StarksEwing1 wrote:

gunsnewing wrote:Because Melo is worth that to Dolan if we make the playoffs

Dolan doesnt give a damn about winning. I envy the Spurs organization. They have been a contender for like 15 years straight and winning a bunch of titles helps too. Even when their stars are getting older they bring in talent that helps them continue to be a top team

+1000000000

nixluva wrote:

knickscity wrote:

nixluva wrote:

knickscity wrote:

nixluva wrote:

tkf wrote:

knickscity wrote:

tkf wrote:

nixluva wrote:I would love to have seen Melo playing with a really good PG. For one thing it would mitigate some of his flaws and improve his strengths. Having an attacking and great passing PG would really help a lot. I'd love to see a kid like Rondo play with Melo. The roster is flawed in that regard since we have Felton who isn't a great passer and have to supplement his game with Prigs just to get some decent PG play to run this team. IMO part of Melo's issues have come from talented but flawed teams he's played on. When he had Billups things improved but that wasn't for a long enough stretch of time. It's not so much that you have to have a BETTER player next to Melo. Rather you need a SMARTER TEAM player next to him that can run the team and control Melo's game.

if you need to get someone to control your max players game, then what in the world would you pay that person?

He essentially called Melo dumb.

lol....

Both of you are being ASSES!!! What I wrote was clear. You put a smarter TEAM player at PG that can run and control the team as well as Melo. When we have Prigs in the game he's running the offense and that doesn't allow things to devolve into Melo feeling he has to go ISO just for the team to score. It's not about Melo not being good enough, but rather using his talent in the conjunction with the rest of the team in the best way. We don't have a great PG who can run the entire team as well as score on his own, so we have to meld Felton/Prigs/Udrih in order to try and keep the ball moving and get players in the right spots.

The Point is that if you don't run good offense with the supporting cast that leaves Melo left with only ISO plays. When we were kicking teams in the teeth last year, we got good TEAM BB from the supporting cast and that kept Melo from having to go ISO too much. That's why I posted that quote which showed just how efficient the team was when running actual plays as opposed to ISO.

As one of the league's best offenses during the regular season, the Knicks used 15.9 isolations per game. In the playoffs, it's been 26.6.

Melo's preference is to iso, he's good at it, but it doesnt win when it matters.

Woody prefers to iso as well, he has a history of utilizing that.

Woody cares about ball movment and taking the open shot...basketball basics....neither melo or Woody would know what to do with a true pg on the team, as it takes the ball out of both of their control.

But you are calling Melo a dumb player, but ironically he's smarter than you give him credit for...he can actually run the offense himself, it's by design why he plays the way he do.

Not to compare the two, but do you know that Melo possesses the same skillset as Lebron?

Only difference...one is committed to their entire skillset, Melo is just committed to scoring.

But there isnt a single skill that LeBron possesses that melo doesnt.

I do believe Melo can pass more but the issue is that ISO did increase because Woodson allowed it to happen. Melo will run the plays the coach calls but if you don't make it a priority to stick to Ball and Player Movement then it's all too easy to end up with a bunch of Melo and JR ISO's. The offense was efficient last year because we had good balance of Team BB and ISO plays. When that balance got out of whack in the playoffs the offense suffered.

Melo has always been an iso player, way before Woody.

You can say stick to this or that, but those shots have to fall eventually, which they werent.

The offense was good when guys hit shots, plain and simple....Ronnie Brewer was sticking threes in the beginning as was kidd.

Shots stop falling, someone has to take over...enter Melo, enter JR.

You're oversimplifying. The real issue isn't that Melo is an ISO player. The issue is that as a team they have to make sure to keep balance between the ISO plays and good Ball and Player Movement. There are tons of ways to get good Ball and Player movement besides just shooting 3's.

