making generalizations about a general "other" is virtually inescapable but is not necessarily so deeply ingrained that it precludes making relationships with that other.

but there is definitely a certain "event horizon" for some people that no amount of contact with the "other" or counseling or therapy can counteract. the brainwashing can go that deep even today, although it is far less today than 50 years ago.

in this day and age, thanks to the efforts of truly great historically significant figures like dr. king, and yes even legislation, we are in a better place as a nation than ever. the wounds are deep, however, and the scars have not faded.

think globally and act locally.

NBC New York and NY1 are reporting an alleged hate crime that took place outside a bar in the New York City borough of Queens early Saturday morning.

Billie and Jacob James-Vogel were leaving Shi restaurant in Long Island City with a gay friend after celebrating Billie's 40th birthday. As they walked down the street, Jacob, who is white, kissed his wife, Billie, who is black, and that's when the trouble began, according to the account given to NBC.

Police Commissioner Ray Kelly said the argument began when one of the men kissed Billie James-Vogel, and words were exchanged between the husband and that man.

Jacob James-Vogel suffered a black eye and a head injury; his wife had a broken toe and other bruises.
Kelly said one person had been arrested, and police were still investigating.
"We're still looking at it as a possible hate crime," Kelly said.
The couple told NY1 that the managers at Shi refused to let the couple back inside to call 911 or seek safety from their attackers. Then one of the attackers came back to the scene pretending to be a cop in an attempt to ride along in the ambulance.

The couple said that while it was all going on, they went back to Shi for help, but were turned away at the door.
Shih Lee, the co-owner of the restaurant, said police were called, and said they couldn't let anyone back in out of fear for their other patrons.

"We couldn't assess the situation," Lee said. "The police had already been called, so we'd rather wait for them to come first."

The James-Vogels said that after the cops left, one of their attackers came back pretending to be a police officer while they were waiting in an ambulance.

"The EMT drivers didn't let him into the ambulance," Jacob James-Vogel said. "They then followed him and called the police."

Thus far, one arrest, of 28-year-old Nikolaos Katsos, has been made. The charges could be upgraded from assault and harrasment to a hate crime. The other attackers are still on the loose.

BRIGGS wrote:

callmened wrote:

Clean wrote:

callmened wrote:- WOW, i'm just catching up with all these posts. this is why i love sports and i tend to stay away from these politically charged issues. people are allowed to feel what they feel; but i can also say that it saddens me to hear/see some people's "true colors"

- Race will always be an issue in America, thats simply what happens when you have a melting pot full of people. Most of the time, we live ok but sometimes bad things happen (some are race related, some arent)

- Is there a double standard? maybe, quite possibly? as long as people understand that several generations of black people were killed and slaughtered here. and it was only a generation ago, that black people started getting REAL rights. so are things ever gonna be equal? i hope so...when then that happens, ill gladly take away the double standard!

- As a black man, I'm not going to talk about how things are against us. Cuz that wont change anything (at least not here in a knicks bball forum). I've had many obstacles in life (some race related, most not). I'm a 6-3 220lbs physician that gets respected by all races. The minute I take off my white coat, things become "different". I'm not gonna complain, thats just the reality

- Lastly, BRIGGS, i put you in the "gotta read his posts" category. i'll always respect your basketball knowledge and passion for the knicks, but i have to admit i'm a lil disappointed and saddened by your views.

I see where your coming from. I personally would not be disappointed by anyone elses posts unless they came out what said they were racist. The way I see it is people comes from all different walks of life and some may have never been exposed or noticed how race relations affect others. For example, a person new to basketball could watch the same game but miss the nuances of the game because they are not used to it. It is for us to help them understand and not be to be disappointed.

Perhaps. no will ever come out and say they are a racist. I dont know, hate or love BRIGGS. i dont know him except for some posts here on the forum and i highly doubt hes a racist or a bad person

were all different and i respect his opinion

its more like the disappointment you hear when a cool guy tells you hes a dallas cowboy fan...its like GEEZ REALLY?!?!

