. So I wonder if you agree or disagree with my statement. Do you think Woody was a good coach in the playoffs? Do you think in any of our playoff series we had the advantage at the coaching position?


It ultimately comes down to the players on the court..In the NBA, it's all about the horses...If the games aren't close then you really don't see what difference a coach makes...I think coaching matters in terms of philosophy and the way a team approach playing, it's not an individual game thing...I don't think the games or the series were close where individual play calls and substitutions matter...We were clearly over matched on the court against Indy and Miami..

jackson is going to institute what he has called "system basketball." he is going to hire a coach that will be able to implement that system, and he will likely surround that coach with cheap veterans on the cusp of retirement that will help teach that system while also being a locker room stabilizing and pacifying presence. further, jackson will likely be looking to trade erratic and/or selfish players who he deems unfit to be coached or taught.

given your peculiar ethos and leanings i am afraid that you are not going to enjoy this edition of the knicks.

Well for me, it's never about the coaches or a system but about the talent on the court...All Jackson disciples has failed implementing his system..Phil Jackson is/was the talent not the triagle...Riley and Pop has a very distinguished coaching tree in the NBA, Phil has zero...Maybe he is trying to change that...I hope not at our expense...First up we signed a guy that was smoking crack a year ago...I stopped drinking the kool-aid after that...

never was a fan of odom's game but he has more value than chris smith. jackson is giving him a hand up and it may pay off and if it doesn't odom and his cheap short contract is gone.

jordan's pre-triangle teams struggled against the pistons if i recall. they started clicking once they got better players-- that is true-- but you have to give some credit to the triangle too for the dynastic success of chicago and los angeles. it probably acted as a force for cohesion and allowed role players to excel, something that jackson alluded to in the early interviews. it also allowed the players the opportunity to figure things out for themselves, something any holzman era knick fan should appreciate.

I think we can all agree the both Chicago and the Lakers had the talent to be the great teams they turned out to be..Do you think if Riley or Larry Brown were coaching them the results would have been different, I don't...I credit Phil Jackson as a great communicator and a great coach more than I credit the system...Phil knew what buttons to push to get the best out of his players...That doesn't occur because of a system...I think the mental game trumps any other game in the NBA, given you put in the hard work..Look at the Pacers, do u think the system they run is any different than last year??...

Pistons had a great coach and a great team..Played great defense and was deep...They could have won more if Isiah weren't so hurt..

all you're saying is that you like improvisation and freedom. i don't think that playing within a system necessarilfy harms either freedom or improvisation. they are not mutually exclusive and so far as i am concerned if a system makes people make better decisions or converts inefficient scorers into better playmakers then i am all for it.

and if you were to ask me is melo capable here with all tnat i have said my answer is "yes"-- but for no more than 13-14 million.

capeesh?

No, what I am saying is that I think it better to create an offense or style of play that best suits the capabilities of your players..Riley was very successful doing that..U narrow the field of quality coaches when u elect to run a system.. Like JVG or a few of the college coaches I mentioned in other threads vs. Kerr for example..I think a good coach trumps a good system..

Ah, did u just give Melo a 2 mil raise on your previous offer??..Feeling the pressure of him opting out??..He is approaching Deng type value..

ideally he signs for 12-13 because that makes it easier to get better players. i think you suffer diminishing returns above that figure of 13 million and for me 14 million is a stopping point. knicks can't afford to take a chance on melo learning to play the right way at a cost any higher than that-- he is basically the same player he always was so his taking it to the next level is not a given.

you should list the championship winning coaches who have coached without a system or a prevailing philosophy.

Every coach has a philosophy but not a system...Riley, Doc Rivers, Pop, who just instituted what seems to be a system a few years back, Chuck Daly, Spolstra, Rudy T, all won without a system...Name the coaches who have won using a system outside of Phil, who happened to have the best players on the planet at the time...

alright then what were the "philosophies" that these coaches professed that you saw manifested in the play of their players?

