Osiris wrote:

Jmpasq wrote:

blkexec wrote:JR Smith vs THJ

JR is a gunner
is a black hole on offense
undersized SF
hit's a 3...then fouls someone behind the 3 on the other end
JR should not be a second option.
JR's stock is high, so he will command more dollars.
JR takes more bad shots than good.

THJ is a rookie, just happy to be drafted.
THJ is already more mature than JR.
THJ is cheap
Doesn't need to hold the ball to score.
He's a system guy vs JR smith is a pickup street ball guy
THJ takes more good shots than bad.

THJ is not affraid of the spot light or taking big shots.

I know THJ is just a rookie, and worst case, he may not even make the team. JR is a proven talent. I know....I know. I'm a fan just like everybody else. But as far as building a team, with a certain culture in mind, JR is not a good fit.

With all that, I rather have THJ right now, than JR Smith.....Pickup a volume scorer from either free agency or the D league, if we need more veteran scoring.
There are plenty of players that know how to put the ball in the basket. They are easy to find. It's the players to do both offense and defense, while not dominating the ball is hard to find.

Use the JR money to help pay for Copeland, THJ,Leslie and another 1 yr contract Free Agent....

Bottom line is the team is worse with Hardaway Jr instead of JR by a large margin.

Tim is replacing JKid not JR! If the Knicks resign JR,he still comes off the bench! Three da Hardaway will start.

The only way THJ is replacing J Kidd is a body for a body. The jury is still out on the new kid. He has to be able to rebound, advance the ball and dish it to be in the same league with Kidd. His steals and defense would have to be stellar also. These are all the things Kidd brought with him when he came into the league. His shot wasn't there, but he could drive to the hole and hit the shot or dish for the assist. If THJ's early years are ANYTHING like Kidd's, I would be ecstatic.

Sangfroid wrote:

Osiris wrote:

Jmpasq wrote:

blkexec wrote:JR Smith vs THJ

JR is a gunner
is a black hole on offense
undersized SF
hit's a 3...then fouls someone behind the 3 on the other end
JR should not be a second option.
JR's stock is high, so he will command more dollars.
JR takes more bad shots than good.

THJ is a rookie, just happy to be drafted.
THJ is already more mature than JR.
THJ is cheap
Doesn't need to hold the ball to score.
He's a system guy vs JR smith is a pickup street ball guy
THJ takes more good shots than bad.

THJ is not affraid of the spot light or taking big shots.

I know THJ is just a rookie, and worst case, he may not even make the team. JR is a proven talent. I know....I know. I'm a fan just like everybody else. But as far as building a team, with a certain culture in mind, JR is not a good fit.

With all that, I rather have THJ right now, than JR Smith.....Pickup a volume scorer from either free agency or the D league, if we need more veteran scoring.
There are plenty of players that know how to put the ball in the basket. They are easy to find. It's the players to do both offense and defense, while not dominating the ball is hard to find.

Use the JR money to help pay for Copeland, THJ,Leslie and another 1 yr contract Free Agent....

Bottom line is the team is worse with Hardaway Jr instead of JR by a large margin.

Tim is replacing JKid not JR! If the Knicks resign JR,he still comes off the bench! Three da Hardaway will start.

The only way THJ is replacing J Kidd is a body for a body. The jury is still out on the new kid. He has to be able to rebound, advance the ball and dish it to be in the same league with Kidd. His ste,als and defense would have to be stellar also. These are all the things Kidd brought with him when he came into the league. His shot wasn't there, but he could drive to the hole and hit the shot or dish for the assist. If THJ's early years are ANYTHING like Kidd's, I would be ecstatic.

Kidd, stellar D? He had to be rushed to the burn unit after multiple games last season! I believe 1000% Tim will match or exceed JKidds production next season!

