gunsnewing wrote:Which brings this back to how silly it is to bring Amare off the bench and continue to start Melo at the 4. Especially against teams like Brooklyn and Memphis

fishmike wrote:

Hersports85 wrote:

fishmike wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

fishmike wrote:nyny... Pierce made a few trips to the ECF with Anoine Walker as a running mate. Granted the East was dreadful but he won a lot of playoff games before Boston added KG, Ray and Rondo

Melo is a better player, but who's career would you rather have?

Id take Pierce career easy as it stands. He has a championship and has gotten to play with one of my favorite players in Garnett. IMO though if Melo's Denver teams were playing in the east vs the same comp Melo would probably have the same success as Pierce did at that time. But again thats just my opinion.

I don't think Boston's style of play was really a threat to beat any top flight team. They just jacked up a ton of 3s, I didn't really see Pierce carry his team to greatness or anything but it was a long time ago I don't really remember.

they werent and he didnt. I guess thats kinda the point. Pierce's best BB is played when he does less and his surrounded by talent. Is that a knock on PP? Not really, just that he's not Lebron or Ewing or the kind of player that you can put role players around and win 50 games every year. Melo might be close to that, but he falls short because his teams are terrible in the playoffs. Ewing's werent. PP's werent either.

Like I said and will continue to say.. some folks are simply waiting to see Melo's greatness when it counts the most. Also seems like for each of his great playoff games he's laid an egg also. Hard to win a series when your best player is so eratic. We traded our roster, picks, cap space and paid this guy max money to come here and be the man, but people get so sensitive when you mention or expect him to be a difference maker come this spring.

Now this is fair. For me, I expect for this team to reach the ECF. That's something we can build on, considering our window is 3 years with this team. Now, Melo is one of my favorite players, but if he doesn't get it done with a team finally built around him, as it is now, I will be the first to say he may not be the player we thought or expected him to be.

His playoff experience have been terrible, mostly because of the conference and the team he was surrounded with. I also think GK wasn't a good fit, but whatever. We will see how everything plays out.

Lastly, am I the only one who doesn't think we are in such bad shape concerning the future. We act like Tyson, Melo and Felton doesn't have a good 5 years left. I'm not sure how Amare knees hold up. Not mention Shump, Jr and Brewer (who i think we keep) are pretty young. We also have a few picks of our own and will continue to add veterans. Trust ... it's not all doom and gloom.

then your not a minion, your a hate. Impossible to discuss and of Melo's shortcomings around here without being labeled so. Silly isnt it?

I hated Melo trade. Why? Here's why:
1) broke up a very young team just hitting its stride. 21-9 over a 30 game stretch after a bad start with wins vs. Dallas, OKC, Spurs, Den and others
2) killed our cap space for the following year
3) cost us Felton. Hated trading 26 yo PG for a 36 yo PG when the coach's system required an uptemp PG
4) didnt think a guy with such a bad playoff performance record was the one you gut your roster for
5) lack of picks would hurt our ability to improve

Im thrilled Felton is back, and whether its luck or skill we (grunwald) have been able out the roster with role players who fit exactly into what the coach is trying to accomplish.

I dont hate Melo. Ive just never been given a reason to love him. Im hoping he provides that this year.

he won me my fraternity's NCAA pool... beer money for the rest of the semester

NUPE wrote:

MSG3 wrote:
Of course I do! I commented the other day that if "Great" is MJ, Magic, Bird, etc, then Melo is not great. But to use his very good numbers and say they are not elite, thus the Knicks would be doing this without him, is BS. What this boils down to is people want Melo to be LeBron. That will never ever ever ever happen. Yes, we paid a hig price for Melo, but in the end it was the right call. It took time to build a good team around him but you have to start somewhere.

And to your comment that we'd by .400 without Tyson and Kidd, that's like saying MJ would never have won a title without Pippen and guys like Grant, Rodman, etc. Basically, you're saying Melo isn't the type of difference maker that you can win with no matter what the rest of the roster looks like. But who is? The only guy that you can make a case for is LeBron, and even he didn't do it until he was playing with Wade and Bosh.

What exactly are we arguing????