I asked u for a response first..Name the coach not name Phil who has won using a system..

dk7th
Posts: 30006
Alba Posts: 1
Joined: 5/14/2012
Member: #4228
USA
4/22/2014  11:20 AM
riley didn't have a system he had a collection of players who were highly skilled and very very smart. his system such as it was was to push the ball as often as possible. you don't need a system when the skill level and bbiq is that high. same goes with the celtics-- we are talking the golden age of basketball here not the bloated and diluted mess that is the modern nba.

when they loosened the rules for palming and traveling to promote jordan, daly instituted a philosophy of punishing jordan and those series were brutal. that said, again the collective bbiq and skill level was very high on those pistons squads, and their philosophy was defense first.

what i am driving at is that when you have a squad whose skill level, collective iq, and commitment to defense is high then systems are not as necessary. let us remind ourselves that the suns should have beaten the spurs that year of the nash nose gash and then the ridiculous suspensions given out for the horry hip check.

when i see the knicks of the last 10 years i see low skill level, low bbiq, and low desire to defend.

hence, if we are going to undergo a culture change, a system will help cement these three traits. as jackson said, top scorers can score in any system, but the triangle in particular is meant to help lesser players get opportunites that they otherwise wouldn't if scorers were left to their own devices. take westbrook last night for example. a guy like that needs a system. very bryant-like approach that hurts his team. rose comes to mind. iverson. i think you get the idea.

knicks win 38-43 games in 16-17. rose MUST shoot no more than 14 shots per game, defer to kp6 + melo, and have a usage rate of less than 25%
dk7th
Posts: 30006
Alba Posts: 1
Joined: 5/14/2012
Member: #4228
USA
4/22/2014  11:36 AM
here's an article that projects a complete overhaul of the knicks orgnization top to bottom. i am particularly looking forward to seeing all CAA-connected personnel frog-marched to the sidewalk as soon as possible, including allan houston, warkentein, and mills.

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2037234-whats-next-in-phil-jacksons-knicks-housecleaning-and-who-might-new-coach-be

i also like the fact that we are no longer in the "win-now" mode that the disastrous melo trade forced us into.

knicks win 38-43 games in 16-17. rose MUST shoot no more than 14 shots per game, defer to kp6 + melo, and have a usage rate of less than 25%
holfresh
Posts: 38679
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 1/14/2006
Member: #1081

4/22/2014  12:11 PM
dk7th wrote:riley didn't have a system he had a collection of players who were highly skilled and very very smart. his system such as it was was to push the ball as often as possible. you don't need a system when the skill level and bbiq is that high. same goes with the celtics-- we are talking the golden age of basketball here not the bloated and diluted mess that is the modern nba.

when they loosened the rules for palming and traveling to promote jordan, daly instituted a philosophy of punishing jordan and those series were brutal. that said, again the collective bbiq and skill level was very high on those pistons squads, and their philosophy was defense first.

what i am driving at is that when you have a squad whose skill level, collective iq, and commitment to defense is high then systems are not as necessary. let us remind ourselves that the suns should have beaten the spurs that year of the nash nose gash and then the ridiculous suspensions given out for the horry hip check.

when i see the knicks of the last 10 years i see low skill level, low bbiq, and low desire to defend.

hence, if we are going to undergo a culture change, a system will help cement these three traits. as jackson said, top scorers can score in any system, but the triangle in particular is meant to help lesser players get opportunites that they otherwise wouldn't if scorers were left to their own devices. take westbrook last night for example. a guy like that needs a system. very bryant-like approach that hurts his team. rose comes to mind. iverson. i think you get the idea.


So both Daly and Riley tailored their style of play to suit the talents of their players..And based on your response, no other coach won using a system..
holfresh
Posts: 38679
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 1/14/2006
Member: #1081

4/22/2014  12:19 PM    LAST EDITED: 4/22/2014  12:21 PM
For me, system or no system, doesn't matter..A coach that can connect with his players, lead them, push the right button to get the best out if them is what matters...

Examples..
JVG connected with the Knicks players and got results..
Riley connected with the Knicks, Lakers, and the Heat and got results..
Phil connected with the Lakers and Bulls..
LB connected with the Sixers and Detriot..
Daly connected with the Pistons
Doc connected with Celts..
Pop in SA,
Utah great teams ...I can go on...

Great coaches connects trumps systems ...