There are of course lots of other plays, but you get the point. Just run good BB plays and you don't have to over rely on ISO.

the play, the ball and movement means nothing when they ball doesnt go through the hoop.

nixluva wrote:

knickscity wrote:No, you have to make shots....the team reverts to iso because thats what they want to do instead of sticking to a plan every time something goes south.

the play, the ball and movement means nothing when they ball doesnt go through the hoop.

Yes players have to make shots, but is it really hard to understand that this team gets better shots when they have good Ball and Player movement and less standing around and holding the ball going ISO?
Letting Melo get a few ISO plays during a game is fine as long as the percentage of those looks are kept in check and we get more actual offense in the flow.

All the stats prove that this team is better when they mix things up and keep the ball and players moving and not get stagnant. IMO this is up to Woody to make sure the team stays disciplined offensively. The Ball has to move and they need to make sure they execute their plays at a high level. When the ball moves this team is hard to stop. Woodson has to POUND that into the heads of his players and make sure that they maintain that approach.

Woody cant control missed shots.

Dagger wrote:

OasisBU wrote:Lebron took less and so should Melo.

He isn't worth that kind of money and needs to sacrifice some extra pay to get a true sidekick.

Yup. Another thing to consider: Is Melo waiting for his pippen, or is melo himself actually Pippen, the robin to another star's batman? This is the year for melo, if he can demonstrate that alpha star mentality and lead us to REAL success in the postseason then we can begin to talk bigger money with him, as we'll actually have reason to believe he can successfully be the centerpiece of a team. Until then, I see no reason to be sold on this dude being a 27 million dollar player.

Yeah amazing how the last two years were alos talked up as being the "Year Melo has to prove himself". Still waiting.

BRIGGS wrote:Derrick favors just got 12.25mm per. So can we shut this thread down?

dk7th wrote:

knickscity wrote:

nixluva wrote:

knickscity wrote:

nixluva wrote:

tkf wrote:

knickscity wrote:

tkf wrote:

nixluva wrote:I would love to have seen Melo playing with a really good PG. For one thing it would mitigate some of his flaws and improve his strengths. Having an attacking and great passing PG would really help a lot. I'd love to see a kid like Rondo play with Melo. The roster is flawed in that regard since we have Felton who isn't a great passer and have to supplement his game with Prigs just to get some decent PG play to run this team. IMO part of Melo's issues have come from talented but flawed teams he's played on. When he had Billups things improved but that wasn't for a long enough stretch of time. It's not so much that you have to have a BETTER player next to Melo. Rather you need a SMARTER TEAM player next to him that can run the team and control Melo's game.

if you need to get someone to control your max players game, then what in the world would you pay that person?

He essentially called Melo dumb.

lol....

Both of you are being ASSES!!! What I wrote was clear. You put a smarter TEAM player at PG that can run and control the team as well as Melo. When we have Prigs in the game he's running the offense and that doesn't allow things to devolve into Melo feeling he has to go ISO just for the team to score. It's not about Melo not being good enough, but rather using his talent in the conjunction with the rest of the team in the best way. We don't have a great PG who can run the entire team as well as score on his own, so we have to meld Felton/Prigs/Udrih in order to try and keep the ball moving and get players in the right spots.

The Point is that if you don't run good offense with the supporting cast that leaves Melo left with only ISO plays. When we were kicking teams in the teeth last year, we got good TEAM BB from the supporting cast and that kept Melo from having to go ISO too much. That's why I posted that quote which showed just how efficient the team was when running actual plays as opposed to ISO.

As one of the league's best offenses during the regular season, the Knicks used 15.9 isolations per game. In the playoffs, it's been 26.6.

Melo's preference is to iso, he's good at it, but it doesnt win when it matters.

Woody prefers to iso as well, he has a history of utilizing that.

Woody cares about ball movment and taking the open shot...basketball basics....neither melo or Woody would know what to do with a true pg on the team, as it takes the ball out of both of their control.

But you are calling Melo a dumb player, but ironically he's smarter than you give him credit for...he can actually run the offense himself, it's by design why he plays the way he do.

