mreinman wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

mreinman wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

nixluva wrote:

Dagger wrote:

Nalod wrote:Woodson did not miss 10 of his last 12 shots did he?

Woodson did not start 3rd quarter lethargic did they?

Our back court is really bad fellas. Really bad! Sorry, im not just laying this on the coach and thinking Woodsons removal will produce magical results!

Phil Will sort this roster out and likely put a new man in. If he thinks woody is his man, im ok with that too.

You're out of your mind Nalod. This isn't a question of whether or not to keep a mediocre coach. Woodson has committed so many fireable offenses this year it's just safe to say that you will never place blame for anything on the coach, even the most blatant mismanagement, so I'm not even going to bother to try and convince you.

I don't think some fans realize that good coaches help teach their players how to get easy baskets and Woody allows his team to rely on mostly jumpers, even tho he doesn't have too.

Yet Melo is playing more efficiently under Woodson than anyone else (including MDA!)

Well ... the first season (after the trade) was his most efficient.

His second year he passed more but his shot was not falling.

His shot happens to be better now. He certainly is not passing more. But, when you shoot 41 percent from 3, it certainly helps your efficiency (regardless if some posters understand this or not)

You're talking about one third of one season? I think a more reasonable assessment would be to use the biggest sample available - just look at his total TS% for all games played under each coach. I'd also looking at the turnover rate or assist:turnover ratio. Most people don't mean that when they say "efficiency" but you are hurting your team's offensive efficiency when you turn the ball over.

I am pretty sure that his turnover to assist ratio was better under MDA.

The only thing he is actually doing better for woody is actually hitting shots.

His shots were just not falling in the season that MDA was fired (11-12).

I can't give a coach credit for a players shot falling. But MDA certainly had him passing better.

Bonn1997 wrote:

mreinman wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

mreinman wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

nixluva wrote:

Dagger wrote:

Nalod wrote:Woodson did not miss 10 of his last 12 shots did he?

Woodson did not start 3rd quarter lethargic did they?

Our back court is really bad fellas. Really bad! Sorry, im not just laying this on the coach and thinking Woodsons removal will produce magical results!

Phil Will sort this roster out and likely put a new man in. If he thinks woody is his man, im ok with that too.

You're out of your mind Nalod. This isn't a question of whether or not to keep a mediocre coach. Woodson has committed so many fireable offenses this year it's just safe to say that you will never place blame for anything on the coach, even the most blatant mismanagement, so I'm not even going to bother to try and convince you.

I don't think some fans realize that good coaches help teach their players how to get easy baskets and Woody allows his team to rely on mostly jumpers, even tho he doesn't have too.

Yet Melo is playing more efficiently under Woodson than anyone else (including MDA!)

Well ... the first season (after the trade) was his most efficient.

His second year he passed more but his shot was not falling.

His shot happens to be better now. He certainly is not passing more. But, when you shoot 41 percent from 3, it certainly helps your efficiency (regardless if some posters understand this or not)

You're talking about one third of one season? I think a more reasonable assessment would be to use the biggest sample available - just look at his total TS% for all games played under each coach. I'd also looking at the turnover rate or assist:turnover ratio. Most people don't mean that when they say "efficiency" but you are hurting your team's offensive efficiency when you turn the ball over.

I am pretty sure that his turnover to assist ratio was better under MDA.

The only thing he is actually doing better for woody is actually hitting shots.

His shots were just not falling in the season that MDA was fired (11-12).

I can't give a coach credit for a players shot falling. But MDA certainly had him passing better.

For that one half season where Woodson got him to work on passing, the ratio was better. I think he has the best combination of shooting efficiency and low turnovers he's ever had under Woodson though.
Again, I'm really just playing Devil's advocate. I think the net impact of any coach is going to be negligible over the long-run, and usually when people are blaming the coach, it really just means they overrated the roster.

I agree with the second part. I think that people don't realize how bad our guards are.

Also, Woody has him passing less so of course he would have fewer TO's. His AST : TOV ratio was actually better with MDA.

Woody certainly has him shooting the three better so he is a really good coach at getting Melo to knock them down.

Anyway, I get your point.

However, if a coach has a good roster, it is important that the team has the right coach that has them playing correctly. See the Lakers with and without pjax.

Take Matt Goukas for an example

It's not that complicated

Bonn1997 wrote:

mreinman wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

mreinman wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

nixluva wrote:

Dagger wrote:

Nalod wrote:Woodson did not miss 10 of his last 12 shots did he?