But because we choose this system, here are our choices..Tyron Lue, Kerr, Derek Fisher, Brian Shaw..See my concern?
dk7th
Posts: 30006
Alba Posts: 1
Joined: 5/14/2012
Member: #4228
USA
4/22/2014  12:26 PM
holfresh wrote:
dk7th wrote:riley didn't have a system he had a collection of players who were highly skilled and very very smart. his system such as it was was to push the ball as often as possible. you don't need a system when the skill level and bbiq is that high. same goes with the celtics-- we are talking the golden age of basketball here not the bloated and diluted mess that is the modern nba.

when they loosened the rules for palming and traveling to promote jordan, daly instituted a philosophy of punishing jordan and those series were brutal. that said, again the collective bbiq and skill level was very high on those pistons squads, and their philosophy was defense first.

what i am driving at is that when you have a squad whose skill level, collective iq, and commitment to defense is high then systems are not as necessary. let us remind ourselves that the suns should have beaten the spurs that year of the nash nose gash and then the ridiculous suspensions given out for the horry hip check.

when i see the knicks of the last 10 years i see low skill level, low bbiq, and low desire to defend.

hence, if we are going to undergo a culture change, a system will help cement these three traits. as jackson said, top scorers can score in any system, but the triangle in particular is meant to help lesser players get opportunites that they otherwise wouldn't if scorers were left to their own devices. take westbrook last night for example. a guy like that needs a system. very bryant-like approach that hurts his team. rose comes to mind. iverson. i think you get the idea.


So both Daly and Riley tailored their style of play to suit the talents of their players..And based on your response, no other coach won using a system..

the truth is that the more skilled, the more intelligent, and the more devoted to defense teams are collectively they don't need a system as much. that was then and this is now.

what i am saying is you are stuck in the past. few teams in today's bloated and diluted nba can be built to that level unless they are the spurs.

i am more interested in the truth than in winning an argument. tell me where my assessment of these teams is not true.

you won't likely see teams like the ones you are citing untill the league shrinks by about 6 to 8 teams.

knicks win 38-43 games in 16-17. rose MUST shoot no more than 14 shots per game, defer to kp6 + melo, and have a usage rate of less than 25%
Nalod
Posts: 71350
Alba Posts: 155
Joined: 12/24/2003
Member: #508
USA
4/22/2014  12:37 PM
dk7th wrote:riley didn't have a system he had a collection of players who were highly skilled and very very smart. his system such as it was was to push the ball as often as possible. you don't need a system when the skill level and bbiq is that high. same goes with the celtics-- we are talking the golden age of basketball here not the bloated and diluted mess that is the modern nba.

when they loosened the rules for palming and traveling to promote jordan, daly instituted a philosophy of punishing jordan and those series were brutal. that said, again the collective bbiq and skill level was very high on those pistons squads, and their philosophy was defense first.

what i am driving at is that when you have a squad whose skill level, collective iq, and commitment to defense is high then systems are not as necessary. let us remind ourselves that the suns should have beaten the spurs that year of the nash nose gash and then the ridiculous suspensions given out for the horry hip check.

when i see the knicks of the last 10 years i see low skill level, low bbiq, and low desire to defend.

hence, if we are going to undergo a culture change, a system will help cement these three traits. as jackson said, top scorers can score in any system, but the triangle in particular is meant to help lesser players get opportunites that they otherwise wouldn't if scorers were left to their own devices. take westbrook last night for example. a guy like that needs a system. very bryant-like approach that hurts his team. rose comes to mind. iverson. i think you get the idea.

Good post. I thought Phil bended to Kobe as much as possible as you have an extreme talent you don't just ignore. PHil and Kobe did bang heads and PHil wanted him traded. My take is Kobe eventually softend to the Zen.

Riles Showtime was already in place having the core already winning a chip under Westhead. When he took knicks job he had Ewing as his cornerstone and my take is Riles was not a systems guy, he was a methodical type discipline guy whose teams are in shape and play hard every day. "SHO", or

Sustained
High
Output

He was about players not coasting until the playoffs and then flip a switch. This I got from his book years ago.

In time he had to soften the approach as the Mourning led teams would burn out in the playoffs.

Pop has his system and overer the years it gets tweeked to adapt to the players and league. I think most coaches do it, even MDA!
But they have a core scheme they believe in. I like the reference to Pop and hip check to Nash. That was some hard core competitive dirty stuff but thats what winners do. Not to bash Melo here, but in contrast to the Smiling when the team fails vs. doing what it takes to win. IN a culture of winning Melo would be asked to not smile and at the same time Melo would have support and guys to watch his back. Thats what winning cultures do. They don't do gushy "coming home starphuch Mooby worship", they make sure the guy has the tools and support. Otherwise why bring in a guy like Melo? To win or sell tickets?

