NardDogNation wrote:

jrodmc wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

JamesLin wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

JamesLin wrote:I have to vote for the lesser desired Spree, apparently.

1) He stuck it to Michael Jordan, our nemesis, our obstacle to the championship, on his farewell tour and never let him have the last good (for Jordan) game against our Knicks by guarding MJ like a hawk on mice.
2) He was asked to play hard on PG, SG, SF, PF and never asked a question why (someone said he was a one way player? when were you born?). Carmelo wasn't, ever.
3) He was consistent on scoring but focused more on defense, which our Knicks lacked big time. Carmelo did decent defense from time to time.
4) He helped us overcome #8 seed and made us the FIRST team in NBA history having an 8th seed beat the 1st seed and got us to the NBA finals. Carmelo hasn't gotten us close to the finals as of yet.
5) He holds (now co-holds with Ben Gordon) an NBA record as a Knicks. Anthony doesn't have one.

What has Carmelo Anthony done for us lately?

None of that is relevant to determining who the better player was/is....

I.. I.. don't know how to say this without sounding condescending (I'm really not)... the topic was asking for who's the better Knicks. If help getting us to NBA finals (closest we've ever got to in over 40 years) is not better, nor breaking NBA record as a Knicks, then what is relevant to determine who the better Knicks was/is? I like a good argument followed by a certified statement/fact plz. :)

Because stuff like that doesn't seem to be accurate or tangent to the conversation. You're lauding Sprewell for getting us to the Finals as if the 14 other players and coach had nothing to do with it. Before New York, what was Sprewell? How well was he in getting the Warriors to the Finals? To the playoffs? Or even a winning record?

And who gives a **** if he holds an NBA record? Scott Skiles holds the record for assists in a game. Does that mean he gets to be put in a conversation with John Stockton? If you really want to play the accolade game, Melo easily outshines Sprewell e.g. most points in a quarter (33), NBA scoring champion, more All-NBA recognitions, more all-star berths, etc. I just don't think that the line of reasoning that you're using holds any real weight in the kind of conversation that you're trying to have.

+1
Loved Spree, own several jerseys. Loved the neverending, neversweat motor, the resilience and the way he turned a bad (choking) into a positive (going to the Finals). But seriously, Spree joined a team that had gone to the playoffs every year for a decade straight. For two seasons, with just him, we were out.

Melo comes here and joins a franchise that hadn't been to the varsity season in 6 years. A franchise that had to have owner/GM intervention from the commissioner.

I hated that Spree got traded. It was a stupid move. I probably hate it more that tkf likes Spree too.

Ewing - at least this makes some semblance of sense.

LJ. He likes LJ better than Melo. What, one 4 point play? What, exactly did he do in the Finals? What exactly makes him better? His back brace? His unintelligble gibberish at the end of game interview? His stellar defensive play? The fact he had absolutely less lift in his legs as a Knick than Anthony Mason?
Camby - did you like how he folded constantly like a two dollar bill on those rice krispy knees?
H2O - Apparently disappearing in 2nd halfs is something that makes you endearable to the Melohate crowd.

I'm still waiting for the Starbury Knick GOAT conversation.

I was a huge Sprewell fan too back in the day. The rebel persona that he embodied is appealing to most average Joe's. At the same time, he didn't seem to be like an ******* because when he spokenhe was seemingly mild-mannered, articulate, etc. Best of all, he cursed out James Dolan, which would've made him a favorite of mine regardless of everything else. But he's not better than Melo. Even at his best, Sprewell was a fringe all-star in the league. I think that actually made him more endearing to us because that meant he had to give 100% effort, 100% of the time to get recognition. And that was exactly what he did.

Its irrelevant to the topic but I actually liked the Van Horn deal, lol. I thought we should've gotten a little more but we needed to get younger and bigger that season. We used Keith poorly but the man had game and was still in his prime. He was better than anything I've ever seen from Gallo, who I thought was going to be Keith 2.0

How can you like a deal that nets Tim Thomas (who we ended up with for nothing) for Spree? KVH was an overrated offensive player and played a few good games. Nothing special. Ex-nets (other than BK) have never really worked out for us.

Being better than Gallo just means actually appearing in games. Not much to live up to, actually.

NardDogNation wrote:

jrodmc wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

JamesLin wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

JamesLin wrote:I have to vote for the lesser desired Spree, apparently.

