We see how a Dantoni offense predicated on ball movement "Ball finds energy" can be successful. Didn't work here because Melo is not Kobe. He lacks Kobe's speed, ball handling, court vision, basketball IQ etc.

In order for the Knicks to have a 50 win season they needed to surround Melo with players that cater to his strengths which primarily is ISO ball. I have no problem with iso ball. It worked for Jordan and Kobe but you still need to move the ball and trust your teammates.

Defenses key in on Melo especially in the playoffs. The only way this team will get out of the first round is by Melo moving the ball to Amare, Smith, Felton, Kidd, Sheed Prigs & Shumpert. Last year Melo didn't have those options. He had Jeffries, Fields and Toney Douglas.

NYKMentality wrote:

tkf wrote: He also said that he wouldn't be making scoring his priority.. yet he still takes a lot of shots and is avg more PPG than last year..

How about defense? does he plan on playing any of that consistently?

passing?

How about keeping cool, being poised and being a leader? that is part of helping your team win, yet he stands outside the celtics bus, and is near the top of the league in tech fouls..

carmelo is not being mocked.. many of us have seen this from him before... scoring especially.... I think the knicks hot start had a lot to do with a lot of guys playing and shooting well above their averages.... now that has tapered our record has not been so good.. yet carmelo still scores, still rebounds... right? so tell me, what is missing , maybe he should be doing something else?

just saying...

What a freaking hypocritical hypocrite you are. You talk up your little boy lover in Gallo and bash Melo 24/7.

You talk about Melo's scoring? Melo's at 29.4 points per game when compared to Gallo's 16.8.

You talk about Melo's shooting? Melo's FG% is at .452% when compared to Gallo's .418.

You talk about Melo's defense? Melo's been our strongest Knick defender here in 2012-2013 while Gallo is a laughing stock joke on defense.

You talk about Melo's passing? Melo's averaging 2.6 assists per game when compared to Gallo's 2.4.

You talk about Melo's rebounding? Melo's averaging 6.2 boards per game when compared to Gallo's 5.3.

You talk about the Knicks record under Melo? Melo's 24-11 while Gallo's only 28-17.

So yea, Melo's 2nd amongst all NBA players in scoring while featuring the NBA's 7th strongest Player Efficiency Rating. Why has Melo has to score in order for our Knicks to win ball games? Because our guards rank dead last in shooting percentage and Jason Kidd missed 4 games, without Raymond Felton for 12 games, without Kurt Thomas for 15 games, without Rasheed Wallace for 22 games, without Marcus Camby for 28 games, without Amar'e Stoudemire for 30 games and without Iman Shumpert for 37 games.

But yet, we're still 24-11 with Melo leading the way. A winning percentage of .686% during games in which Melo has led the way as the NBA's 2nd leading scorer. And only the Spurs, Thunder and Clippers have a winning percentage greater than .686%. Keep scoring Melo. Because that's all the Knicks do is win under Melo's scoring ability.

the problem with the stats you use to make your case is that they are being used to the exclusion of other stats that are perhaps a bit more reflective of the fluidness of the game. in other words, many of the stats you are using are relatively "static."

take the easiest one:

1)field goal percentage. since the advent of the 3-point line FG% is basically obsolete for all positions but center and the occasional power forward. i think you understand why this must be: it's because almost all positions but center shoot the 3 ball.

for that we use the eFG%. here gallinari is shooting a slightly below average 49.4 but he is slowly climbing to his career average. meanwhile melo is above his career average of 48.0-- he is at 51.4 but has been slowly regressing. eventually their averages will cross paths.

additionally, there is the ability to draw fouls and get to the line. this is a talent and the better players in the league tend to draw more fouls. agreed?

the stat for this is true shooting percentage or TS%. look at gallinari, who at present is below his career average of 57.7-- he is at 55.7 and climbing. and melo, again, is above his career average of 54.5% and is at an almost elite 57% but has been regressing there as well. really elite scorers are at 58% or higher. interestingly is for his career closer to elite than melo, but melo is considered the vastly better scorer. does this invalidate the TS%? i don't think so but it is pretty clear you do.

now lets look at something a little more esoteric, namely

2)usage rate as it relates to assist rate usg/ast-- this ratio represents how often the ball is in a player's hands as a play is made as it relates to how often that play ends up as an assist. the higher the ratio is above 1 the more we can see that the player is an isolation player who does not really share the ball and create cohesion. the further below the number is below 1 the more unselfish the player is and creates more offensive cohesion.

melo started the season at a way too high 3:1 and has since lessened that ratio to 2.50:1-- which is still too high. the raw numbers are 34.7 to 14.6. so he controls the ball on more than a third of the possessions in a five-man team game but the possession ends up with an assist only 14.6% of the time. gallinari meanwhile has a ratio of 1.91:1 with raw figures of 21.8 to 11.4. notice that he has the ball almost exactly one-fifth of the time in a five-man game. his 11.4 assist percentage is lower than melo's in terms of raw numbers, but if you have the ball a fifth of the time as opposed to a third of the time then of course the chance to assist will be lower too.