Woodson did not start 3rd quarter lethargic did they?

Our back court is really bad fellas. Really bad! Sorry, im not just laying this on the coach and thinking Woodsons removal will produce magical results!

Phil Will sort this roster out and likely put a new man in. If he thinks woody is his man, im ok with that too.

You're out of your mind Nalod. This isn't a question of whether or not to keep a mediocre coach. Woodson has committed so many fireable offenses this year it's just safe to say that you will never place blame for anything on the coach, even the most blatant mismanagement, so I'm not even going to bother to try and convince you.

I don't think some fans realize that good coaches help teach their players how to get easy baskets and Woody allows his team to rely on mostly jumpers, even tho he doesn't have too.

Yet Melo is playing more efficiently under Woodson than anyone else (including MDA!)

Well ... the first season (after the trade) was his most efficient.

His second year he passed more but his shot was not falling.

His shot happens to be better now. He certainly is not passing more. But, when you shoot 41 percent from 3, it certainly helps your efficiency (regardless if some posters understand this or not)

You're talking about one third of one season? I think a more reasonable assessment would be to use the biggest sample available - just look at his total TS% for all games played under each coach. I'd also looking at the turnover rate or assist:turnover ratio. Most people don't mean that when they say "efficiency" but you are hurting your team's offensive efficiency when you turn the ball over.

I am pretty sure that his turnover to assist ratio was better under MDA.

The only thing he is actually doing better for woody is actually hitting shots.

His shots were just not falling in the season that MDA was fired (11-12).

I can't give a coach credit for a players shot falling. But MDA certainly had him passing better.

For that one half season where Woodson got him to work on passing, the ratio was better. I think he has the best combination of shooting efficiency and low turnovers he's ever had under Woodson though.
Again, I'm really just playing Devil's advocate. I think the net impact of any coach is going to be negligible over the long-run, and usually when people are blaming the coach, it really just means they overrated the roster.

How can you say that the net impact of any coach is negligible over the long run, in any statistical analysis of this there is no control group to compare to. You can't see how a season plays out with a hall of fame coach and then go back in time to see how the team's success would have changed with a poor coach given the same roster, with the same schedule, against the same competition, with the same injuries, in the same year.

CrushAlot wrote:

Clean wrote:

mreinman wrote:

Clean wrote:

martin wrote:

Clean wrote:

smackeddog wrote:

gunsnewing wrote:Yea. Michael Woodson doesn't seem like a guy who has a full grasp of every element in coaching. So no he is not. Championship coach

What I don't get, and I'm being genuine here, is how does he manage to rustle up these prolonged winning streaks?- he's done it every year he's been here. It seems like his defensive schemes are terrible and he makes no adjustments, yet we've won a lot of games under him- so are we overlooking some of his strengths?

Like clockwork he always gets exposed in the playoffs. He has noticeably been out coached in every playoff series as a Knick coach.

really? which ones?

All of them.

Off the top of my head the series vs the heat it was obvious that the heat did 3 things vs us. They trapped the ball handlers off most PNR's. They played good denial and post D on melo. The last thing I remember they did vs us was any double that was not a trap came from the weak side corner. Woody did nothing to counter these moves. He force fed the ball to Melo in the post and he did not think to put the best 3pt shooter in the league(novak) in the weak side corner EVERY TIME he is on the court.

For the Indiana series he hardly made any adjustments and when he did it was the wrong one. He went big vs the Pacers which is a negative because their bigs are better than our bigs. It also meant that Hibbert would live in the paint because none of our bigs could hit a shot. He played Amare too much after coming back rusty from an injury. He did not play Cope until too late. After the Pacers beat us Frank Vogel specifically said he was glad we did not use Cope in the series. Cope would have meant hibbert could not stay in the paint all game.

Woody lets his players take too many low percentage shots. If that's on the players because they don't listen to the coach? Then we need a coach who will require that players listen to their instructions.

He got out coached in the playoffs because the ball stuck. Very weak ball movement. If you lose and are moving the ball, I am ok with it. But, if you lose going ISO/forced basketball then I blame the coach. Now I know the personnel sucked especially at guard but that is still no excuse to not require ball movement.

Watching the college game and seeing the ball movement that's coached makes me really hate the NBA (especially the knicks style).