To those who think he can't improve his handle and drive more successfully I think they really don't know that. JR, Shump and Wilson Chandler came into the league with similar issues. JR only this year started to really drive more and Shump is still learning how to finish. W. Chandler did indeed get better at driving. I think T Jr. is actually ahead of all of those guys already but simply hasn't used his skills as much. Why do we hate on our own picks and just assume others are better? Some think this kid lacks athletic ability and agility well:

T Jr.       sprint = 3.25 Vert = 37.5 Agility = 10.68 Bench = 16
Ricky Ledo  sprint = 3.32 Vert = 33.5 Agility = 10.72 Bench = 4
A. Crabbe   sprint = 3.40 Vert = 36.0 Agility = 11.25 Bench = 9
Otto Porter sprint = 3.32 Vert = 36.0 Agility = 10.67 Bench = 10

It's really going to be up to Woody to put the kid in the right situations and perhaps finally run more screens, curls and Ray Allen style baseline runs to the corners. This kid can move unlike Novak and Cope. Go check T Jr.'s Agility and sprint and you'd see he's quick and agile. It's often not about the player being limited but rather how the coach employs the player. ie Novak needed more picks set for him as he once got under MDA.

Osiris wrote:

Sangfroid wrote:

Osiris wrote:

Jmpasq wrote:

blkexec wrote:JR Smith vs THJ

JR is a gunner
is a black hole on offense
undersized SF
hit's a 3...then fouls someone behind the 3 on the other end
JR should not be a second option.
JR's stock is high, so he will command more dollars.
JR takes more bad shots than good.

THJ is a rookie, just happy to be drafted.
THJ is already more mature than JR.
THJ is cheap
Doesn't need to hold the ball to score.
He's a system guy vs JR smith is a pickup street ball guy
THJ takes more good shots than bad.

THJ is not affraid of the spot light or taking big shots.

I know THJ is just a rookie, and worst case, he may not even make the team. JR is a proven talent. I know....I know. I'm a fan just like everybody else. But as far as building a team, with a certain culture in mind, JR is not a good fit.

With all that, I rather have THJ right now, than JR Smith.....Pickup a volume scorer from either free agency or the D league, if we need more veteran scoring.
There are plenty of players that know how to put the ball in the basket. They are easy to find. It's the players to do both offense and defense, while not dominating the ball is hard to find.

Use the JR money to help pay for Copeland, THJ,Leslie and another 1 yr contract Free Agent....

Bottom line is the team is worse with Hardaway Jr instead of JR by a large margin.

Tim is replacing JKid not JR! If the Knicks resign JR,he still comes off the bench! Three da Hardaway will start.

The only way THJ is replacing J Kidd is a body for a body. The jury is still out on the new kid. He has to be able to rebound, advance the ball and dish it to be in the same league with Kidd. His ste,als and defense would have to be stellar also. These are all the things Kidd brought with him when he came into the league. His shot wasn't there, but he could drive to the hole and hit the shot or dish for the assist. If THJ's early years are ANYTHING like Kidd's, I would be ecstatic.

Kidd, stellar D? He had to be rushed to the burn unit after multiple games last season! I believe 1000% Tim will match or exceed JKidds production next season!

I can exceed JKidds production next season.....thats not an accomplishment. But will he replace his leadership. Thats where the hole is, once Kidd left.

B+ #24 [Player: Tim Hardaway Jr.] Will Tim Hardaway continue to haunt the Knicks even in retirement? Or does he owe them one? Junior gives the Knicks a range shooting threat, while also displaying aptitude as a one-on-one off-the-dribble creator. He’s a streaky scorer with the talent to singlehandedly take over a game. One can only hope the spirit of competition will result in more basket attacking and less jumper settling. Hardaway is a solid athlete with excellent size for the position.

nixluva wrote:I really do have to laugh at the many negative opinions of T Jr. He is not some dude that has no upside. That is simply the opinion of analysts who really can't guarantee what is in the heart of a player. IMO T Jr. hasn't come close to reaching his full potential and being in this situation where his role is much clearer. That Michigan offense was a mess. In NY T Jr. will be able to recognize where he fits in and refine his role.