basketball being a game of motion and fluidity is more like calculus and these deeper metrics are superior representations of this fluidity. the stats you are using are more suitable for baseball, which is by nature a static game.

nixluva wrote:

gunsnewing wrote:Exactly Nix. However it is impossible to try to get Melo to play like Kobe and Lebron. He doesn't have the same skill sets. Therefore getting rid of MDA and surrounding Melo with players that cater to his skills was the onl option other than trading Melo when his value was at an all time low and getting completely hosed in the deal

I actually think that part of Melo being more of a passer is entirely possible and he's shown that. The thing is that he's not a guard and can't drive and kick at the same level as Kobe, but he can EASILY play a role similar to Chris Webber where he gets the ball and looks for teammates FIRST before he decides to go ISO, unless he gets the ball off a curl play and is meant to catch and shoot. Thing is that in most situations Melo gets the ball and doesn't immediately shoot it. This means he has a chance to look for cutters, see if he's going to get doubled and then have an open teammate.

So yes Melo is not the same player as Kobe in terms of proving the defense off the dribble, but he can surely scan the court after he gets the ball in the post rather than go 1 on 2 or 1 on 3 as he often does. By doing this he creates open shots for his teammates and that makes everyone better.

Swishfm3 wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

Swishfm3 wrote:NYKMentality.....I must say that, although I do appreciate the passion you espress in some of your posts, your constant need to feel that you have to defend Melo in every thread is as annoying as nix defending MDA.

You're repeating things so much that now I'm starting to hate Melo.

Nix isn't close to this level. Maybe he was in the first couple of months after the resignation, but it's much rarer now.

Has it?....i wouldn't know because I don't read Nix's posts anymore...just scroll over it. Guess I will be doing the same with NYK posts as well.

Whats the difference between the way NYK defends Melo and the way TKF repeats how much he hates Melo ans bashes him at every opportunity?

nixluva wrote:

NYKMentality wrote:

gunsnewing wrote: We see how a Dantoni offense predicated on ball movement "Ball finds energy" can be successful. Didn't work here because Melo is not Kobe. He lacks Kobe's speed, ball handling, court vision, basketball IQ etc.

This post above made me laugh. It's funny. Why?

Because Kobe and the Lakers only have a losing record of 15-20 under D'Antoni.

I'll tell ya what, Kobe and the Lakers are doing "just great" under Mike D'Antoni's "ball movement".

Maybe Melo should shoot and score even more for our Knicks moving forward. Why? Because we're 24-11 (.686%) while Melo has ranked 2nd amongst all NBA players in scoring. Melo's scoring and/or scoring ability is more than 'just working', it's working at a high clip with win after win. A winning percentage of .686 to be exact as Melo ranks only behind Durant in points scored per game.

The record in LA for MDA is not really going to be an accurate measure of his success after just 35 games, many of which they haven't had all of their players and of course there would be an adjustment period where they had to work out some issues. The W/L record will be better by the end of the season.

The main point is that with Kobe now doing essentially what MDA was asking Melo to do it's clear to see that if the star player makes up his mind to actually TRY to lead his team in playing TEAM BALL rather than just trying to shoot his way to wins, it can be enormously successful. Since Kobe had become more of a passer, rebounder, defender it has had a huge positive impact on the team.

The way the Knicks are built now we have more passers than last year, but we still need to keep playing unselfish BB. For that to happen, Melo and JR have to stop going SOLO so much and move the damn ball. That's all any of us are saying. When the season started the ball was moving and the team was much more efficient. When Melo and JR are just jacking up shots or Kobe as well, their teams don't do well. Who knows if Kobe can keep his mind focused as it is now on making his teammates better. We do know that Melo already lost that focus that he had at the start of the year and the team hasn't been anywhere near as efficient nor as solid on D since he's lost his focus on TEAM BALL. It starts with the teams best player!!!

Swishfm3 wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

Swishfm3 wrote:NYKMentality.....I must say that, although I do appreciate the passion you espress in some of your posts, your constant need to feel that you have to defend Melo in every thread is as annoying as nix defending MDA.

You're repeating things so much that now I'm starting to hate Melo.

Nix isn't close to this level. Maybe he was in the first couple of months after the resignation, but it's much rarer now.

Has it?....i wouldn't know because I don't read Nix's posts anymore...just scroll over it. Guess I will be doing the same with NYK posts as well.

LOL

CashMoney wrote:

dk7th wrote:

NYKMentality wrote:

tkf wrote: He also said that he wouldn't be making scoring his priority.. yet he still takes a lot of shots and is avg more PPG than last year..

How about defense? does he plan on playing any of that consistently?

passing?

How about keeping cool, being poised and being a leader? that is part of helping your team win, yet he stands outside the celtics bus, and is near the top of the league in tech fouls..

carmelo is not being mocked.. many of us have seen this from him before... scoring especially.... I think the knicks hot start had a lot to do with a lot of guys playing and shooting well above their averages.... now that has tapered our record has not been so good.. yet carmelo still scores, still rebounds... right? so tell me, what is missing , maybe he should be doing something else?

just saying...