What it appears in NY is the cleaning of house is needed as there are not many assets in place worth keeping. One day Phil will tell his tale and write this chapter but he has a clean slate. Who stays and who goes we can only speculate but its obvious if you have a plan, a goal, a templete then every decision made will eventually reflect that goal.

I wouldn't worry about CAA with or without Warkentien or H20.

If Melo wants to be a part of the new Knicks Im ok with that. If he wants to smile and be a celebrity then maybe its time to go.

fishmike
Posts: 53864
Alba Posts: 1
Joined: 7/19/2002
Member: #298
USA
4/22/2014  1:33 PM
dk7th wrote:riley didn't have a system he had a collection of players who were highly skilled and very very smart. his system such as it was was to push the ball as often as possible. you don't need a system when the skill level and bbiq is that high. same goes with the celtics-- we are talking the golden age of basketball here not the bloated and diluted mess that is the modern nba.

when they loosened the rules for palming and traveling to promote jordan, daly instituted a philosophy of punishing jordan and those series were brutal. that said, again the collective bbiq and skill level was very high on those pistons squads, and their philosophy was defense first.

what i am driving at is that when you have a squad whose skill level, collective iq, and commitment to defense is high then systems are not as necessary. let us remind ourselves that the suns should have beaten the spurs that year of the nash nose gash and then the ridiculous suspensions given out for the horry hip check.

when i see the knicks of the last 10 years i see low skill level, low bbiq, and low desire to defend.

hence, if we are going to undergo a culture change, a system will help cement these three traits. as jackson said, top scorers can score in any system, but the triangle in particular is meant to help lesser players get opportunites that they otherwise wouldn't if scorers were left to their own devices. take westbrook last night for example. a guy like that needs a system. very bryant-like approach that hurts his team. rose comes to mind. iverson. i think you get the idea.

funny you harp defense defense defense then site that MDA Suns team that should have been in the finals as a skilled high IQ team. Good stuff
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
dk7th
Posts: 30006
Alba Posts: 1
Joined: 5/14/2012
Member: #4228
USA
4/22/2014  1:39 PM
fishmike wrote:
dk7th wrote:riley didn't have a system he had a collection of players who were highly skilled and very very smart. his system such as it was was to push the ball as often as possible. you don't need a system when the skill level and bbiq is that high. same goes with the celtics-- we are talking the golden age of basketball here not the bloated and diluted mess that is the modern nba.

when they loosened the rules for palming and traveling to promote jordan, daly instituted a philosophy of punishing jordan and those series were brutal. that said, again the collective bbiq and skill level was very high on those pistons squads, and their philosophy was defense first.

what i am driving at is that when you have a squad whose skill level, collective iq, and commitment to defense is high then systems are not as necessary. let us remind ourselves that the suns should have beaten the spurs that year of the nash nose gash and then the ridiculous suspensions given out for the horry hip check.

when i see the knicks of the last 10 years i see low skill level, low bbiq, and low desire to defend.

hence, if we are going to undergo a culture change, a system will help cement these three traits. as jackson said, top scorers can score in any system, but the triangle in particular is meant to help lesser players get opportunites that they otherwise wouldn't if scorers were left to their own devices. take westbrook last night for example. a guy like that needs a system. very bryant-like approach that hurts his team. rose comes to mind. iverson. i think you get the idea.

funny you harp defense defense defense then site that MDA Suns team that should have been in the finals as a skilled high IQ team. Good stuff

the discussion was centered on utilizing a system versus not. it then became a discussion of what sort of teams have won without a system. what those systemless teams have had in common is a high collective basketball iq and high level of skills, with a defense-first mentality. that was then this is now.

with that said, in a bloated and diluted league, and the predominance of the the three-point line, d'antoni's system would have won them a title against the cavs that season.

take the time to read what has been written instead of trying to engage in a pissing contest, please.

knicks win 38-43 games in 16-17. rose MUST shoot no more than 14 shots per game, defer to kp6 + melo, and have a usage rate of less than 25%
Coaching Staff Relieved of Duties

©2001-2025 ultimateknicks.comm All rights reserved. About Us.
This site is not affiliated with the NY Knicks or the National Basketball Association in any way.
You may visit the official NY Knicks web site by clicking here.

All times (GMT-05:00) Eastern Time.

Terms of Use and Privacy Policy