To those who think he can't improve his handle and drive more successfully I think they really don't know that. JR, Shump and Wilson Chandler came into the league with similar issues. JR only this year started to really drive more and Shump is still learning how to finish. W. Chandler did indeed get better at driving. I think T Jr. is actually ahead of all of those guys already but simply hasn't used his skills as much. Why do we hate on our own picks and just assume others are better? Some think this kid lacks athletic ability and agility well:

T Jr.       sprint = 3.25 Vert = 37.5 Agility = 10.68 Bench = 16
Ricky Ledo  sprint = 3.32 Vert = 33.5 Agility = 10.72 Bench = 4
A. Crabbe   sprint = 3.40 Vert = 36.0 Agility = 11.25 Bench = 9
Otto Porter sprint = 3.32 Vert = 36.0 Agility = 10.67 Bench = 10

It's really going to be up to Woody to put the kid in the right situations and perhaps finally run more screens, curls and Ray Allen style baseline runs to the corners. This kid can move unlike Novak and Cope. Go check T Jr.'s Agility and sprint and you'd see he's quick and agile. It's often not about the player being limited but rather how the coach employs the player. ie Novak needed more picks set for him as he once got under MDA.

Dude JR Smith and Shumpert were superior ball handlers compared to Hardaway.

JR Smith came out of highschool. Stop making stuff up man.

AnubisADL wrote:

nixluva wrote:I really do have to laugh at the many negative opinions of T Jr. He is not some dude that has no upside. That is simply the opinion of analysts who really can't guarantee what is in the heart of a player. IMO T Jr. hasn't come close to reaching his full potential and being in this situation where his role is much clearer. That Michigan offense was a mess. In NY T Jr. will be able to recognize where he fits in and refine his role.

To those who think he can't improve his handle and drive more successfully I think they really don't know that. JR, Shump and Wilson Chandler came into the league with similar issues. JR only this year started to really drive more and Shump is still learning how to finish. W. Chandler did indeed get better at driving. I think T Jr. is actually ahead of all of those guys already but simply hasn't used his skills as much. Why do we hate on our own picks and just assume others are better? Some think this kid lacks athletic ability and agility well:

T Jr.       sprint = 3.25 Vert = 37.5 Agility = 10.68 Bench = 16
Ricky Ledo  sprint = 3.32 Vert = 33.5 Agility = 10.72 Bench = 4
A. Crabbe   sprint = 3.40 Vert = 36.0 Agility = 11.25 Bench = 9
Otto Porter sprint = 3.32 Vert = 36.0 Agility = 10.67 Bench = 10

It's really going to be up to Woody to put the kid in the right situations and perhaps finally run more screens, curls and Ray Allen style baseline runs to the corners. This kid can move unlike Novak and Cope. Go check T Jr.'s Agility and sprint and you'd see he's quick and agile. It's often not about the player being limited but rather how the coach employs the player. ie Novak needed more picks set for him as he once got under MDA.

Dude JR Smith and Shumpert were superior ball handlers compared to Hardaway.

JR Smith came out of highschool. Stop making stuff up man.

Jr Smith doesn't have great handles. They're good and its something he had to work on. He came in as a catch and shoot player with a lot of potential. I think thats what he needs to go back to doing. He should not be a primary ball handler He needs to be run off screens to create separation and then attack/shoot/pass.

Hardaway may not be as good of a ball handler but I think he is ok and will get better. He just needs enough to escape a close out and attack on the occasional side PnR. Also, looking at some pre-draft video of TH JR, he looks like he changed his shooting form and is not jumping as high on his spot ups. That was something Hopla had Shump do too. Sometimes numbers do not tell the whole story. Look at leonard and Shump for examples.

yellowboy90 wrote:

AnubisADL wrote:

nixluva wrote:I really do have to laugh at the many negative opinions of T Jr. He is not some dude that has no upside. That is simply the opinion of analysts who really can't guarantee what is in the heart of a player. IMO T Jr. hasn't come close to reaching his full potential and being in this situation where his role is much clearer. That Michigan offense was a mess. In NY T Jr. will be able to recognize where he fits in and refine his role.