Actually I started this thread as a basic discussion of a serious topic. I should not have engaged the gentleman who put words phrases and ideas from his mouth as mine--I shouldve ignored it. The topic of discussion really was two parts--the unbelievable reality of this young man's words and hate in 2013- I hate 90% of white people and than the same young man went out and killed an unassuming young man walking down the street. What caused a 16 year old man to hate like this? I believe most raciscm that still exists in the US is scant--atleast in my view. This is not 1930--I think anyone can agree on that. So why did this young man have hatred like it was 1930? Secondly if a young white man wrote on his twitter that he hated 90% of all black people and then he and his buddies went out and committed the same crime--we'd hear MUCH more about this than we do now. If a fellow like Al Sharpton is willing to say something the other way around--where is his views now--where are a LOT of peoples views now--because this is quiet and this was one of the worst racial acts of the last 20 years

This may have been your intention but it was poorly reflected in what you wrote. The theme of your opening post was almost entirely centered around the premise of there being a double standard in society/the media with people's outrage/coverage of hate crimes. Here is your post:

One of them said. " 90 of white people are nasty. Hate them". If this was three white people who wrote and acted like this it would've been the racial incident of the decade. Other way around really haven't heard a peep. I think this is what is the basis of much of the racism we have in the country now. A reverse psychology. Whoever did what here. This is one of the worst race crimes in 20 years and I hope people from all races learn and continue to learn from this. This young man had serious hatred for whites at 16 What caused this?

61 of your first 104 words involved in the post reflected this point. When 59% of any text focuses on a particular topic, it sends a strong message to the reader that this is the general point of it. From there, you then seem to infer that the vast majority of racism is perpetuated by Blacks (maybe minorities), which in turn suggests that Blacks (maybe minorities) don't ever have to deal with racism. That since Black people (and possibly other minorities) are no longer being lynched, raped, or overtly discriminated against "like in the 1930s" that there are no social injustices that still linger/exist in society. In other words, "screw your personnel experiences, there is no racism and when there is, it is coming from Blacks/minorities to whites". It reads as being extremely obnoxious, condescending and indifferent/insensitive to anyone that isn't of your ethnic group.

And in spite of all the statistical information provided by misterearl that show Blacks/minorities are disproportionately victims of hate crimes and at least 10 instances of such crimes that went untouched in the media, you continue to persist with your general premise, while never directly engaging misterearl on his points. You're not having a discussion as much as you are continually reiterating your opinions. There is a reason why you are getting the reaction you're getting and it isn't due to some hatred/bias against white people or from us ignoring how terrible this Lane murder is.

NardDogNation wrote:

playa2 wrote:It all started when the white community pushed the black community into the role of 3rd class citizens once they were freed from slavery. Then the black community built a culture upon those unfortunate circumstances that they didn't want and didn't know how to change or COLLECTIVELY rise up from because of the mental slavery that occurred after the physical slavery .

And this is where we are today in 2013.

In this country, wealth...has largely been built by inheritance.

BULLSHIT

this is the country where a peasant from Bosnia can come and become a millionaire, while he has a thick accent which you can't stand to listen to, but it does not matter,

cut the crap, Fredo

Red1976 wrote:

arkrud wrote:

Red1976 wrote:The sadest thing is that people keep killing each other around the world for something that doesn't exist ... There are no human races and no sound basis to classify human beings into "races" (it does not work to put a continuous network of human diversity into discrete categories no matter how hard you try)... sadly stupid ideas, fear of differences, disdain for other cultures or beliefs, and stereotypes are much more stronger than rationality for too many (not thinking of anyone on this forum, just us humans in general)

Racism definitely exists but it is built on non-existing "differences" among arbitrary human regroupings (e.g. Mostly based on skin color because it is easily seen, again a continuous diversity resulting from the sun strength and adaptation to various environnement)

I think we are getting close to the point.
The race is just an excuse for violence.
And violence is the result of fear... about somebody who is different.
The color is something what is on the surface but the real thing we fear is another culture, another way of live, another range of values. How different cultures value the human life, dignity, freedom, etc.?
I am Jewish and I know there are hundreds of millions of people in the world who want to kill me just because of this simple fact.
Not because of my religion or my big nose but because they do not get why people of my culture persist, succeed, and do well for thousand of years despite being killed, torched, and humiliated everywhere. It is scary... so I forgive all of them.
Why white and black people cannot just do same - forgive? Culture...

yes

in 2013 it is rash ignorance to keep putting people into "races", there is enough knowledge of our genome and other facts about human history to put a stop to these old remnants of racial colonialism. But "divide to reign" is a strategy used throughout history, so these old meaningless categories are kept around and are being used by some to justify fear, hate and violence.

