Ira wrote:Mark Cuban must feel vindicated.

Bonn1997 wrote:

Ira wrote:Mark Cuban must feel vindicated.

A vindicated owner running a lottery team. I'm sure that's what he and the fans wanted.

Lol +1

RonRon wrote:Portland currently owns 10th pick, 39th, 40th, 45th pick in this summer draft
If Melo/JR is included in the draft, I would expect another future 1st round pick and maybe even 2-3 future 2nd rounder as well

Grunwald isn't trading Melo man. Especially not after dropping 39 in a closeout game.

Ira wrote:I guess you're right. Some fans want a team that makes the playoffs and don't truly contend.

Bonn1997 wrote:

RonRon wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

RonRon wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

RonRon wrote:

IronWillGiroud wrote:

RonRon wrote:I think only way we can trade Chandler for Bledsoe and Jordan is

IF

we use our 2nd year non guaranteed contracts to absorb Caron Butler's one year expiring deal
And I think they will still need us to include either Iman Shumpert or a draft pick *likely 1st rounder*

no thanks on that,

jordan has bad hands and will not improve any more

I don't think it will be worth it either, I am just saying that I cannot see Clippers trading for Chandler and losing Bledsoe

I would much rather try to trade Chandler to a team like Portland for a trade exemption and a bunch of 2nd round picks
In fact I would do a deal after, even trade him with Melo and JR, for their 1st round picks, future picks 1st and 2nd round picks, and players as throw ins to add up salary like Wesley Mathews and Hickson to a 7m deal per year at a sign and trade

Collect as many assets as we can and cap friendly deals, while waiting for 2015 FA pool, as we develop high/risk reward 2nd rounders, with solid drafts in these next 2 years

That would make sense only if we were doing a complete rebuild, including trading Melo. Otherwise, there's no point in a major downgrade in the roster until 2015. Hibbert put up about 15 PPG. Take Chandler off the team and get some 2nd round picks, and Hibbert will dominate us much worse.

Thing is we are risking losing Melo for nothing with his ability to opt out after next season and sign with another team, as the entire league with the East continues to all getting better/healthy next season

I think trading our starting C for a bunch of 2nd round picks dramatically increases the odds that Melo will opt out and leave.

Do you really think Chandler's production is worth more than a salary exemption and a bunch of young talents?

Yes, absolutely. Do you really think the year would have gone better if we had replaced Tyson with a few 2nd round picks? My guess is two things would have happened: a) we'd have a much lower 1st round playoff seed (maybe even facing Indiana in the 1st round instead of the 2nd), and b) we would have either done the same or worse in the playoffs.

I agree, this whole Tyson bashing is nuts. The MElo crowd is heavy on it so they can make excuses for their boy-crush. (Not suggesting RonRon is in that crowd, I know he is not). IF we trade Melo now we need to get back value - I would take Kyrie Irving plus Varejao for Melo+Chandler. Or somehow get rid of STATs contract by trading Melo. Having said that I don't think Melo will go anywhere for a ring - he seems fixated on one thing only.

loweyecue wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

RonRon wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

RonRon wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

RonRon wrote:

IronWillGiroud wrote:

RonRon wrote:I think only way we can trade Chandler for Bledsoe and Jordan is

IF

we use our 2nd year non guaranteed contracts to absorb Caron Butler's one year expiring deal
And I think they will still need us to include either Iman Shumpert or a draft pick *likely 1st rounder*

no thanks on that,

jordan has bad hands and will not improve any more

I don't think it will be worth it either, I am just saying that I cannot see Clippers trading for Chandler and losing Bledsoe

I would much rather try to trade Chandler to a team like Portland for a trade exemption and a bunch of 2nd round picks
In fact I would do a deal after, even trade him with Melo and JR, for their 1st round picks, future picks 1st and 2nd round picks, and players as throw ins to add up salary like Wesley Mathews and Hickson to a 7m deal per year at a sign and trade

Collect as many assets as we can and cap friendly deals, while waiting for 2015 FA pool, as we develop high/risk reward 2nd rounders, with solid drafts in these next 2 years

That would make sense only if we were doing a complete rebuild, including trading Melo. Otherwise, there's no point in a major downgrade in the roster until 2015. Hibbert put up about 15 PPG. Take Chandler off the team and get some 2nd round picks, and Hibbert will dominate us much worse.

Thing is we are risking losing Melo for nothing with his ability to opt out after next season and sign with another team, as the entire league with the East continues to all getting better/healthy next season

I think trading our starting C for a bunch of 2nd round picks dramatically increases the odds that Melo will opt out and leave.

Do you really think Chandler's production is worth more than a salary exemption and a bunch of young talents?