To those who think he can't improve his handle and drive more successfully I think they really don't know that. JR, Shump and Wilson Chandler came into the league with similar issues. JR only this year started to really drive more and Shump is still learning how to finish. W. Chandler did indeed get better at driving. I think T Jr. is actually ahead of all of those guys already but simply hasn't used his skills as much. Why do we hate on our own picks and just assume others are better? Some think this kid lacks athletic ability and agility well:

T Jr.       sprint = 3.25 Vert = 37.5 Agility = 10.68 Bench = 16
Ricky Ledo  sprint = 3.32 Vert = 33.5 Agility = 10.72 Bench = 4
A. Crabbe   sprint = 3.40 Vert = 36.0 Agility = 11.25 Bench = 9
Otto Porter sprint = 3.32 Vert = 36.0 Agility = 10.67 Bench = 10

It's really going to be up to Woody to put the kid in the right situations and perhaps finally run more screens, curls and Ray Allen style baseline runs to the corners. This kid can move unlike Novak and Cope. Go check T Jr.'s Agility and sprint and you'd see he's quick and agile. It's often not about the player being limited but rather how the coach employs the player. ie Novak needed more picks set for him as he once got under MDA.

Dude JR Smith and Shumpert were superior ball handlers compared to Hardaway.

JR Smith came out of highschool. Stop making stuff up man.

Jr Smith doesn't have great handles. They're good and its something he had to work on. He came in as a catch and shoot player with a lot of potential. I think thats what he needs to go back to doing. He should not be a primary ball handler He needs to be run off screens to create separation and then attack/shoot/pass.

Hardaway may not be as good of a ball handler but I think he is ok and will get better. He just needs enough to escape a close out and attack on the occasional side PnR. Also, looking at some pre-draft video of TH JR, he looks like he changed his shooting form and is not jumping as high on his spot ups. That was something Hopla had Shump do too. Sometimes numbers do not tell the whole story. Look at leonard and Shump for examples.

Thank you yellowboy90! I think there's a lot of revisionist history going on. JR has not been this guy that have been breaking people down and attacking the basket on a regular basis during his career. Woody finally got him to do it later in this season and once he did it started to bear fruit. Still he's not that great at it. He gets over more on his strength than simply blowing by guys.

Also to AnubisADL put this in your pipe and smoke it:

JR Smith    sprint = 3.21 vert = 35.5 Agility = 10.93 bench = 5
T Jr.       sprint = 3.25 Vert = 37.5 Agility = 10.68 Bench = 16

Now of course this was back when Smith was a kid, but you get the idea that both players are fairly athletic, but T Jr. compares very well to JR. Only difference is that he is coming in with great college experience. JR is actually just a touch taller, heavier, 3" longer arms and JR is a bit less agile, but they are very similar. We can't get too carried away with the fact that we're looking at JR after years of NBA experience and personal growth, so of course he is going to seem like the better player. However, it's not too far fetched to foresee T Jr. improving on his game and perhaps becoming a better, more dependable player, with a better head on his shoulders.

nixluva wrote:Thank you yellowboy90! I think there's a lot of revisionist history going on. JR has not been this guy that have been breaking people down and attacking the basket on a regular basis during his career. Woody finally got him to do it later in this season and once he did it started to bear fruit. Still he's not that great at it. He gets over more on his strength than simply blowing by guys.