Not to compare the two, but do you know that Melo possesses the same skillset as Lebron?

Only difference...one is committed to their entire skillset, Melo is just committed to scoring.

But there isnt a single skill that LeBron possesses that melo doesnt.

I do believe Melo can pass more but the issue is that ISO did increase because Woodson allowed it to happen. Melo will run the plays the coach calls but if you don't make it a priority to stick to Ball and Player Movement then it's all too easy to end up with a bunch of Melo and JR ISO's. The offense was efficient last year because we had good balance of Team BB and ISO plays. When that balance got out of whack in the playoffs the offense suffered.

Melo has always been an iso player, way before Woody.

You can say stick to this or that, but those shots have to fall eventually, which they werent.

The offense was good when guys hit shots, plain and simple....Ronnie Brewer was sticking threes in the beginning as was kidd.

Shots stop falling, someone has to take over...enter Melo, enter JR.

either "take over" or "put the team on ones back"... or continue to work the ball even if it means losing a few more games in the regular season.

you may lose a battle in doing so but you stand a better chance of winning the war. it's a team game and if there is no genuine cohesion-- and confidence is a facet of cohesion, as is resilience-- then the team will be exposed during the playoffs.

teamwork
cohesion
resilience
versatility
ubuntu

Some players literally wanted no part of the basketball.

So then the "takeover" mode kicked in.

Now when someone is "lighting it up" you feed that no matter who it is.

There were moments in the playoffs where this could have been done and wasnt....plenty of it on display in the Pacer series.

At that point what you're saying should have been in full effect....but you cant force what isnt there.

dk7th wrote:

knickscity wrote:

dk7th wrote:

knickscity wrote:

nixluva wrote:

knickscity wrote:

nixluva wrote:

tkf wrote:

knickscity wrote:

tkf wrote:

nixluva wrote:I would love to have seen Melo playing with a really good PG. For one thing it would mitigate some of his flaws and improve his strengths. Having an attacking and great passing PG would really help a lot. I'd love to see a kid like Rondo play with Melo. The roster is flawed in that regard since we have Felton who isn't a great passer and have to supplement his game with Prigs just to get some decent PG play to run this team. IMO part of Melo's issues have come from talented but flawed teams he's played on. When he had Billups things improved but that wasn't for a long enough stretch of time. It's not so much that you have to have a BETTER player next to Melo. Rather you need a SMARTER TEAM player next to him that can run the team and control Melo's game.

if you need to get someone to control your max players game, then what in the world would you pay that person?

He essentially called Melo dumb.

lol....

Both of you are being ASSES!!! What I wrote was clear. You put a smarter TEAM player at PG that can run and control the team as well as Melo. When we have Prigs in the game he's running the offense and that doesn't allow things to devolve into Melo feeling he has to go ISO just for the team to score. It's not about Melo not being good enough, but rather using his talent in the conjunction with the rest of the team in the best way. We don't have a great PG who can run the entire team as well as score on his own, so we have to meld Felton/Prigs/Udrih in order to try and keep the ball moving and get players in the right spots.

The Point is that if you don't run good offense with the supporting cast that leaves Melo left with only ISO plays. When we were kicking teams in the teeth last year, we got good TEAM BB from the supporting cast and that kept Melo from having to go ISO too much. That's why I posted that quote which showed just how efficient the team was when running actual plays as opposed to ISO.

As one of the league's best offenses during the regular season, the Knicks used 15.9 isolations per game. In the playoffs, it's been 26.6.

Melo's preference is to iso, he's good at it, but it doesnt win when it matters.

Woody prefers to iso as well, he has a history of utilizing that.

Woody cares about ball movment and taking the open shot...basketball basics....neither melo or Woody would know what to do with a true pg on the team, as it takes the ball out of both of their control.

But you are calling Melo a dumb player, but ironically he's smarter than you give him credit for...he can actually run the offense himself, it's by design why he plays the way he do.