Yes, absolutely. Do you really think the year would have gone better if we had replaced Tyson with a few 2nd round picks? My guess is two things would have happened: a) we'd have a much lower 1st round playoff seed (maybe even facing Indiana in the 1st round instead of the 2nd), and b) we would have either done the same or worse in the playoffs.

I agree, this whole Tyson bashing is nuts. The MElo crowd is heavy on it so they can make excuses for their boy-crush. (Not suggesting RonRon is in that crowd, I know he is not). IF we trade Melo now we need to get back value - I would take Kyrie Irving plus Varejao for Melo+Chandler. Or somehow get rid of STATs contract by trading Melo. Having said that I don't think Melo will go anywhere for a ring - he seems fixated on one thing only.

The Chandler trade talk exists because he's disappeared in the playoffs two years in a row (and this year he was total dog meat against Hibbert and that cost the Knicks the series) and because he's the only asset the Knicks have. I'm not saying the Knicks don't have other problems, but Tyson is the guy who you don't expect to disappear like that.

The Clippers will come up as a trade partner because Bledose is a potential all-star at a position of need and I'd make the trade involving Chandler, non-guaranteed 2nd year guys and (basically Camby and White) and either of Shumpert/Player at 24 and take back Jordan, Bledsoe and Butler. Making that deal without Shumpert solves the starting PG problem and adds a ton of athleticism and youth to the lineup, which looks approximately like this...

PG: Bledsoe
SG: Shumpert
SF: Anthony
PF: STAT
C: Jordan

Then you'd have JR Smith, Felton, Butler, and Pablo/Kidd/Copeland as 5-11. From there you could flip Butler for a starting caliber PF and/or use the 3 million on someone. If you have to give up Shumpert, Smith starts at SG but he's the 4th optioin in the lineup and Felton off the bench as a combo guard isn't too bad.

Why does Cleveland move Varejao and Kyrie Irving for Melo + Chandler when Cleveland has control of Irving for another 6 years? He gets a team option plus a qualifying offer that Cleveland raises to the RFA max. Getting equal value for Melo is impossible, just like with every other trade that happens for a superstar. You just don't get equal value and you're better off letting the guy walk for cap space instead of trading for worse players with bad contracts.

I'd actually support moving Melo and Stat together, Melo being the price for dumping STAT's deal, but I also don't think that's realistic.

VCoug wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

VCoug wrote:

Vmart wrote:

VCoug wrote:

Caseloads wrote:can we trade chandler to sac for crazy man child demarcus cuzzins

can we trade chandler to clips for deandre and bledsoe

No way, Cousins is way too talented to give up on this soon and Tyson adds nothing to a terrible team like Sacramento.

The most logical destination for a Tyson trade would be to a good team looking to upgrade center to put them over the top. Also, any Tyson trade needs to have a center coming back to us. Around the trade deadline I thought LAC, GS, and OKC were the best fits in terms of fit and need but I don't think that's the case anymore; GS is not trading Bogut after the postseason he just had and I want nothing to do with Perkins so both those teams are out. Looking around the league today I think the most likely trade partners are LAC, for DeAndre and Bledsoe, or Denver for a package involving Javale McGee.

My big hope this offseason is that we can upgrade our shaky, inconsistent backcourt. We should be willing to take a slight downgrade at center for an upgrade at guard. And I believe Tyson still has plenty of value around the league; he was voted into the AllStar game by the coaches and then All-Defensive 1st team by those same coaches.

Knicks need a PF too can't have Melo being out of position.

I don't think he is out of position at PF. Melo just had maybe the best individual season of his career and we had our best season in over a decade with him playing PF. We also consistently looked much better with him at PF than with a traditional lineup of two bigs and Melo at SF. Even this series, where going small should have been a great disadvantage, when we played a traditional lineup with Tyson at C, Kenyon at PF, and Melo at SF we looked absolutely terrible and we got outrebounded by 8 in that quarter.

Three of the four remaining teams in the playoffs start two brutish big men; the 4th team that doesn't has LeBron who is the great equalizer in the NBA. We might need to reconsider our smallball lineup moving forward especially since these teams are going to be around for a while.

True but with two caveats. In the West, GS gave everything SA could handle and really should have won the first 2 games in SA by playing small. If they had played a little better/smarter they could easily be in the WCF right now. OKC lost their 2nd best player to a knee injury and they should be playing small more often. Unfortunately for them, their coach kind of sucks and needs to be replaced.