Also to AnubisADL put this in your pipe and smoke it:

JR Smith    sprint = 3.21 vert = 35.5 Agility = 10.93 bench = 5
T Jr.       sprint = 3.25 Vert = 37.5 Agility = 10.68 Bench = 16

Now of course this was back when Smith was a kid, but you get the idea that both players are fairly athletic, but T Jr. compares very well to JR. Only difference is that he is coming in with great college experience. JR is actually just a touch taller, heavier, 3" longer arms and JR is a bit less agile, but they are very similar. We can't get too carried away with the fact that we're looking at JR after years of NBA experience and personal growth, so of course he is going to seem like the better player. However, it's not too far fetched to foresee T Jr. improving on his game and perhaps becoming a better, more dependable player, with a better head on his shoulders.

Comparing a high schoolers measurements to the dude who spent 3 years in college.

Hardaway hopes to be as good as Smith was in New Orleans. JR Smith's problem is he is a fool.

AnubisADL wrote:

nixluva wrote:Thank you yellowboy90! I think there's a lot of revisionist history going on. JR has not been this guy that have been breaking people down and attacking the basket on a regular basis during his career. Woody finally got him to do it later in this season and once he did it started to bear fruit. Still he's not that great at it. He gets over more on his strength than simply blowing by guys.

Also to AnubisADL put this in your pipe and smoke it:

JR Smith    sprint = 3.21 vert = 35.5 Agility = 10.93 bench = 5
T Jr.       sprint = 3.25 Vert = 37.5 Agility = 10.68 Bench = 16

Now of course this was back when Smith was a kid, but you get the idea that both players are fairly athletic, but T Jr. compares very well to JR. Only difference is that he is coming in with great college experience. JR is actually just a touch taller, heavier, 3" longer arms and JR is a bit less agile, but they are very similar. We can't get too carried away with the fact that we're looking at JR after years of NBA experience and personal growth, so of course he is going to seem like the better player. However, it's not too far fetched to foresee T Jr. improving on his game and perhaps becoming a better, more dependable player, with a better head on his shoulders.

Comparing a high schoolers measurements to the dude who spent 3 years in college.

Hardaway hopes to be as good as Smith was in New Orleans. JR Smith's problem is he is a fool.

Why not compare T Jr to JR when he was 5
sprint 10.3 vert =10 agility = 30 bench = 0

as you can see TJr is far more athletic than JR.

blkexec wrote:

nykshaknbake wrote:

blkexec wrote:

nykshaknbake wrote:My problem with the pick is that it should have been to greatest need or a player with a high ceiling. Instead we got someone at a potentially crowded spot at a relatively easy to fill position, who may only marginally contribute with out a pg to get him the ball. Can't create his own shot and not a good pull up shooter so probably not going to be effective in the pnr. Likely we'll end up trading him along with something else to another team where he'll play better.

If you are building a team around Melo, who would you rather have JR Smith or Hardaway Jr?

JR Smith couldn't last a full season without going back to his old ways on and off the court. Jr is just learning how to mature, plus he needs to over dribble to score. If JR was a catch and shoot player, with more maturity, I would say lets keep him. But what if you can find a younger more mature version of JR, at a cheaper rate? Tim Hardaway Jr......

THJ has a ways to go before you can say he's of the same calibur as JR as much of a headcase that he is. Even tools wise he doesn't have near the handle or the strength of JR. Isn't projected to be an above average defender like JR is. THJ right now is close to JR as JR is to Lebron James.

I'm not comparing just talent. I'm looking at the entire JR package. And JR's off the court issues over his career, inconsistent performance, and other stuff are the negatives. Factor in his negatives and positives, and you will see JR can actually hurt more than help.

THJ is starting from a clean plate, without the perceived baggage. So yes, I would rather take a young SG with potential to be a scorer like JR, but without the off the court maturity issues. To me, it's a wash. Especially when you also factor in how much you have to pay JR Smith compared to THJ.

I'm not sure you can say JR is a negative impact on the team. He'd be the only 6th man of the year to achieve that in NBA history. We don't even know if THJ will be an average player let alone a good starter.