1) He stuck it to Michael Jordan, our nemesis, our obstacle to the championship, on his farewell tour and never let him have the last good (for Jordan) game against our Knicks by guarding MJ like a hawk on mice.
2) He was asked to play hard on PG, SG, SF, PF and never asked a question why (someone said he was a one way player? when were you born?). Carmelo wasn't, ever.
3) He was consistent on scoring but focused more on defense, which our Knicks lacked big time. Carmelo did decent defense from time to time.
4) He helped us overcome #8 seed and made us the FIRST team in NBA history having an 8th seed beat the 1st seed and got us to the NBA finals. Carmelo hasn't gotten us close to the finals as of yet.
5) He holds (now co-holds with Ben Gordon) an NBA record as a Knicks. Anthony doesn't have one.

What has Carmelo Anthony done for us lately?

None of that is relevant to determining who the better player was/is....

I.. I.. don't know how to say this without sounding condescending (I'm really not)... the topic was asking for who's the better Knicks. If help getting us to NBA finals (closest we've ever got to in over 40 years) is not better, nor breaking NBA record as a Knicks, then what is relevant to determine who the better Knicks was/is? I like a good argument followed by a certified statement/fact plz. :)

Because stuff like that doesn't seem to be accurate or tangent to the conversation. You're lauding Sprewell for getting us to the Finals as if the 14 other players and coach had nothing to do with it. Before New York, what was Sprewell? How well was he in getting the Warriors to the Finals? To the playoffs? Or even a winning record?

And who gives a **** if he holds an NBA record? Scott Skiles holds the record for assists in a game. Does that mean he gets to be put in a conversation with John Stockton? If you really want to play the accolade game, Melo easily outshines Sprewell e.g. most points in a quarter (33), NBA scoring champion, more All-NBA recognitions, more all-star berths, etc. I just don't think that the line of reasoning that you're using holds any real weight in the kind of conversation that you're trying to have.

+1
Loved Spree, own several jerseys. Loved the neverending, neversweat motor, the resilience and the way he turned a bad (choking) into a positive (going to the Finals). But seriously, Spree joined a team that had gone to the playoffs every year for a decade straight. For two seasons, with just him, we were out.

Melo comes here and joins a franchise that hadn't been to the varsity season in 6 years. A franchise that had to have owner/GM intervention from the commissioner.

I hated that Spree got traded. It was a stupid move. I probably hate it more that tkf likes Spree too.

Ewing - at least this makes some semblance of sense.

LJ. He likes LJ better than Melo. What, one 4 point play? What, exactly did he do in the Finals? What exactly makes him better? His back brace? His unintelligble gibberish at the end of game interview? His stellar defensive play? The fact he had absolutely less lift in his legs as a Knick than Anthony Mason?
Camby - did you like how he folded constantly like a two dollar bill on those rice krispy knees?
H2O - Apparently disappearing in 2nd halfs is something that makes you endearable to the Melohate crowd.

I'm still waiting for the Starbury Knick GOAT conversation.

I was a huge Sprewell fan too back in the day. The rebel persona that he embodied is appealing to most average Joe's. At the same time, he didn't seem to be like an ******* because when he spokenhe was seemingly mild-mannered, articulate, etc. Best of all, he cursed out James Dolan, which would've made him a favorite of mine regardless of everything else. But he's not better than Melo. Even at his best, Sprewell was a fringe all-star in the league. I think that actually made him more endearing to us because that meant he had to give 100% effort, 100% of the time to get recognition. And that was exactly what he did.

Its irrelevant to the topic but I actually liked the Van Horn deal, lol. I thought we should've gotten a little more but we needed to get younger and bigger that season. We used Keith poorly but the man had game and was still in his prime. He was better than anything I've ever seen from Gallo, who I thought was going to be Keith 2.0

can you explain to me what is a fringe allstar.. he was a 4 time all star and a first team all NBA player... something carmelo has never achieved.... and for the record, the allstar game is a popularity contest... was kobe really an allstar this year, although he didn't play but a couple of games I think? really?

It's easy to say Carmelo was better than spree.. another thing to actually back that up.. so I ask, other than scoring, what did carmelo do better.. and I use the word "better" cautiously because carmelo takes more than 5 shots per than sprewell...

