Dagger wrote:

tkf wrote:

Dagger wrote:

tkf wrote:

Dagger wrote:

tkf wrote:

Dagger wrote:

Vmart wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:You can win a championship with melo if you have the right pg. Melo is the best scorer in the nba so he wont be a 2nd option on no team. A pg like rondo who will do the trick. He has the personality and is definitely a floor general. Theres a short list of pg's in this league that can play with melo..cp3,rondo, kyrie

He is not the best scorer in the league he is the best volume shooter in the league.

Does that mean Tyson Chandler is the best scorer in the league? His FG% is SO high, He's super-de-duper effishunt!

let me ask you this.. durant won 3 of the last 4 scoring titles... and honestly pretty much tied last year for the lead....

do you still consider carmelo the best scorer in the league?

No, but I never said he was...I'd say he's top 3 and I know you don't agree with that.

well you have kobe, lebron, durant... so no, I don't agree... again, objectively look at this...

I am looking at it objectively, and he's better than Kobe at this point in their careers. I said top 3 because I agree Durant and Lebron are better.

I think you have the word "objective" confused with "tkf's viewpoint". I promise the two are not the same thing. My opinion that Melo was better than Kobe last year can be backed up by facts, but I accept it's still an opinion. You seem to think everything you say is a fact.

so what you are saying is that best scorer is a year to year thing.. you see you are too involved with getting after "tkf" that you completely muddle your own arguments..

So you say that carmelo was better than kobe last year? but what does that have to do with the statement of him being the best scorer in the league? I heard that crap around here the years durant was running away with the scoring title...

so what criteria are you using.. for me, I am using more than just a year, the same way I do with MVP voting.. if you are consistently top 5 players in scoring every year, i consider you to be one of the best scorers..

But lets keep it real.. lets start back in 2005, kobe has never finished out side of the top 5 scorers. carmelo has.. 3 times! kobe also won two scoring titles, finished second twice, and even last year finished a close 3rd and had he not gotten hurt, who knows...

Those are the numbers.. Kobe is still a better scorer bro...

I used last year as the criteria because these things change over time as players age and their skills diminish. I obviously meant that Carmelo was a better scorer last year than Kobe, I thought that was clear. Are you so daft that that you refuse to see that things like top scorer in the league change over time, each year you have different results, and LAST YEAR, the most RECENT YEAR, I believe Melo was better than Kobe. If you have a problem with that...I couldn't care less. You're using a third place finish to defend Kobe when Melo finished #1, just cut it out. Did I say Melo is the better scorer throughout their careers? I said at this point in time, reading comprehension "bro".

let me ask you. are you so daft that you fail to realize that when someone says, X player is a better scorer than Y player that you just don't take into account one year? why would I just assume you are talking LAST YEAR, when every year, the same myth is thrown out there about carmelo being the BEST scorer in the league? which rock were you hiding under when all of this talk was taking place...

ou're using a third place finish to defend Kobe when Melo finished #1, just cut it out. Did I say Melo is the better scorer throughout their careers? I said at this point in time, reading comprehension "bro".

rofl, talk about being daft? NO I am not using a third place finish, which is why I posted what I did regarding scoring finishes since 2005..

Did I say Melo is the better scorer throughout their careers?

so you obviously acknowledged the criteria I was using, and the question is very odd since I never accused you of doing so.. The discussion wasn't about who was better last year, and you know it.. now you are trying to shift gears to defend your point of view which was not in question here.. is this too much to keep up with?

fishmike wrote:Melo is a max player. Not even a debate. I love the arguement to get two $10mm guys. Its laughable. Like Gallo and Iggy together are higher impact than Melo

Our PGs are so lame we need to play two at a time. Our #2 scorer makes Jamal Crawford look selective and shot like 30% in the playoffs. I actually find that shocking because I dont actually remember JR hitting *ANY* shots. Our center has no offensive game whatsoever and when he tries to hit that 12 foot open jumper Im actually embarassed for him.

But yea.. despite leading his team to most wins in a decade, advancing for the first time in a decade, winning a scoring title, all star, 3rd in MVP voting equalling Kobe+CP3s (not the same as finishing 13th say) Melo is regarded as not being able to stand on his own merits.

I look at the Knick roster last year and its terrible. One might say we had depth, others might realize we desperately needed bigtime stretches from guys like Kidd, KMart etc to continue winning because its a pretty bad team after Melo.

I hope like hell Artest stays healthy... he could really be a huge pickup for us

well fish, how can you prove that they don't.. both were starters on a team that won 57 games.. I would call that impact.. wouldn't you?