In our case, I've been saying since last season that I thought we're a better team with Melo at the 4. He needs a defensive/rebounding 5 to cover up his deficiencies, which Tyson should be able to do but he got sick and had a neck injury which severely limited him; a capable PG to run the offense and hit open 3s; and two more 3-point shooters, at least one who's a defensive stopper to throw on the other team's best wing and another who's good at and knows when to slash to the basket for passes from Melo. We're missing the other 3 guys who can do that consistently.

The other thing I'll say about Melo at the 4 is that he needs to put in more work in the offseason. I get the impression that he doesn't put the same work in that guys like Lebron and Kobe. One thing is that he's probably not in as good shape as he could be. Getting in better shape should allow him to miss fewer games during the season and, more importantly, he'd be better able to absorb contact and finish at the rim. If you look at Melo's career he's been average to below average in the paint and at the basket. Him getting in better shape should improve those numbers and improve the team.

Golden State has two of the best shooters to ever grace the game of basketball who had seen their best games during each of the two games they did win. There is no chance the Knicks are able to replicate that.

For all the hype Westbrook gets, I honestly don't think he makes a difference for that team because for as many awesome plays he makes, he has an equal number of bone-headed plays that are hidden behind an impressive stat line. Moving forward, they'd be better served bringing in a better ball distributor because they are us on steroids; heavy isolation without the same number/proficiency of shooters.

And there is no doubt that Melo is better at the 4, which in turn makes us a better team. Moving forward, we need to figure out how best to compensate for the lack of brute in our smallball lineup especially with Chandler's defensive prowess a thing of the past. As much as Chandler was really banged up in the playoffs, I can't help but feel that the wear and tear of a 12 season pro career is catching up to him. Given the trajectory of high school big men not named Kevin Garnett, as well as Chandler's health (or lack thereof), he is due for a noteworthy regression, which we can't allow to happen with him under contract. We need to trade him ASAP. Unfortunately, this eventuality does not make the small ball lineup feasible anymore.

loweyecue wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

RonRon wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

RonRon wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

RonRon wrote:

IronWillGiroud wrote:

RonRon wrote:I think only way we can trade Chandler for Bledsoe and Jordan is

IF

we use our 2nd year non guaranteed contracts to absorb Caron Butler's one year expiring deal
And I think they will still need us to include either Iman Shumpert or a draft pick *likely 1st rounder*

no thanks on that,

jordan has bad hands and will not improve any more

I don't think it will be worth it either, I am just saying that I cannot see Clippers trading for Chandler and losing Bledsoe

I would much rather try to trade Chandler to a team like Portland for a trade exemption and a bunch of 2nd round picks
In fact I would do a deal after, even trade him with Melo and JR, for their 1st round picks, future picks 1st and 2nd round picks, and players as throw ins to add up salary like Wesley Mathews and Hickson to a 7m deal per year at a sign and trade

Collect as many assets as we can and cap friendly deals, while waiting for 2015 FA pool, as we develop high/risk reward 2nd rounders, with solid drafts in these next 2 years

That would make sense only if we were doing a complete rebuild, including trading Melo. Otherwise, there's no point in a major downgrade in the roster until 2015. Hibbert put up about 15 PPG. Take Chandler off the team and get some 2nd round picks, and Hibbert will dominate us much worse.

Thing is we are risking losing Melo for nothing with his ability to opt out after next season and sign with another team, as the entire league with the East continues to all getting better/healthy next season

I think trading our starting C for a bunch of 2nd round picks dramatically increases the odds that Melo will opt out and leave.

Do you really think Chandler's production is worth more than a salary exemption and a bunch of young talents?

Yes, absolutely. Do you really think the year would have gone better if we had replaced Tyson with a few 2nd round picks? My guess is two things would have happened: a) we'd have a much lower 1st round playoff seed (maybe even facing Indiana in the 1st round instead of the 2nd), and b) we would have either done the same or worse in the playoffs.

I agree, this whole Tyson bashing is nuts. The MElo crowd is heavy on it so they can make excuses for their boy-crush. (Not suggesting RonRon is in that crowd, I know he is not). IF we trade Melo now we need to get back value - I would take Kyrie Irving plus Varejao for Melo+Chandler. Or somehow get rid of STATs contract by trading Melo. Having said that I don't think Melo will go anywhere for a ring - he seems fixated on one thing only.

As I said in another post, Chandler is about due for a regression if his career follows the logical progression of a big man drafted out of high school (or close to it) that is not named Kevin Garnett (see Jermaine O'neal, Lamar Odom, etc). I think its safer to move his contract at this point than to sit around and wait for that ticking timebomb to go off.

On to a different note, I think anyone of us would trade Carmelo for essentially Kyrie Irving but the Cavs obviously won't do that. Why continue to suck and pay a guy tens of millions of dollars more?

