We legislated alcohol out of existence. How did that work out?

You cannot legislate behaviour. The revolving logic that holds doggedly to the idea that creating laws about inanimate things will keep criminals from doing bad things is the height of ignorance. Prohibition stopped law abiding people from getting alcohol. It did not stop bootleggers and organized crime. Gin flowed.

Gun control stops law-abiding people like you and me from getting AK-47's and the like; it won't stop people who are bound and determined to do evil. It's a big world, there are ways to get whatever you want.

And I don't own a gun, and I've never hunted in my life.

Nuts have used fertilizer and box cutters to kill hundreds and thousands. We increased security. Legislation about fertilizer and box cutters should be on the way.

And lots of folks I know don't target shoot at silouhettes of people. They shoot at targets...bulleyes.

You have a society that glorifies and pumps out CGI violence in all forms, and then you cry for the laws to resolve everything when atrocious massacres like this happen, over and over again.

The mall, the movie theatre, schools, the airport, the embassies... it goes on and on and on.

Change your society. Concentrate on that abstract connection between the morality and the things that are real. That's really not that abstract at all.

jrodmc wrote:Yes. What was alcohol created for? For recreation? For relaxation? Or for directly causing the deaths of hundreds of thousands of people each year in traffic accidents.

We legislated alcohol out of existence. How did that work out?

You cannot legislate behaviour. The revolving logic that holds doggedly to the idea that creating laws about inanimate things will keep criminals from doing bad things is the height of ignorance. Prohibition stopped law abiding people from getting alcohol. It did not stop bootleggers and organized crime. Gin flowed.

Gun control stops law-abiding people like you and me from getting AK-47's and the like; it won't stop people who are bound and determined to do evil. It's a big world, there are ways to get whatever you want.

And I don't own a gun, and I've never hunted in my life.

Nuts have used fertilizer and box cutters to kill hundreds and thousands. We increased security. Legislation about fertilizer and box cutters should be on the way.

And lots of folks I know don't target shoot at silouhettes of people. They shoot at targets...bulleyes.

You have a society that glorifies and pumps out CGI violence in all forms, and then you cry for the laws to resolve everything when atrocious massacres like this happen, over and over again.

The mall, the movie theatre, schools, the airport, the embassies... it goes on and on and on.

Change your society. Concentrate on that abstract connection between the morality and the things that are real. That's really not that abstract at all.

prohibition didn't work because of the era, not because it wasn't the right thing to do. There simply weren't enough police and the lack of technology made it almost impossible. In this day and age, where you can see a still from orbit with satellites, it can be done. You really shouldn't bring up things from the near dark ages to support an argument.

Cocaine, a hellofadrug, was once considered a miracle drug and was in everything from tooth paste to hair tonic. It may still exist but the laws put in place have severely curtailed it's use. When is the last time someone caused a car crash because they were sniffing blow??? Same could be done for alcohol.

Taking guns out of peoples hands won't happen no matter how much I moan but, holding people liable for the use of those guns is reasonable. If your kids break into your locker, you should still be liable because they should have been better secured. Or better yet, do like my dad did.....never let your kids know where they are.

My pop was a NYC Cop for over 20years before retirement and I NEVER Ever saw his gun. Believe me, I looked for it.

playa2 wrote:

DurzoBlint wrote:

playa2 wrote:Most people don't even grasp the concept of critical thinking... example: They talk of gun control to solve the problem when in this situation, the guns used were 'stolen' - no gun control will ever keep the guns out of the hands of a thief or gang members or the insane, yet people still cry out for gun control. It is totally illogical!

The gun did not kill, the person(s) using the gun killed just like a knife, poison, IED, etc. would only kill because the person's using it gave it the power to carry out a function.

People are far less likely to use a Knife because of the necessary close quarters. Any coward can pull a trigger though. Poisons (often) take some intelligence and forethought which, is often sadly lacking in the perpetrators. Guns are the most likely medium people use. You take the guns out of peoples hands or, let them know they will be criminally liable for any crime committed with that gun if you intend to own one.