But yea.. despite leading his team to most wins in a decade, advancing for the first time in a decade, winning a scoring title, all star, 3rd in MVP voting equalling Kobe+CP3s (not the same as finishing 13th say) Melo is regarded as not being able to stand on his own merits.

fish, we went to the finals with spree and Houston.. so what, who cares about leaving the first round and then getting owned by a team most NY fans said we were better than... is that what we made this trade for?

I look at the Knick roster last year and its terrible. One might say we had depth, others might realize we desperately needed bigtime stretches from guys like Kidd, KMart etc to continue winning because its a pretty bad team after Melo.

that always seems to be an excuse for carmelo and the teams he plays on... after 13 years, I say it just can't be done.. and since this seems to always be the case, isn't this a prime reason to just tear all of this down and start over?

tkf wrote:

fishmike wrote:Melo is a max player. Not even a debate. I love the arguement to get two $10mm guys. Its laughable. Like Gallo and Iggy together are higher impact than Melo

Our PGs are so lame we need to play two at a time. Our #2 scorer makes Jamal Crawford look selective and shot like 30% in the playoffs. I actually find that shocking because I dont actually remember JR hitting *ANY* shots. Our center has no offensive game whatsoever and when he tries to hit that 12 foot open jumper Im actually embarassed for him.

But yea.. despite leading his team to most wins in a decade, advancing for the first time in a decade, winning a scoring title, all star, 3rd in MVP voting equalling Kobe+CP3s (not the same as finishing 13th say) Melo is regarded as not being able to stand on his own merits.

I look at the Knick roster last year and its terrible. One might say we had depth, others might realize we desperately needed bigtime stretches from guys like Kidd, KMart etc to continue winning because its a pretty bad team after Melo.

I hope like hell Artest stays healthy... he could really be a huge pickup for us

well fish, how can you prove that they don't.. both were starters on a team that won 57 games.. I would call that impact.. wouldn't you?

But yea.. despite leading his team to most wins in a decade, advancing for the first time in a decade, winning a scoring title, all star, 3rd in MVP voting equalling Kobe+CP3s (not the same as finishing 13th say) Melo is regarded as not being able to stand on his own merits.

fish, we went to the finals with spree and Houston.. so what, who cares about leaving the first round and then getting owned by a team most NY fans said we were better than... is that what we made this trade for?

I look at the Knick roster last year and its terrible. One might say we had depth, others might realize we desperately needed bigtime stretches from guys like Kidd, KMart etc to continue winning because its a pretty bad team after Melo.

that always seems to be an excuse for carmelo and the teams he plays on... after 13 years, I say it just can't be done.. and since this seems to always be the case, isn't this a prime reason to just tear all of this down and start over?

So your saying is you dont believe we can win a title around Carmelo or as presently constructed. So your plan would be to give up trying? You would rather watch Dolan's carosel of inept front office donkeys draft and trade and draft and trade?

I understand your point, but there is no logic or sound reasoning behind it. Denver got a great package for Melo, picks youg players, plus they had some young guys ready to take a bigger step also. Yet they are no closer to winning a title then when they had Melo. Oh right. Gallo got hurt (excuse). Oh right. They are more flexible? Are they getting Lebron? Durant? Any of the other max players who deserve it? Nope.

TFK.. the only thing all your musings have proven, is thats its YOUR preference to watcing losing basketball without Melo than to watch winning basketball with him.

Guy finishes 3rd in MVP voting and you actually cling to some notion that you can marginalize his impact on the team last year. There a alot of problems with the KNicks, and yes... Melo has holes in his game, but your focus is laughable.

Yea... cling to what Charles Barkley says. Good stuff. Maybe you should switch to hating Dolan because Melo was great last year and it showed in his MVP share (which it has NOT in the past). Its like defending gay marriage with a born again Nazi. I actually wonder why keep hammering away at this. Did you get kicked off realGM?

fishmike wrote:Melo is a max player. Not even a debate. I love the arguement to get two $10mm guys. Its laughable. Like Gallo and Iggy together are higher impact than Melo

Our PGs are so lame we need to play two at a time. Our #2 scorer makes Jamal Crawford look selective and shot like 30% in the playoffs. I actually find that shocking because I dont actually remember JR hitting *ANY* shots. Our center has no offensive game whatsoever and when he tries to hit that 12 foot open jumper Im actually embarassed for him.

But yea.. despite leading his team to most wins in a decade, advancing for the first time in a decade, winning a scoring title, all star, 3rd in MVP voting equalling Kobe+CP3s (not the same as finishing 13th say) Melo is regarded as not being able to stand on his own merits.

I look at the Knick roster last year and its terrible. One might say we had depth, others might realize we desperately needed bigtime stretches from guys like Kidd, KMart etc to continue winning because its a pretty bad team after Melo.