RonRon wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

RonRon wrote:Portland currently owns 10th pick, 39th, 40th, 45th pick in this summer draft
If Melo/JR is included in the draft, I would expect another future 1st round pick and maybe even 2-3 future 2nd rounder as well

Why would we trade one of the best players in the league for draft picks in one of the weakest drafts, ever? It just seems like a ridiculous notion if you actually like the Knicks.

because if he opts out before 2015, and leaves for NOTHING, you get NOTHING, while the East continues to get stronger and better every year, we are very limited on our moves with the new CBA

and with Tyson Chandler, Amare, Melo, eating up the entire salary cap themselves the next 3 years
We had a best shot this year in contending, while we getting older, and are looking at the inability to even keep the players we have on the roster
With Rose, Rhondo, Granger, Wall, and whoever else improving, we are looking at regressing back instead of improving

If we couldn't do it this year, with all these injuries to these teams, WITHOUT even going to ECF, we just loss our best shot, and in 2014 summer, when Melo says "I have to do what is best for my career to contend for a ring when he opts out"

You say??

Bro, he's not leaving NY. And if he leaves NY in 2015, so what? We'll have no one but Novak and the 24th pick in this draft under contract, which will give us about $65-$70 million in cap space. The free agents of that draft class include Kyrie Irving, Kevin Love, Marc Gasol, Paul George and Rajon Rondo, which gives us the opportunity to add 3 allstars. Hell, I'd want A 30 year old Melo to leave if this happened.

NardDogNation wrote:

RonRon wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

RonRon wrote:Portland currently owns 10th pick, 39th, 40th, 45th pick in this summer draft
If Melo/JR is included in the draft, I would expect another future 1st round pick and maybe even 2-3 future 2nd rounder as well

Why would we trade one of the best players in the league for draft picks in one of the weakest drafts, ever? It just seems like a ridiculous notion if you actually like the Knicks.

because if he opts out before 2015, and leaves for NOTHING, you get NOTHING, while the East continues to get stronger and better every year, we are very limited on our moves with the new CBA

and with Tyson Chandler, Amare, Melo, eating up the entire salary cap themselves the next 3 years
We had a best shot this year in contending, while we getting older, and are looking at the inability to even keep the players we have on the roster
With Rose, Rhondo, Granger, Wall, and whoever else improving, we are looking at regressing back instead of improving

If we couldn't do it this year, with all these injuries to these teams, WITHOUT even going to ECF, we just loss our best shot, and in 2014 summer, when Melo says "I have to do what is best for my career to contend for a ring when he opts out"

You say??

Bro, he's not leaving NY. And if he leaves NY in 2015, so what? We'll have no one but Novak and the 24th pick in this draft under contract, which will give us about $65-$70 million in cap space. The free agents of that draft class include Kyrie Irving, Kevin Love, Marc Gasol, Paul George and Rajon Rondo, which gives us the opportunity to add 3 allstars. Hell, I'd want A 30 year old Melo to leave if this happened.

he is not leaving because YOU said so?
he can opt out in 2014, so we can still get good value off him if we decided to go this route...
I am not saying we MUST do it but this is something management/Dolan must decide, if they are willing to pay him a Joe Johnson like deal to keep him if he opts out 1 year early, which in would not allow us to go after the FA class of 2015

Either of these scenario's would cripple the franchise, however, if Melo would stay and sign a 1 year deal at a MUCH LOWER salary in order for NY to build a team around him with 2015 FA class, Dolan can choose to compensate his pay with a Joe Johnson like deal after 2016
For this to happen, I would need Melo to let go of his opt out clause in his contract for 2014, because he has the ability to have too much leverage over the franchise

I don't have a problem if Dolan wants Melo to be next Joe Johnson or Allan Houston, I have a problem with it if it affects the ability to sign 2015 FA class...
I can care less if we surround ourselves with the talent/score needed to be LEGIT CONTENDERS and not FAKERS for the next 5 years after 2015-2020

That is just me, If i was Knick's management I would not allow Melo to have that leverage on the franchise, call him in, and ask if he wants to be the face of the franchise, retiring as a Knick, or not
If he does not want to let go of his opt out ability in 2014 *like D12 did in Orlando*, there should be NO HESITATION on what must be done for the sake on the franchise and the next 6 years
Getting back as many picks, assets, and players that can turn in to more picks should be easily the road to go if it is going to always be about him and NOT the team/franchise
We did what we could to acquire him and the inability to surround him with the talent needed is because of the price we didn't have to pay to acquire him, had he said "I AM NOT GOING TO SIGN AN EXTENSION TO ANYWHERE BUT NYK's" 2 and half seasons's ago.....