I don't care if they are locked away, placed on the moon, if you buy a gun and someone gets their hands on it to use for a crime, YOU SHOULD BE LIABLE. Liable because you were negligent in your choice of storage.

These are the very same people who cannot conceive of the fact that this incident, as horrific and tragic as it is, is but a snapshot of what happens to people around the world everyday because their gov'ts totally control them and/or other govt's such as the U.S. bomb countries and kill innocents just like these innocents at Sandy Hook.

wow, I'm not sure how to even response to that

fishmike wrote:

jrodmc wrote:Yes. What was alcohol created for? For recreation? For relaxation? Or for directly causing the deaths of hundreds of thousands of people each year in traffic accidents.

We legislated alcohol out of existence. How did that work out?

You cannot legislate behaviour. The revolving logic that holds doggedly to the idea that creating laws about inanimate things will keep criminals from doing bad things is the height of ignorance. Prohibition stopped law abiding people from getting alcohol. It did not stop bootleggers and organized crime. Gin flowed.

Gun control stops law-abiding people like you and me from getting AK-47's and the like; it won't stop people who are bound and determined to do evil. It's a big world, there are ways to get whatever you want.

And I don't own a gun, and I've never hunted in my life.

Nuts have used fertilizer and box cutters to kill hundreds and thousands. We increased security. Legislation about fertilizer and box cutters should be on the way.

And lots of folks I know don't target shoot at silouhettes of people. They shoot at targets...bulleyes.

You have a society that glorifies and pumps out CGI violence in all forms, and then you cry for the laws to resolve everything when atrocious massacres like this happen, over and over again.

The mall, the movie theatre, schools, the airport, the embassies... it goes on and on and on.

Change your society. Concentrate on that abstract connection between the morality and the things that are real. That's really not that abstract at all.

assuming this is directed at me.

Alcohol and guns are the same? OK... but your 10000% wrong, because you CAN legislate behavior. Have drunk driving fatalities gone down? Yes they have. Tougher drunk driving rules have reduced the accidents.

Nothing will eliminate the threat. Nobody is suggesting such a solution. But those who would say non action? Well I guess since about 17k were killed in booze related traffic fatalities why bother to legislate it all?

Sorry, but the legislation works and the numbers prove it.

Your right.. change society. The problem is people cant agree on how. In the meantime its OK to pass laws that protect citizens. There's a reason you cant buy dynomite at Home Depot, and there is a reason regular citizens should not have weapons designed to kill and do so with speed, acuracy and quantity. If this guy had to reload after 3 shots a lot more kids are in that school. Thats the reality.

No, you see, the reality is he didn't get the guns legally. He stole them. So if he couldn't steal them from him mom, did that mean he says, oh well, I guess i'm stymied?

Here's a newsflash for you. He could go on the internet and find someone to buy the gun/fetilizer/c4/plutonium from. Good, law-abiding people don't do things like that. That's the problem. The people who do atrocities like this are not "regular citizens".

This person shot his mother in the face, point blank. He didn't need to reload.

And lets follow your logic. He couldn't get his hands on a Bushmaster or a handgun that fires off more than three rounds. So, instead he has what? 6 or 7 handguns that fire three rounds each? You do the math. And how tough is it to find someone who will show you step by step how to adjust your safe, three round only weapon to fire 30 at a clip?

Counting bullets is not going to solve anything, and thinking it will is beyond reality. It's a pacifier for the horror.

Do you honestly think the majority of your drug dealers, gang bangers and lunatic fringe groups are going to be worried about the nice legislation you're going to put in place to stop them from getting and distributing these weapons?

You don't learn from the past, then you repeat it. And saying we don't know how to change society, but it's okay to pass laws is a bit confusing.

Next week, it will be legislation on gasoline.

jrodmc wrote:

fishmike wrote:

jrodmc wrote:Yes. What was alcohol created for? For recreation? For relaxation? Or for directly causing the deaths of hundreds of thousands of people each year in traffic accidents.

We legislated alcohol out of existence. How did that work out?