Not to compare the two, but do you know that Melo possesses the same skillset as Lebron?

Only difference...one is committed to their entire skillset, Melo is just committed to scoring.

But there isnt a single skill that LeBron possesses that melo doesnt.

I do believe Melo can pass more but the issue is that ISO did increase because Woodson allowed it to happen. Melo will run the plays the coach calls but if you don't make it a priority to stick to Ball and Player Movement then it's all too easy to end up with a bunch of Melo and JR ISO's. The offense was efficient last year because we had good balance of Team BB and ISO plays. When that balance got out of whack in the playoffs the offense suffered.

Melo has always been an iso player, way before Woody.

You can say stick to this or that, but those shots have to fall eventually, which they werent.

The offense was good when guys hit shots, plain and simple....Ronnie Brewer was sticking threes in the beginning as was kidd.

Shots stop falling, someone has to take over...enter Melo, enter JR.

either "take over" or "put the team on ones back"... or continue to work the ball even if it means losing a few more games in the regular season.

you may lose a battle in doing so but you stand a better chance of winning the war. it's a team game and if there is no genuine cohesion-- and confidence is a facet of cohesion, as is resilience-- then the team will be exposed during the playoffs.

teamwork
cohesion
resilience
versatility
ubuntu

Sounds great, but what do you do when players actually pass up open shots because their confidence is shot? That happened last year.

Some players literally wanted no part of the basketball.

So then the "takeover" mode kicked in.

Now when someone is "lighting it up" you feed that no matter who it is.

There were moments in the playoffs where this could have been done and wasnt....plenty of it on display in the Pacer series.

At that point what you're saying should have been in full effect....but you cant force what isnt there.

in the regular season the coach has to encourage, even insist, that players who appear gun-shy, know they have the green light to shoot high quality shots, where missing such shots has no punitive consequences. how else do you assess a player until he does so? doug collins used to say that no coach is going to castigate a player for taking a good shot. melo has shown to take an average of 4-5 bad shots a game. those are shots that teammates should be taking. in the big picture, the playoffs ramp up the pressure as it is, so all the more reason to use the regular season to mold players.

you need to ask yourself "why is the confidence shot in players?" i have given my answer many times but few among the faithful want to consider it...

It's best to have them do other things and ween them into getting their shot back....other wise all of their shots will be bad shots.

dk7th wrote:

knickscity wrote:

dk7th wrote:

knickscity wrote:

dk7th wrote:

knickscity wrote:

nixluva wrote:

knickscity wrote:

nixluva wrote:

tkf wrote:

knickscity wrote:

tkf wrote:

nixluva wrote:I would love to have seen Melo playing with a really good PG. For one thing it would mitigate some of his flaws and improve his strengths. Having an attacking and great passing PG would really help a lot. I'd love to see a kid like Rondo play with Melo. The roster is flawed in that regard since we have Felton who isn't a great passer and have to supplement his game with Prigs just to get some decent PG play to run this team. IMO part of Melo's issues have come from talented but flawed teams he's played on. When he had Billups things improved but that wasn't for a long enough stretch of time. It's not so much that you have to have a BETTER player next to Melo. Rather you need a SMARTER TEAM player next to him that can run the team and control Melo's game.

if you need to get someone to control your max players game, then what in the world would you pay that person?

He essentially called Melo dumb.

lol....

Both of you are being ASSES!!! What I wrote was clear. You put a smarter TEAM player at PG that can run and control the team as well as Melo. When we have Prigs in the game he's running the offense and that doesn't allow things to devolve into Melo feeling he has to go ISO just for the team to score. It's not about Melo not being good enough, but rather using his talent in the conjunction with the rest of the team in the best way. We don't have a great PG who can run the entire team as well as score on his own, so we have to meld Felton/Prigs/Udrih in order to try and keep the ball moving and get players in the right spots.