What a freaking hypocritical hypocrite you are. You talk up your little boy lover in Gallo and bash Melo 24/7.

You talk about Melo's scoring? Melo's at 29.4 points per game when compared to Gallo's 16.8.

You talk about Melo's shooting? Melo's FG% is at .452% when compared to Gallo's .418.

You talk about Melo's defense? Melo's been our strongest Knick defender here in 2012-2013 while Gallo is a laughing stock joke on defense.

You talk about Melo's passing? Melo's averaging 2.6 assists per game when compared to Gallo's 2.4.

You talk about Melo's rebounding? Melo's averaging 6.2 boards per game when compared to Gallo's 5.3.

You talk about the Knicks record under Melo? Melo's 24-11 while Gallo's only 28-17.

So yea, Melo's 2nd amongst all NBA players in scoring while featuring the NBA's 7th strongest Player Efficiency Rating. Why has Melo has to score in order for our Knicks to win ball games? Because our guards rank dead last in shooting percentage and Jason Kidd missed 4 games, without Raymond Felton for 12 games, without Kurt Thomas for 15 games, without Rasheed Wallace for 22 games, without Marcus Camby for 28 games, without Amar'e Stoudemire for 30 games and without Iman Shumpert for 37 games.

But yet, we're still 24-11 with Melo leading the way. A winning percentage of .686% during games in which Melo has led the way as the NBA's 2nd leading scorer. And only the Spurs, Thunder and Clippers have a winning percentage greater than .686%. Keep scoring Melo. Because that's all the Knicks do is win under Melo's scoring ability.

the problem with the stats you use to make your case is that they are being used to the exclusion of other stats that are perhaps a bit more reflective of the fluidness of the game. in other words, many of the stats you are using are relatively "static."

take the easiest one:

1)field goal percentage. since the advent of the 3-point line FG% is basically obsolete for all positions but center and the occasional power forward. i think you understand why this must be: it's because almost all positions but center shoot the 3 ball.

for that we use the eFG%. here gallinari is shooting a slightly below average 49.4 but he is slowly climbing to his career average. meanwhile melo is above his career average of 48.0-- he is at 51.4 but has been slowly regressing. eventually their averages will cross paths.

additionally, there is the ability to draw fouls and get to the line. this is a talent and the better players in the league tend to draw more fouls. agreed?

the stat for this is true shooting percentage or TS%. look at gallinari, who at present is below his career average of 57.7-- he is at 55.7 and climbing. and melo, again, is above his career average of 54.5% and is at an almost elite 57% but has been regressing there as well. really elite scorers are at 58% or higher. interestingly is for his career closer to elite than melo, but melo is considered the vastly better scorer. does this invalidate the TS%? i don't think so but it is pretty clear you do.

now lets look at something a little more esoteric, namely

2)usage rate as it relates to assist rate usg/ast-- this ratio represents how often the ball is in a player's hands as a play is made as it relates to how often that play ends up as an assist. the higher the ratio is above 1 the more we can see that the player is an isolation player who does not really share the ball and create cohesion. the further below the number is below 1 the more unselfish the player is and creates more offensive cohesion.

melo started the season at a way too high 3:1 and has since lessened that ratio to 2.50:1-- which is still too high. the raw numbers are 34.7 to 14.6. so he controls the ball on more than a third of the possessions in a five-man team game but the possession ends up with an assist only 14.6% of the time. gallinari meanwhile has a ratio of 1.91:1 with raw figures of 21.8 to 11.4. notice that he has the ball almost exactly one-fifth of the time in a five-man game. his 11.4 assist percentage is lower than melo's in terms of raw numbers, but if you have the ball a fifth of the time as opposed to a third of the time then of course the chance to assist will be lower too.

basketball being a game of motion and fluidity is more like calculus and these deeper metrics are superior representations of this fluidity. the stats you are using are more suitable for baseball, which is by nature a static game.

Usage rate to assist rate? Dude do you actually watch the games or just check out the box score. Melo's passes normally do not result in an assist if he's doubled. He kicks the ball out and the ball is then passed again. Assist rate? We talkin about assist rate? We're 24-11 with Melo and we talking about assist rate?

you clearly don't understand what the assist rate statistic represents.

the assist rate is for when the possession includes an assist, so if melo makes a pass that leads to a pass that leads to a score then his assist rate goes up.

that should clear things up for you i think.

but in case it doesn't i will use an example to make things clear for you and others who insist on pooh-poohing these things.

tim duncan has averaged 3.1 assists for his career but his usg/ast ratio is 1.68:1. this is sheer greatness for a center/pf whose game is almost entirely in the post.
carmelo has also averaged 3.1 assists for his career but his usg/ast ratio is 1.97:1 which is mediocre for a wing player. this season it has ballooned to 2.50 which is just too high.

who is the better team player? never mind who had the better teams... who is the better team player?

People doubting the Lakers, have you been paying attention? Kobe flirted with triple doubles last 3 games.

14 assists vs Utah
14 assists vs OKC
11 assists vs New Orleans