As far as KVH goes.. I hate we traded him, I actually liked how he played for us, but unfortunately the knicks early verson of carmelo,(marbury) didn't want to play nice with KVH, so he was gone.. similar to the way lin was ushered out of msg by marbury 2.0... go figure..

Nalod wrote:

tkf wrote:

Nalod wrote:Spree, like Bernard King are emotional favorites for some knick fans. King was here a very brief time but had some nice moments. Spree was a polarizing figure whose "Choking" incidence vaulted him to a national audience. Public opinion on him ran among racial lines. He didn't just choke his coach, he stood up to "the man"! He was portrayed in the media with them using a video of a dunk, followed by a primal scream that portrayed him in a negative light.

In the end he sort of lived up to some of his stereotypes as he was often late to camp, missing from camp, would disappear, pretty much controversial broken hand, ended his relationship with three teams in a negative light, publicly picked his dog over his bitten daughter, got offended by a very good contract, and from what we have read is pretty much broke now.

But he was a "good team mate!" We only know that because players did not throw him under the bus. But knick media policy sort of prevents that. My take is if your late to camp and miss some preseaon because of it maybe thats not a good team mate? Everyone else seemed to manage to make it. Spree would get in his car and drive cross country and nobody knew where he was.

In my book spree was a free spirit and that made him fun. I enjoyed his play but he was over rated by knick fans because they were attracted to his anti establishment thing.

Melo is the star of this team and a star of the league because he can score. He has proven himself reliable and a consummate professional on and off the court as a knick. He has matured since his early Denver days. The winning or lack of it has much to do with "clumsy" roster construction.

Melo is the better knick. Spree was a great storyline. King was a great maturation story and he is in the Hall of fame. MElo will be, spree won't.

yea, don't you just love how he sucker slapped collins and then backpedaled.... very professional..

speak for yourself nalod.. sprewell was liked because he produced results, he was good, fiery and a true competitor... did he come to camp late, sure, did he have issues.. sure... but one thing I do know, when he stepped on that hard wood, he never cheated the fans... I can't say the same thing about carmelo who sabotaged the team because he didn't want to play dantoni's way.. to me that is being a bad teamate and scum.. no one is perfect but when you are willing to sabotage your own team, to get your way.. you are dead to me..

You wear "Hate Melo" colored glasses.

I said: "as a knick"

And that: "matured since his early denver days".

I think players that bring drama takes something form his teammates. I think players who don't come to camp are not giving it all. I think players who break bones in stupid fights cheat fans as well. Spree was a natural athlete and did not have to get into shape like others, but imagine if he was more professional off the court. If he came on time and prepared.

Sorry, I liked his "Phuch the establishment" gig and found it amusing but objectively I think he was less than consumate pro. Not like King was, not like Melo is.

I don't like that he did not blend well with MDA. BUt he did carry the franchise on his back the remaining 24 games after he left and took ownerhship.

Im not here to argue as its pointless with you. I don't do Melo love/hate threads. I am on record as not liking the trade but that was a price issue. I think Melo has lived up to his end of the bargain and never held him in the high standard as some others, so Im not disappionted in him as much as the knicks as a franchise for not seeing the full picture. "Clumsy" was telling. Last season they played over their heads whick I think Woodson was very responsable for. Woody Hate is typical response given this season.

Spree was a piece of a pretty good team. He was not the starphuch centerpiece that Melo is.

I liked spree for all the reasons you do, but objectively as you said he had his flaws. Those weigh heavier with me.

Extremely fair and balanced. What a great post.

Sambakick wrote:

JamesLin wrote:

Sambakick wrote:Anthony has the NBA record for points in Madison Square Garden. That's what he has done lately.

that's not NBA record.. that's MSG record.. and you still haven't countered my above points yet. If scoring one game is what determines greatness for you, then ok, you win.

That is an NBA record for most points in MSG. It's not even disputable. You're referencing one Sprewell game too.

I looked on NBA.com and spent an hour looking. Nope, no category for most points in MSG. However, Sprewell's record is there...

JamesLin wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

JamesLin wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:Because stuff like that doesn't seem to be accurate or tangent to the conversation. You're lauding Sprewell for getting us to the Finals as if the 14 other players and coach had nothing to do with it. Before New York, what was Sprewell? How well was he in getting the Warriors to the Finals? To the playoffs? Or even a winning record?