The Point is that if you don't run good offense with the supporting cast that leaves Melo left with only ISO plays. When we were kicking teams in the teeth last year, we got good TEAM BB from the supporting cast and that kept Melo from having to go ISO too much. That's why I posted that quote which showed just how efficient the team was when running actual plays as opposed to ISO.

As one of the league's best offenses during the regular season, the Knicks used 15.9 isolations per game. In the playoffs, it's been 26.6.

Melo's preference is to iso, he's good at it, but it doesnt win when it matters.

Woody prefers to iso as well, he has a history of utilizing that.

Woody cares about ball movment and taking the open shot...basketball basics....neither melo or Woody would know what to do with a true pg on the team, as it takes the ball out of both of their control.

But you are calling Melo a dumb player, but ironically he's smarter than you give him credit for...he can actually run the offense himself, it's by design why he plays the way he do.

Not to compare the two, but do you know that Melo possesses the same skillset as Lebron?

Only difference...one is committed to their entire skillset, Melo is just committed to scoring.

But there isnt a single skill that LeBron possesses that melo doesnt.

I do believe Melo can pass more but the issue is that ISO did increase because Woodson allowed it to happen. Melo will run the plays the coach calls but if you don't make it a priority to stick to Ball and Player Movement then it's all too easy to end up with a bunch of Melo and JR ISO's. The offense was efficient last year because we had good balance of Team BB and ISO plays. When that balance got out of whack in the playoffs the offense suffered.

Melo has always been an iso player, way before Woody.

You can say stick to this or that, but those shots have to fall eventually, which they werent.

The offense was good when guys hit shots, plain and simple....Ronnie Brewer was sticking threes in the beginning as was kidd.

Shots stop falling, someone has to take over...enter Melo, enter JR.

either "take over" or "put the team on ones back"... or continue to work the ball even if it means losing a few more games in the regular season.

you may lose a battle in doing so but you stand a better chance of winning the war. it's a team game and if there is no genuine cohesion-- and confidence is a facet of cohesion, as is resilience-- then the team will be exposed during the playoffs.

teamwork
cohesion
resilience
versatility
ubuntu

Sounds great, but what do you do when players actually pass up open shots because their confidence is shot? That happened last year.

Some players literally wanted no part of the basketball.

So then the "takeover" mode kicked in.

Now when someone is "lighting it up" you feed that no matter who it is.

There were moments in the playoffs where this could have been done and wasnt....plenty of it on display in the Pacer series.

At that point what you're saying should have been in full effect....but you cant force what isnt there.

in the regular season the coach has to encourage, even insist, that players who appear gun-shy, know they have the green light to shoot high quality shots, where missing such shots has no punitive consequences. how else do you assess a player until he does so? doug collins used to say that no coach is going to castigate a player for taking a good shot. melo has shown to take an average of 4-5 bad shots a game. those are shots that teammates should be taking. in the big picture, the playoffs ramp up the pressure as it is, so all the more reason to use the regular season to mold players.

you need to ask yourself "why is the confidence shot in players?" i have given my answer many times but few among the faithful want to consider it...

Sometimes a players confidence is shot simply because they keep missing....force feeding them the ball doesnt raise their confidence, it usually lowers it.

It's best to have them do other things and ween them into getting their shot back....other wise all of their shots will be bad shots.

that is a good point. but in game situations that can be a challenge. if woodson did not so transparently play favorites and actually sat players down who were taking bad or ill-advised shots maybe that would have a salutary effect on others. it may come back to the culture of the team... playing favorites is not healthy.

The funny thing though is Woody still went back to these guys when the playoffs started...Copeland missed every shot he took against Boston iirc.....and then went back to him again in the Pacer series, although he could have rode him while he was hot.

But by your assessment, while he was weening himself off Jason Kidd, he should have played and featured him more even though he hit nothing? Eventually you gotta sit.

Imo, if your "favorite" is your best player, i take no issue....your best scorer for instance is not gonna be benched in a playoff series.