You cannot legislate behaviour. The revolving logic that holds doggedly to the idea that creating laws about inanimate things will keep criminals from doing bad things is the height of ignorance. Prohibition stopped law abiding people from getting alcohol. It did not stop bootleggers and organized crime. Gin flowed.

Gun control stops law-abiding people like you and me from getting AK-47's and the like; it won't stop people who are bound and determined to do evil. It's a big world, there are ways to get whatever you want.

And I don't own a gun, and I've never hunted in my life.

Nuts have used fertilizer and box cutters to kill hundreds and thousands. We increased security. Legislation about fertilizer and box cutters should be on the way.

And lots of folks I know don't target shoot at silouhettes of people. They shoot at targets...bulleyes.

You have a society that glorifies and pumps out CGI violence in all forms, and then you cry for the laws to resolve everything when atrocious massacres like this happen, over and over again.

The mall, the movie theatre, schools, the airport, the embassies... it goes on and on and on.

Change your society. Concentrate on that abstract connection between the morality and the things that are real. That's really not that abstract at all.

assuming this is directed at me.

Alcohol and guns are the same? OK... but your 10000% wrong, because you CAN legislate behavior. Have drunk driving fatalities gone down? Yes they have. Tougher drunk driving rules have reduced the accidents.

Nothing will eliminate the threat. Nobody is suggesting such a solution. But those who would say non action? Well I guess since about 17k were killed in booze related traffic fatalities why bother to legislate it all?

Sorry, but the legislation works and the numbers prove it.

Your right.. change society. The problem is people cant agree on how. In the meantime its OK to pass laws that protect citizens. There's a reason you cant buy dynomite at Home Depot, and there is a reason regular citizens should not have weapons designed to kill and do so with speed, acuracy and quantity. If this guy had to reload after 3 shots a lot more kids are in that school. Thats the reality.

No, you see, the reality is he didn't get the guns legally. He stole them. So if he couldn't steal them from him mom, did that mean he says, oh well, I guess i'm stymied?

Here's a newsflash for you. He could go on the internet and find someone to buy the gun/fetilizer/c4/plutonium from. Good, law-abiding people don't do things like that. That's the problem. The people who do atrocities like this are not "regular citizens".

This person shot his mother in the face, point blank. He didn't need to reload.

And lets follow your logic. He couldn't get his hands on a Bushmaster or a handgun that fires off more than three rounds. So, instead he has what? 6 or 7 handguns that fire three rounds each? You do the math. And how tough is it to find someone who will show you step by step how to adjust your safe, three round only weapon to fire 30 at a clip?

Counting bullets is not going to solve anything, and thinking it will is beyond reality. It's a pacifier for the horror.

Do you honestly think the majority of your drug dealers, gang bangers and lunatic fringe groups are going to be worried about the nice legislation you're going to put in place to stop them from getting and distributing these weapons?

You don't learn from the past, then you repeat it. And saying we don't know how to change society, but it's okay to pass laws is a bit confusing.

Next week, it will be legislation on gasoline.

or, he might have not done anything of the sort. You can't justify such an assumption.

And if she had properly secured them in a safe (for instance) he could not have gotten to them. And who in their right mind teaches an autistic kid to use a firearm. You NEVER know whats going on in their head and, this on in particular had issues relating to others. No hugging or toughing or affection of any sort. Sounds like a possible social path to me.

playa2 wrote:Many around the country ONLY rely on what they have been told by mainstream media. I'm ex military, most never do a diligent research on these matters and only look on the surface level of the reporting.

This is why your conclusions are so shallow. How long did you all start believing only what the media tells ya ? Go to the off topic section and get some news many of you have never even thought of yet.

yep... I can't fully relate as I am not former militsary (thank you for your service) however I used to contract with governments in the Middle East - the world is nothing like how the media puports it to be. The worst part is a lot of people really want to know how the world really is and think they have tricked themselves into the false belief that they are well-informed because they consume more corporate media than their peers

jrodmc wrote:

fishmike wrote:

jrodmc wrote:Yes. What was alcohol created for? For recreation? For relaxation? Or for directly causing the deaths of hundreds of thousands of people each year in traffic accidents.