And who gives a **** if he holds an NBA record? Scott Skiles holds the record in assists. Does that mean he gets to be put in a conversation with John Stockton? If you really want to play the accolade game, Melo easily outshines Sprewell e.g. most points in a quarter (33), NBA scoring champion, more All-NBA recognitions, more all-star berths, etc. I just don't think that the line of reasoning that you're using holds any real weight in the kind of conversation that you're trying to have.

Ok, so which part is not accurate? Sprewell helped getting us to the NBA finals is not? I never said Sprewell one handed took us to the finals. So by your argument, if Carmelo took us to the finals, you're saying I will be lauding Melo for getting us to the Finals as if the 14 other players and coach had nothing to do with it? Who gives a **** if he holds an NBA record as a Knicks? Are you even a NBA fan then? So all your argument so far only states 'James, you're wrong, period and all records are useless in my book'. So, although I have a hard time even respecting you now as a somewhat basketball fan since you disregard NBA record or championship as crap, you still haven't counter argue what is relevant to who's a better Knicks player... so what is it then?

Again, your argument makes no sense. You keep trying to use the fact that Sprewell was on a Finals team to demonstrate that he was a better player than Melo. That is simply stupid. Postseason success isn't an individual accolade, it is a team accolade. Melo NEVER had the caliber of teammate that Sprewell did in New York, so it is inappropriate to bring team success into the discussion. For the record though, I could care less what you do with your respect. I'd just like to see a cogent debate being made.

As for NBA records, again, it is hardly relevant. When comparing two players you need to look at a body of work and not just individual games. I used the Scott Skiles example to demonstrate that point. By your line of reasoning, we should begin to entertain him being in conversations with the greatest PG's of all-time since he accomplished a feat that none of them did. That would be absurd. Jamal Crawford once had a 50 point game as a Knick. Does that make him worthy of being compared to Bernard King, Patrick Ewing, Carmelo Anthony, Earl the Pearl and the like? It would be frivolous to assume so.

Moving forward, you need to define what makes another player better than another. What does that involve in your opinion?

Oh god. You're doing this yet again. You still haven't answered the question.. so what IS RELEVANT to be the better KNICKS player? All you said up there was why I don't make any sense. I already defined mine in several points (see first post), whether you agree or not. You have YET to define yours. You keep avoiding answering it because ... you don't have an answer and hate my answer? If you make another post not answer directly my question to you, then I know you're just arguing for the sake of arguing and I have no patience to debate/argue with people like that because it's like arguing with a little kid saying 'no no no' 'no no no'.

I actually did that both directly and indirectly. I clearly suggested that you have to ignore team accomplishments and focus on individual accolades (examples I used included all-star appearances, All-NBA recognitions, statistic champion, etc). I also clearly stated that these accolades would have to be a part of a greater and more demonstrated body of work than individual games. If you invested as much time in reading comprehension as you did in being a condescending, smart-ass, you would've realized that.

I wish more of you came clean

NardDogNation wrote:

JamesLin wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

JamesLin wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:Because stuff like that doesn't seem to be accurate or tangent to the conversation. You're lauding Sprewell for getting us to the Finals as if the 14 other players and coach had nothing to do with it. Before New York, what was Sprewell? How well was he in getting the Warriors to the Finals? To the playoffs? Or even a winning record?

And who gives a **** if he holds an NBA record? Scott Skiles holds the record in assists. Does that mean he gets to be put in a conversation with John Stockton? If you really want to play the accolade game, Melo easily outshines Sprewell e.g. most points in a quarter (33), NBA scoring champion, more All-NBA recognitions, more all-star berths, etc. I just don't think that the line of reasoning that you're using holds any real weight in the kind of conversation that you're trying to have.

Ok, so which part is not accurate? Sprewell helped getting us to the NBA finals is not? I never said Sprewell one handed took us to the finals. So by your argument, if Carmelo took us to the finals, you're saying I will be lauding Melo for getting us to the Finals as if the 14 other players and coach had nothing to do with it? Who gives a **** if he holds an NBA record as a Knicks? Are you even a NBA fan then? So all your argument so far only states 'James, you're wrong, period and all records are useless in my book'. So, although I have a hard time even respecting you now as a somewhat basketball fan since you disregard NBA record or championship as crap, you still haven't counter argue what is relevant to who's a better Knicks player... so what is it then?