Apart from people living in the Caucasus mountains between Europe and Asia, "Caucasian" is a meaningless term invented by Johann Friedrich Blumenbach in the 18th century while visiting the region. He felt in love with the beauty of the girls living there ... This is really puzzling that this terminology is still being used in politics, medicine, everyday life and is based on the sexual preferences of a mad scientist from the past ... basically this is based on pure bullsh**

"Hispanic" as this term is used in the US is also puzzling : does this mean that Spanish people belong both to "Caucasian" and "Hispanic" and like the rest of us, are African by descent ?

this works for every "racial categories" put around, they don't hold against rationale thinking and facts

Some great leaders like Martin Luther King already understood these simple facts 50 years ago while fighting for civil rights. This is actually the anniversary of the "I have a dream" speech. Sadly, the same prejudices he was fighting against and that costs him his life are still very strong in the US and around the world. Sometimes in more subtle ways or hidden, but as dangerous than in the past ...

Well said. You expressed my feelings albeit much more clearly. Until the world is deprogrammed you will continue to have these instances crop up. Maybe crime rate goes down if people of all races are given the same opportunities. A fair chance

arkrud wrote:The crime rate among blacks is higher and this is a fact.
It is not a fault of African Americans who have nothing to do with this but this is a problem for them.
Obviously this situation is a result of how this group was integrated in American society - slavery and segregation.
This resulted in separation from wealth, education, politics, etc.
The process of leveling things off is going on but it is slow.
Caps are just fishing, and they want less work and more stuff to report. So they go for more probable fish.
Same goes for the public - it is easy to go with common stereotypes. And people are lazy (thatch why we have any progress by the way).
I personally know a lot of black people who get over it. When they face this kind of things in their life the other party is the one to get embarrassed because they see educated intelligent self-confident citizens who know their right and can stand for them.
We know that not everything is right in Danish Kingdom but we also know that there are nobody but us to make it right.

Exactly. Those studies are only exposing stereotypes and prejudices not the underlying social and economics issue and why 52% of inmates are black. I agree with everyone that it is a process and a slow one but I am hopeful that one day we will get to a point where The world "race" is only used in reference to a competition of speed. There is absolutely no reason to differentiate between races in 2013

NardDogNation wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:

callmened wrote:

Clean wrote:

callmened wrote:- WOW, i'm just catching up with all these posts. this is why i love sports and i tend to stay away from these politically charged issues. people are allowed to feel what they feel; but i can also say that it saddens me to hear/see some people's "true colors"

- Race will always be an issue in America, thats simply what happens when you have a melting pot full of people. Most of the time, we live ok but sometimes bad things happen (some are race related, some arent)

- Is there a double standard? maybe, quite possibly? as long as people understand that several generations of black people were killed and slaughtered here. and it was only a generation ago, that black people started getting REAL rights. so are things ever gonna be equal? i hope so...when then that happens, ill gladly take away the double standard!

- As a black man, I'm not going to talk about how things are against us. Cuz that wont change anything (at least not here in a knicks bball forum). I've had many obstacles in life (some race related, most not). I'm a 6-3 220lbs physician that gets respected by all races. The minute I take off my white coat, things become "different". I'm not gonna complain, thats just the reality

- Lastly, BRIGGS, i put you in the "gotta read his posts" category. i'll always respect your basketball knowledge and passion for the knicks, but i have to admit i'm a lil disappointed and saddened by your views.

I see where your coming from. I personally would not be disappointed by anyone elses posts unless they came out what said they were racist. The way I see it is people comes from all different walks of life and some may have never been exposed or noticed how race relations affect others. For example, a person new to basketball could watch the same game but miss the nuances of the game because they are not used to it. It is for us to help them understand and not be to be disappointed.

Perhaps. no will ever come out and say they are a racist. I dont know, hate or love BRIGGS. i dont know him except for some posts here on the forum and i highly doubt hes a racist or a bad person

were all different and i respect his opinion

its more like the disappointment you hear when a cool guy tells you hes a dallas cowboy fan...its like GEEZ REALLY?!?!

Actually I started this thread as a basic discussion of a serious topic. I should not have engaged the gentleman who put words phrases and ideas from his mouth as mine--I shouldve ignored it. The topic of discussion really was two parts--the unbelievable reality of this young man's words and hate in 2013- I hate 90% of white people and than the same young man went out and killed an unassuming young man walking down the street. What caused a 16 year old man to hate like this? I believe most raciscm that still exists in the US is scant--atleast in my view. This is not 1930--I think anyone can agree on that. So why did this young man have hatred like it was 1930? Secondly if a young white man wrote on his twitter that he hated 90% of all black people and then he and his buddies went out and committed the same crime--we'd hear MUCH more about this than we do now. If a fellow like Al Sharpton is willing to say something the other way around--where is his views now--where are a LOT of peoples views now--because this is quiet and this was one of the worst racial acts of the last 20 years