We legislated alcohol out of existence. How did that work out?

You cannot legislate behaviour. The revolving logic that holds doggedly to the idea that creating laws about inanimate things will keep criminals from doing bad things is the height of ignorance. Prohibition stopped law abiding people from getting alcohol. It did not stop bootleggers and organized crime. Gin flowed.

Gun control stops law-abiding people like you and me from getting AK-47's and the like; it won't stop people who are bound and determined to do evil. It's a big world, there are ways to get whatever you want.

And I don't own a gun, and I've never hunted in my life.

Nuts have used fertilizer and box cutters to kill hundreds and thousands. We increased security. Legislation about fertilizer and box cutters should be on the way.

And lots of folks I know don't target shoot at silouhettes of people. They shoot at targets...bulleyes.

You have a society that glorifies and pumps out CGI violence in all forms, and then you cry for the laws to resolve everything when atrocious massacres like this happen, over and over again.

The mall, the movie theatre, schools, the airport, the embassies... it goes on and on and on.

Change your society. Concentrate on that abstract connection between the morality and the things that are real. That's really not that abstract at all.

assuming this is directed at me.

Alcohol and guns are the same? OK... but your 10000% wrong, because you CAN legislate behavior. Have drunk driving fatalities gone down? Yes they have. Tougher drunk driving rules have reduced the accidents.

Nothing will eliminate the threat. Nobody is suggesting such a solution. But those who would say non action? Well I guess since about 17k were killed in booze related traffic fatalities why bother to legislate it all?

Sorry, but the legislation works and the numbers prove it.

Your right.. change society. The problem is people cant agree on how. In the meantime its OK to pass laws that protect citizens. There's a reason you cant buy dynomite at Home Depot, and there is a reason regular citizens should not have weapons designed to kill and do so with speed, acuracy and quantity. If this guy had to reload after 3 shots a lot more kids are in that school. Thats the reality.

No, you see, the reality is he didn't get the guns legally. He stole them. So if he couldn't steal them from him mom, did that mean he says, oh well, I guess i'm stymied?

Here's a newsflash for you. He could go on the internet and find someone to buy the gun/fetilizer/c4/plutonium from. Good, law-abiding people don't do things like that. That's the problem. The people who do atrocities like this are not "regular citizens".
This person shot his mother in the face, point blank. He didn't need to reload.

And lets follow your logic. He couldn't get his hands on a Bushmaster or a handgun that fires off more than three rounds. So, instead he has what? 6 or 7 handguns that fire three rounds each? You do the math. And how tough is it to find someone who will show you step by step how to adjust your safe, three round only weapon to fire 30 at a clip?

Counting bullets is not going to solve anything, and thinking it will is beyond reality. It's a pacifier for the horror.

Do you honestly think the majority of your drug dealers, gang bangers and lunatic fringe groups are going to be worried about the nice legislation you're going to put in place to stop them from getting and distributing these weapons?

You don't learn from the past, then you repeat it. And saying we don't know how to change society, but it's okay to pass laws is a bit confusing.

Next week, it will be legislation on gasoline.

You missed the point on the 3 bullets. If the weapon can be altered to fire more its illegal. As I said banning guns wont work in the this country, but anything that can be done to protect citizens should be looked at.

Whats the action your proposing to this discussion jrod?

You only believed what the media told you even though not one eyewitness can prove they saw them shoot anyone even though people died.

Rolling my eyes shaking my head in unbelief. I'm done with this.

SupremeCommander wrote:the media essentially glorifies the **** out of the killers. There was something floating around facebook that I completely agree with... the basic questions were: who is Dylan Klebold or Eric Harris or Jared Lee Loughner or Adam Lanzer? Can you name just one of their victims? The ****ing media turns these guys into celebrities and the way they report things like body counts gives these sick people an aim or a benchmark to beat

Or they hype these guys up to make sure you never think of any other probable cause by brain washing you by constantly showing their names and faces.
Propaganda at it's best !