Again, your argument makes no sense. You keep trying to use the fact that Sprewell was on a Finals team to demonstrate that he was a better player than Melo. That is simply stupid. Postseason success isn't an individual accolade, it is a team accolade. Melo NEVER had the caliber of teammate that Sprewell did in New York, so it is inappropriate to bring team success into the discussion. For the record though, I could care less what you do with your respect. I'd just like to see a cogent debate being made.

As for NBA records, again, it is hardly relevant. When comparing two players you need to look at a body of work and not just individual games. I used the Scott Skiles example to demonstrate that point. By your line of reasoning, we should begin to entertain him being in conversations with the greatest PG's of all-time since he accomplished a feat that none of them did. That would be absurd. Jamal Crawford once had a 50 point game as a Knick. Does that make him worthy of being compared to Bernard King, Patrick Ewing, Carmelo Anthony, Earl the Pearl and the like? It would be frivolous to assume so.

Moving forward, you need to define what makes another player better than another. What does that involve in your opinion?

Oh god. You're doing this yet again. You still haven't answered the question.. so what IS RELEVANT to be the better KNICKS player? All you said up there was why I don't make any sense. I already defined mine in several points (see first post), whether you agree or not. You have YET to define yours. You keep avoiding answering it because ... you don't have an answer and hate my answer? If you make another post not answer directly my question to you, then I know you're just arguing for the sake of arguing and I have no patience to debate/argue with people like that because it's like arguing with a little kid saying 'no no no' 'no no no'.

I actually did that both directly and indirectly. I clearly suggested that you have to ignore team accomplishments and focus on individual accolades (examples I used included all-star appearances, All-NBA recognitions, statistic champion, etc). I also clearly stated that these accolades would have to be a part of a greater and more demonstrated body of work than individual games. If you invested as much time in reading comprehension as you did in being a condescending, smart-ass, you would've realized that.

All star games are more popularity contest, but if you want to go accolades.. spree made all nba first team and all NBA defense second team.. carmelo never, ever made an all defense team( no surprise there) and he never made all NBA first team... both guys made multiple all star games...

tkf wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

JamesLin wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

JamesLin wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:Because stuff like that doesn't seem to be accurate or tangent to the conversation. You're lauding Sprewell for getting us to the Finals as if the 14 other players and coach had nothing to do with it. Before New York, what was Sprewell? How well was he in getting the Warriors to the Finals? To the playoffs? Or even a winning record?

And who gives a **** if he holds an NBA record? Scott Skiles holds the record in assists. Does that mean he gets to be put in a conversation with John Stockton? If you really want to play the accolade game, Melo easily outshines Sprewell e.g. most points in a quarter (33), NBA scoring champion, more All-NBA recognitions, more all-star berths, etc. I just don't think that the line of reasoning that you're using holds any real weight in the kind of conversation that you're trying to have.

Ok, so which part is not accurate? Sprewell helped getting us to the NBA finals is not? I never said Sprewell one handed took us to the finals. So by your argument, if Carmelo took us to the finals, you're saying I will be lauding Melo for getting us to the Finals as if the 14 other players and coach had nothing to do with it? Who gives a **** if he holds an NBA record as a Knicks? Are you even a NBA fan then? So all your argument so far only states 'James, you're wrong, period and all records are useless in my book'. So, although I have a hard time even respecting you now as a somewhat basketball fan since you disregard NBA record or championship as crap, you still haven't counter argue what is relevant to who's a better Knicks player... so what is it then?

Again, your argument makes no sense. You keep trying to use the fact that Sprewell was on a Finals team to demonstrate that he was a better player than Melo. That is simply stupid. Postseason success isn't an individual accolade, it is a team accolade. Melo NEVER had the caliber of teammate that Sprewell did in New York, so it is inappropriate to bring team success into the discussion. For the record though, I could care less what you do with your respect. I'd just like to see a cogent debate being made.

As for NBA records, again, it is hardly relevant. When comparing two players you need to look at a body of work and not just individual games. I used the Scott Skiles example to demonstrate that point. By your line of reasoning, we should begin to entertain him being in conversations with the greatest PG's of all-time since he accomplished a feat that none of them did. That would be absurd. Jamal Crawford once had a 50 point game as a Knick. Does that make him worthy of being compared to Bernard King, Patrick Ewing, Carmelo Anthony, Earl the Pearl and the like? It would be frivolous to assume so.