I hope like hell Artest stays healthy... he could really be a huge pickup for us

he created the situation you are complaining about in terms of a weakened roster... yet you say he is a max player. do you mean inherently a max player or what the "market will demand?"

dk7th wrote:dolan=clown + lowlife. mills=isiah/dolan puppet, likely lowlife. woodson=inept, unimaginative, hypocrite. the roster=mostly one-way players, non-versatile & mismatched=impossible to gel. defend? fuggedaBOWdit. THE FISH ROTS FROM THE HEAD DOWN.

fishmike wrote:

tkf wrote:

fishmike wrote:Melo is a max player. Not even a debate. I love the arguement to get two $10mm guys. Its laughable. Like Gallo and Iggy together are higher impact than Melo

Our PGs are so lame we need to play two at a time. Our #2 scorer makes Jamal Crawford look selective and shot like 30% in the playoffs. I actually find that shocking because I dont actually remember JR hitting *ANY* shots. Our center has no offensive game whatsoever and when he tries to hit that 12 foot open jumper Im actually embarassed for him.

But yea.. despite leading his team to most wins in a decade, advancing for the first time in a decade, winning a scoring title, all star, 3rd in MVP voting equalling Kobe+CP3s (not the same as finishing 13th say) Melo is regarded as not being able to stand on his own merits.

I look at the Knick roster last year and its terrible. One might say we had depth, others might realize we desperately needed bigtime stretches from guys like Kidd, KMart etc to continue winning because its a pretty bad team after Melo.

I hope like hell Artest stays healthy... he could really be a huge pickup for us

well fish, how can you prove that they don't.. both were starters on a team that won 57 games.. I would call that impact.. wouldn't you?

But yea.. despite leading his team to most wins in a decade, advancing for the first time in a decade, winning a scoring title, all star, 3rd in MVP voting equalling Kobe+CP3s (not the same as finishing 13th say) Melo is regarded as not being able to stand on his own merits.

fish, we went to the finals with spree and Houston.. so what, who cares about leaving the first round and then getting owned by a team most NY fans said we were better than... is that what we made this trade for?

I look at the Knick roster last year and its terrible. One might say we had depth, others might realize we desperately needed bigtime stretches from guys like Kidd, KMart etc to continue winning because its a pretty bad team after Melo.

that always seems to be an excuse for carmelo and the teams he plays on... after 13 years, I say it just can't be done.. and since this seems to always be the case, isn't this a prime reason to just tear all of this down and start over?

all your doing to sharing your opinion of Melo. Mine was pretty poor. It improved after last year because I actually watched.

So your saying is you dont believe we can win a title around Carmelo or as presently constructed. So your plan would be to give up trying? You would rather watch Dolan's carosel of inept front office donkeys draft and trade and draft and trade?

I understand your point, but there is no logic or sound reasoning behind it. Denver got a great package for Melo, picks youg players, plus they had some young guys ready to take a bigger step also. Yet they are no closer to winning a title then when they had Melo. Oh right. Gallo got hurt (excuse). Oh right. They are more flexible? Are they getting Lebron? Durant? Any of the other max players who deserve it? Nope.

TFK.. the only thing all your musings have proven, is thats its YOUR preference to watcing losing basketball without Melo than to watch winning basketball with him.

Guy finishes 3rd in MVP voting and you actually cling to some notion that you can marginalize his impact on the team last year. There a alot of problems with the KNicks, and yes... Melo has holes in his game, but your focus is laughable.

Yea... cling to what Charles Barkley says. Good stuff. Maybe you should switch to hating Dolan because Melo was great last year and it showed in his MVP share (which it has NOT in the past). Its like defending gay marriage with a born again Nazi. I actually wonder why keep hammering away at this. Did you get kicked off realGM?

the difference with me fish is that I also actually watched, but I also wathed carmelo even before he came here.. that I can say.. so my opinion is based on years of watching, and data...

TFK.. the only thing all your musings have proven, is thats its YOUR preference to watcing losing basketball without Melo than to watch winning basketball with him.

No, never said that.. but what I guess you are saying is that the only way the knicks could ever play winning basketball was to trade for him? because before the trade we were 28-26 that is winning....

but really I rather build towards a true contender than root for fools gold ball, which is what we have now..

Guy finishes 3rd in MVP voting and you actually cling to some notion that you can marginalize his impact on the team last year. There a alot of problems with the KNicks, and yes... Melo has holes in his game, but your focus is laughable.

how much emphasis are you going to put on a guy getting one first place vote fish? how much? we got carmelo to be contenders right? but we are far from that, so as far as I am concerned last year was a failure.. second round flame out... not really competitive.. that is what I judge things by.. not some ridiculous 3rd place mvp voting finish in which he had no shot of ever winning the actual award.. no need to marginalize that. it speaks for itself!