This may have been your intention but it was poorly reflected in what you wrote. The theme of your opening post was almost entirely centered around the premise of there being a double standard in society/the media with people's outrage/coverage of hate crimes. Here is your post:

One of them said. " 90 of white people are nasty. Hate them". If this was three white people who wrote and acted like this it would've been the racial incident of the decade. Other way around really haven't heard a peep. I think this is what is the basis of much of the racism we have in the country now. A reverse psychology. Whoever did what here. This is one of the worst race crimes in 20 years and I hope people from all races learn and continue to learn from this. This young man had serious hatred for whites at 16 What caused this?

61 of your first 104 words involved in the post reflected this point. When 59% of any text focuses on a particular topic, it sends a strong message to the reader that this is the general point of it. From there, you then seem to infer that the vast majority of racism is perpetuated by Blacks (maybe minorities), which in turn suggests that Blacks (maybe minorities) don't ever have to deal with racism. That since Black people (and possibly other minorities) are no longer being lynched, raped, or overtly discriminated against "like in the 1930s" that there are no social injustices that still linger/exist in society. In other words, "screw your personnel experiences, there is no racism and when there is, it is coming from Blacks/minorities to whites". It reads as being extremely obnoxious, condescending and indifferent/insensitive to anyone that isn't of your ethnic group.

And in spite of all the statistical information provided by misterearl that show Blacks/minorities are disproportionately victims of hate crimes and at least 10 instances of such crimes that went untouched in the media, you continue to persist with your general premise, while never directly engaging misterearl on his points. You're not having a discussion as much as you are continually reiterating your opinions. There is a reason why you are getting the reaction you're getting and it isn't due to some hatred/bias against white people or from us ignoring how terrible this Lane murder is.

You see I feel I can give a reasonable opinion on this matter. As I do with the Knicks despite being called a hater or homer at times I try to give an honest assessment.

I grew up as a white kid in a predominantly Black and Hispanic community in Elizabeth, NJ. I had friends of all "races" but I kinda understand what Briggs is saying albeit he probably didn't do the best job of expressing his intentions. Maybe earl is right to an extent. I don't know Briggs is speaking from his own bubble or he has the grounds to comment on the topic of racism. By the way, I wonder if Fox News and the rest of mainstream media have the right to comment as well.

Any I experienced racism in Elizabeth. Parents saying to their kids what are you doing with that white boy. I Had a rock thrown at my window as my dad drove through a part of town known for its gang activity and shootings because they were blocking a narrow street and we disrupted them by driving through.

Then We moved to a predominately white suburban neighborhood where I heard plenty of racist comments from certain sheltered individuals.

Overall have we come a long way? Absolutely. It's an extremely slow process but maybe one day as I said earlier the word "race" will only be used to describe a completion of speed

FACT: People murder other people.
FACT: People involved in murders often have differing skin colors.
FACT: Slavery is both an abomination and a fact of human existence.
FACT: The founders of this country were not bastions of capitalism, they were goofy religious folks who believed firmly in family values. If you actually bother to research it, you'll see that Pilgrims were the only group in the America's to actually execute one of their own on the basis of testimony from Native Americans.

Racism isn't based on skin color, it's a worldview that's based on fear and ignorance. No matter your worldview of choice regarding origins of life, we're all descended from the same color.

The answer isn't in ignoring differences, as if that will make worldviews change. It's in accepting the intrinsic worth of every human life, no matter the color. But how do you do that, if there's nothing trancendent to base it on?

Unfortunately, this current culture we live in has spent the last 60 or so years convincing everyone that we are animals, and that humans have no trancendent, intrinsic worth. Whales? Spotted owls? Harp seals? Dolphins? Polar bears? Kittens, puppies? All those have worth, for some unknown, mystical reason. Humans are earth-wasting, environmental viruses poisoning the planet with our pollutants, chain saws and carbon hoof prints.

Decades are spent teaching kids that we are nothing but super-evolved chimps, and then get all huffy, nasty and spend time pointing fingers when people act like animals and spout the same, hate-filled rhetoric that that worldview has as it's end product.

Nietsche said values are for weak, herd-mentality folks. You don't get a dead God and not get all the rest of the baggage that happens to go with it.

Two more victims of the two bloodiest centuries in history. Hate crimes, indeed.

Tell me again, why aren't all crimes hate crimes?