Moving forward, you need to define what makes another player better than another. What does that involve in your opinion?

Oh god. You're doing this yet again. You still haven't answered the question.. so what IS RELEVANT to be the better KNICKS player? All you said up there was why I don't make any sense. I already defined mine in several points (see first post), whether you agree or not. You have YET to define yours. You keep avoiding answering it because ... you don't have an answer and hate my answer? If you make another post not answer directly my question to you, then I know you're just arguing for the sake of arguing and I have no patience to debate/argue with people like that because it's like arguing with a little kid saying 'no no no' 'no no no'.

I actually did that both directly and indirectly. I clearly suggested that you have to ignore team accomplishments and focus on individual accolades (examples I used included all-star appearances, All-NBA recognitions, statistic champion, etc). I also clearly stated that these accolades would have to be a part of a greater and more demonstrated body of work than individual games. If you invested as much time in reading comprehension as you did in being a condescending, smart-ass, you would've realized that.

All star games are more popularity contest, but if you want to go accolades.. spree made all nba first team and all NBA defense second team.. carmelo never, ever made an all defense team( no surprise there) and he never made all NBA first team... both guys made multiple all star games...

You do realize that the all defense and all NBA year was after he left the knicks right (93-94 with Minny)? This poll is about the knicks.

That same year, he was 11th in MVP voting (93-94 with Minny), never sniffed that close before. Carmelo was 3rd and 6th in voting.

How many times was Sprewell player of the Week? NONE. Player of the Month? NONE. Melo, Player of the week 18, player of the month 5.

Are you just cherry picking a bit?

Sprewell was the better defender but he would have to be the best defender in history * 20 to make up for the offensive gap of the two players.

tkf wrote:

mreinman wrote:

tkf wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

JamesLin wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

JamesLin wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:Because stuff like that doesn't seem to be accurate or tangent to the conversation. You're lauding Sprewell for getting us to the Finals as if the 14 other players and coach had nothing to do with it. Before New York, what was Sprewell? How well was he in getting the Warriors to the Finals? To the playoffs? Or even a winning record?

And who gives a **** if he holds an NBA record? Scott Skiles holds the record in assists. Does that mean he gets to be put in a conversation with John Stockton? If you really want to play the accolade game, Melo easily outshines Sprewell e.g. most points in a quarter (33), NBA scoring champion, more All-NBA recognitions, more all-star berths, etc. I just don't think that the line of reasoning that you're using holds any real weight in the kind of conversation that you're trying to have.

Ok, so which part is not accurate? Sprewell helped getting us to the NBA finals is not? I never said Sprewell one handed took us to the finals. So by your argument, if Carmelo took us to the finals, you're saying I will be lauding Melo for getting us to the Finals as if the 14 other players and coach had nothing to do with it? Who gives a **** if he holds an NBA record as a Knicks? Are you even a NBA fan then? So all your argument so far only states 'James, you're wrong, period and all records are useless in my book'. So, although I have a hard time even respecting you now as a somewhat basketball fan since you disregard NBA record or championship as crap, you still haven't counter argue what is relevant to who's a better Knicks player... so what is it then?

Again, your argument makes no sense. You keep trying to use the fact that Sprewell was on a Finals team to demonstrate that he was a better player than Melo. That is simply stupid. Postseason success isn't an individual accolade, it is a team accolade. Melo NEVER had the caliber of teammate that Sprewell did in New York, so it is inappropriate to bring team success into the discussion. For the record though, I could care less what you do with your respect. I'd just like to see a cogent debate being made.

As for NBA records, again, it is hardly relevant. When comparing two players you need to look at a body of work and not just individual games. I used the Scott Skiles example to demonstrate that point. By your line of reasoning, we should begin to entertain him being in conversations with the greatest PG's of all-time since he accomplished a feat that none of them did. That would be absurd. Jamal Crawford once had a 50 point game as a Knick. Does that make him worthy of being compared to Bernard King, Patrick Ewing, Carmelo Anthony, Earl the Pearl and the like? It would be frivolous to assume so.

Moving forward, you need to define what makes another player better than another. What does that involve in your opinion?