Yea... cling to what Charles Barkley says. Good stuff. Maybe you should switch to hating Dolan because Melo was great last year and it showed in his MVP share (which it has NOT in the past). Its like defending gay marriage with a born again Nazi. I actually wonder why keep hammering away at this. Did you get kicked off realGM?

why cling to what barkley says, I was saying this stuff before him..

I actually wonder why keep hammering away at this. Did you get kicked off realGM?

what does real GM have to do with this? more frustration on your part I guess...

but don't worry bro.. as soon as he signs that extension.. I'M out for the next 5 years until he is gone...

Fishmike is right though. Hopefully Artest and how dare I say STAT, can stay healthy. If yes, then we are a better team than last year. Especially if Shumpert goes to the next level.

GustavBahler wrote:I remember a game JVG covered and the subject of a player (might have been Melo) and assists came up. He pointed out that you shouldn't judge a player's willingness to share the ball strictly by that stat. Jeff pointed out that most pts put on the board involve more than one pass. Let's see how much Melo is involved in those types of situations this season, instead of using assists as the only barometer of how much Melo is involving his teammates in the offense.

I hope the team as a whole sets more picks/screens for each other this season. They never seem to do much of it no matter who is the coach.

uhhh i think i've had this one covered for a good while now:

1) go to the basketballreference.com and scroll down to advanced stats on melo's page

2) look at his usage rate and then divide it by the assist rate. the assist rate is exactly what jvg is
referring to, i.e. it measures how well a player keeps others involved. anything over 2 to 1 is bad for a frontcourt player.

tkf wrote:

Overlord wrote:you guys realize you're arguing with a man who hates Melo on a PERSONAL level? A man who admitted on RealGM that he would HATE Melo even IF he ever won a title in NY? I'd implore you all to stop wasting your time on this sad man.

where did i post that?

play coy all you want

everyone on RealGM knows you said that. God Shammgod and all the mods remember that CLEARLY.

dk7th wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

dk7th wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:I remember a game JVG covered and the subject of a player (might have been Melo) and assists came up. He pointed out that you shouldn't judge a player's willingness to share the ball strictly by that stat. Jeff pointed out that most pts put on the board involve more than one pass. Let's see how much Melo is involved in those types of situations this season, instead of using assists as the only barometer of how much Melo is involving his teammates in the offense.

I hope the team as a whole sets more picks/screens for each other this season. They never seem to do much of it no matter who is the coach.

uhhh i think i've had this one covered for a good while now:

1) go to the basketballreference.com and scroll down to advanced stats on melo's page

2) look at his usage rate and then divide it by the assist rate. the assist rate is exactly what jvg is
referring to, i.e. it measures how well a player keeps others involved. anything over 2 to 1 is bad for a frontcourt player.

Thanks, does the usage rate include instances where a player sharing the ball does not result in pts being scored?

it is simply the percentage of possessions the player A utilizes regardless of points scored or not. specifically it adds FGA + adjusted FTA (.44) + adjusted individual assists (.33) + TOs

the assist rate meanwhile is the percentage of time a different teammate was assisted by player A while player A was on the floor. it is not clear if the measure includes actual raw assists or also factors in "hockey assists" or the pass that leads to the pass that leads to the assist. (it really ought to.)

hence the logic of showing them in a ratio. the more the player acts as a catalyst for a possession the lower you want the ratio to be.

nash and paul and stockton were in the range of .38 to 1.

jordan and bryant 1.35 to 1. wade, a hybrid, is 1 to 1.

bird and lebron are around 1 to 1.

durant has been trending lower each season and was an astonishing 1.37 to 1, which in addition to his efficiency makes him a legit mvp player. paul george was great as well, better than great for a small forward: 1 to 1. paul pierce is always around 1.2 to 1.

melo? 2.5 to 1 which is terrible. combined with mediocre efficiency of around 55TS% it becomes a recipe for losing in the playoffs.

Interesting. My main criticism of Melo has been his propensity to play heroball at times since he came to NY, not trusting his teammates enough. I might have been the first person on this board to use that expression in reference to Melo.

Regardless, last season we lost pretty much the bulk of our frontcourt reserves for most of the season, we had 2 PGs in Priggs and Kidd with an aversion to taking it to the rim, Tyson a shell of his DPOY self, Stat MIA, and Felton having trouble running the point at times. I can't fault him for taking as much on his plate as he did to keep us in the hunt. This season I believe the odds are that we will lose some players, but not at the same clip as last season. I don't believe he will feel the need to take over games as much. At least I hope it doesn't come to that.