Not sure I buy the Cope thing.

On the Cope thing I will post the stats on the games he has vs the pacers when he was in the rotation. In Feb Cope played 10 minutes and scored 13 points with 66% accuracy. In April Cope was forced to play major minutes due to Chandlers Injury. He played 34 minutes and scored 20 points with 66% accuracy . He made 4 3pters with 50% accuracy. I specifically remember Vogel saying he did not expect that performance from Cope during that April game and they could not guard him and Melo on court at the same time. Add that to Vogels happiness at Woodsons reluctance to use Cope against the pacers in the playoffs and I think it is pretty clear cut.

You don't think Woodson was a little bit put off by Cope's poor play in the Celtic series where he got the start in game 1 and didn't score a point for the series. Cope was an undrafted league mini signing and he looked shook in the Celtics series. It appeared the stage was too bright for Cope in the Celtic series. That stuff sticks with some coaches for awhile.

But then he shocked us to life in the pacers series...

I thought he did a great job. This year he got dumberer.

Nalod wrote:Coach Kidd won 54 games last year.

Fixed

Dagger wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

mreinman wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

mreinman wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

nixluva wrote:

Dagger wrote:

Nalod wrote:Woodson did not miss 10 of his last 12 shots did he?

Woodson did not start 3rd quarter lethargic did they?

Our back court is really bad fellas. Really bad! Sorry, im not just laying this on the coach and thinking Woodsons removal will produce magical results!

Phil Will sort this roster out and likely put a new man in. If he thinks woody is his man, im ok with that too.

You're out of your mind Nalod. This isn't a question of whether or not to keep a mediocre coach. Woodson has committed so many fireable offenses this year it's just safe to say that you will never place blame for anything on the coach, even the most blatant mismanagement, so I'm not even going to bother to try and convince you.

I don't think some fans realize that good coaches help teach their players how to get easy baskets and Woody allows his team to rely on mostly jumpers, even tho he doesn't have too.

Yet Melo is playing more efficiently under Woodson than anyone else (including MDA!)

Well ... the first season (after the trade) was his most efficient.

His second year he passed more but his shot was not falling.

His shot happens to be better now. He certainly is not passing more. But, when you shoot 41 percent from 3, it certainly helps your efficiency (regardless if some posters understand this or not)

You're talking about one third of one season? I think a more reasonable assessment would be to use the biggest sample available - just look at his total TS% for all games played under each coach. I'd also looking at the turnover rate or assist:turnover ratio. Most people don't mean that when they say "efficiency" but you are hurting your team's offensive efficiency when you turn the ball over.

I am pretty sure that his turnover to assist ratio was better under MDA.

The only thing he is actually doing better for woody is actually hitting shots.

His shots were just not falling in the season that MDA was fired (11-12).

I can't give a coach credit for a players shot falling. But MDA certainly had him passing better.

For that one half season where Woodson got him to work on passing, the ratio was better. I think he has the best combination of shooting efficiency and low turnovers he's ever had under Woodson though.
Again, I'm really just playing Devil's advocate. I think the net impact of any coach is going to be negligible over the long-run, and usually when people are blaming the coach, it really just means they overrated the roster.

How can you say that the net impact of any coach is negligible over the long run, in any statistical analysis of this there is no control group to compare to. You can't see how a season plays out with a hall of fame coach and then go back in time to see how the team's success would have changed with a poor coach given the same roster, with the same schedule, against the same competition, with the same injuries, in the same year.

Dagger wrote:

Nalod wrote:Coach Kidd won 54 games last year. Except for any of the wins during the last two months of the season. Coach couldn't shoot.

Fixed

Re-Fixed.

Dagger wrote:

jrodmc wrote:

Dagger wrote:

Nalod wrote:Coach Kidd won 54 games last year. Except for any of the wins during the last two months of the season. Coach couldn't shoot.

Fixed

Re-Fixed.

Yup, he was terrible on the court the last two months, but he was still leading the team.

Bonn1997 wrote:

Dagger wrote:

jrodmc wrote:

Dagger wrote:

Nalod wrote:Coach Kidd won 54 games last year. Except for any of the wins during the last two months of the season. Coach couldn't shoot.

Fixed

Re-Fixed.

Yup, he was terrible on the court the last two months, but he was still leading the team.

And the 18-6 finish the year before? That was coach JR?

That was coach fatMELOlazynoma sticking it to MDA