Oh god. You're doing this yet again. You still haven't answered the question.. so what IS RELEVANT to be the better KNICKS player? All you said up there was why I don't make any sense. I already defined mine in several points (see first post), whether you agree or not. You have YET to define yours. You keep avoiding answering it because ... you don't have an answer and hate my answer? If you make another post not answer directly my question to you, then I know you're just arguing for the sake of arguing and I have no patience to debate/argue with people like that because it's like arguing with a little kid saying 'no no no' 'no no no'.

I actually did that both directly and indirectly. I clearly suggested that you have to ignore team accomplishments and focus on individual accolades (examples I used included all-star appearances, All-NBA recognitions, statistic champion, etc). I also clearly stated that these accolades would have to be a part of a greater and more demonstrated body of work than individual games. If you invested as much time in reading comprehension as you did in being a condescending, smart-ass, you would've realized that.

All star games are more popularity contest, but if you want to go accolades.. spree made all nba first team and all NBA defense second team.. carmelo never, ever made an all defense team( no surprise there) and he never made all NBA first team... both guys made multiple all star games...

You do realize that the all defense and all NBA year was after he left the knicks right (93-94 with Minny)? This poll is about the knicks.

That same year, he was 11th in MVP voting (93-94 with Minny), never sniffed that close before. Carmelo was 3rd and 6th in voting.

How many times was Sprewell player of the Week? NONE. Player of the Month? NONE. Melo, Player of the week 18, player of the month 5.

Are you just cherry picking a bit?

Sprewell was the better defender but he would have to be the best defender in history * 20 to make up for the offensive gap of the two players.

no I don't realize that because that is not accurate.. the all NBA and all defense was when he was with the warriors.. he came to the knicks in 99, when he left he went to minny.. no way could he have been there in 93-94... so the question is, do you realize?

but if we are keeping it knicks.. then I go with sprewell getting the knicks to the finals, that trumps all, that trumps some BS allstar selections and some BS scoring title Durant let carmelo have...

How many times was Sprewell player of the Week? NONE. Player of the Month? NONE. Melo, Player of the week 18, player of the month 5.

Are you just cherry picking a bit?

how many nba finals games did carmelo play in? none?

let me ask you, which matters more?

You are right. It was with the GSW - mixed up the decade (my bad) :-)

Anyway, please go to basketball-reference.com:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/s/sprewla01.html

It does not seem that you have ever visited this site and I believe that it is imperative that you do.

Now, once you are there, please look at Sprewell's playoff numbers and let me know what you think.

Going to the finals is not an argument for a player unless you comprehend the impact that a player had to his team in this run. This is being used constantly as the ultimate straw man argument.

I don't believe in any accolades but you brought it up in your argument for Spree. Argue the numbers not the accolades.

Iverson was a detriment to his team. Did you read that article that I have posted for you so many times? Probably not just like you still will not look at players stats.

http://wagesofwins.com/2013/01/15/yeh-points-allen-iverson-what-was-the-question/

I implore you to educate yourself so that you are more informed and not looking at player value as if we were in the mid 80's.

LED THE TEAM IS SCORING IS LITERALLY THE SILLIEST ARGUMENT i HAVE EVER HEARD.

I asked you to look at his efficiency. Can you try?

Also, he was certainly a good defender nobody is arguing that.

Tkf. Stick to the argument. No need for the ad hominems.

And, I am not sure why you think that basketball reference site is "old". What the heck does that mean? What site do you use for stats? Yahoo?

mreinman wrote:see edited post please about the all nba and all defense. Still not with Knicks. Either way, accolades for the most part are meaningless. Jeff Hornacek had zero accolades yet he was a phenomenal player and extremely underrated.

LED THE TEAM IS SCORING IS LITERALLY THE SILLIEST ARGUMENT i HAVE EVER HEARD.

I asked you to look at his efficiency. Can you try?

Also, he was certainly a good defender nobody is arguing that.

Tkf. Stick to the argument. No need for the ad hominems.

not when you are asking about impact.. he was the teams best defender, played 3 positions for the knicks, led them in scoring as well.. so now you want to look at efficiency... time to move the goal post..

efficiency is one part of the game, but when you do other things well it tends to balance, that is what he did, he took them to the finals.. are you going to argue that fact????

difference is, carmelo is inefficient and he loses.. he does nothing else.. sprewell can be inefficient yet still very effective... the other parts of his game more than compensated....

the proof is in the pudding unless the finals appearance never happened?