You are arguing with people intent on giving Melo no credit. They kill Melo for losing with bad players. The give Melo zero credit for winning (thus far this season) with good players. They create double and triple standards and focus on "advanced" stats when the stats typically relied upon do not provide the result they desire. There is no legitimate conversation to be had with certain posters.

Is Melo Michael Jordan? No. Is Melo Olajuwon? No. Is Melo Lebron? No. Is Melo playing at an elite level this year? Yes. Is Melo playing good defense this year? Yes. Is Melo helping the Knicks win in an offense built around his skill-set? Yes.

This. And +1

We are reduced to comparing Melo to Antoine Walker.

We are reduced to comparing the value of Paul Pierce's pre-chip days to Melo's entire career.

We are reduced to talking up beyond all reason a PG at the end of his career and a monster defensive presence with the documented offensive skill set of Earl Cureton. Both great players.

We are reduced to either nodding begrudgingly at our Chief Franchise Starphucque for his D and loose ball diving, or we wave it off as some too-little, too late mirage caused by the shockingly good play of those around him, carrying his baggage and self-centered doucheplay along to dayum near the top of the league.

We are reduced to hoping and praying this either:
1) implodes with him on the floor
2) some Linsane happening to occur and endure when he's not on the floor.

Have fun fellas, keep watching the games. I sure as hell am having fun!

Nice game Ty! Good hustle, Gallo! Sorry you missed the 4th quarter!
Expecting great things tonight, Bropez! Be careful with that foot!

jrodmc wrote:

NUPE wrote:

MSG3 wrote:
Of course I do! I commented the other day that if "Great" is MJ, Magic, Bird, etc, then Melo is not great. But to use his very good numbers and say they are not elite, thus the Knicks would be doing this without him, is BS. What this boils down to is people want Melo to be LeBron. That will never ever ever ever happen. Yes, we paid a hig price for Melo, but in the end it was the right call. It took time to build a good team around him but you have to start somewhere.

And to your comment that we'd by .400 without Tyson and Kidd, that's like saying MJ would never have won a title without Pippen and guys like Grant, Rodman, etc. Basically, you're saying Melo isn't the type of difference maker that you can win with no matter what the rest of the roster looks like. But who is? The only guy that you can make a case for is LeBron, and even he didn't do it until he was playing with Wade and Bosh.

What exactly are we arguing????

You are arguing with people intent on giving Melo no credit. They kill Melo for losing with bad players. The give Melo zero credit for winning (thus far this season) with good players. They create double and triple standards and focus on "advanced" stats when the stats typically relied upon do not provide the result they desire. There is no legitimate conversation to be had with certain posters.

Is Melo Michael Jordan? No. Is Melo Olajuwon? No. Is Melo Lebron? No. Is Melo playing at an elite level this year? Yes. Is Melo playing good defense this year? Yes. Is Melo helping the Knicks win in an offense built around his skill-set? Yes.

This. And +1

We are reduced to comparing Melo to Antoine Walker.

We are reduced to comparing the value of Paul Pierce's pre-chip days to Melo's entire career.

We are reduced to talking up beyond all reason a PG at the end of his career and a monster defensive presence with the documented offensive skill set of Earl Cureton. Both great players.

We are reduced to either nodding begrudgingly at our Chief Franchise Starphucque for his D and loose ball diving, or we wave it off as some too-little, too late mirage caused by the shockingly good play of those around him, carrying his baggage and self-centered doucheplay along to dayum near the top of the league.

We are reduced to hoping and praying this either:
1) implodes with him on the floor
2) some Linsane happening to occur and endure when he's not on the floor.

Have fun fellas, keep watching the games. I sure as hell am having fun!

Nice game Ty! Good hustle, Gallo! Sorry you missed the 4th quarter!
Expecting great things tonight, Bropez! Be careful with that foot!

jrodmc wrote:

fishmike wrote:

jrodmc wrote:

NUPE wrote:

MSG3 wrote:
Of course I do! I commented the other day that if "Great" is MJ, Magic, Bird, etc, then Melo is not great. But to use his very good numbers and say they are not elite, thus the Knicks would be doing this without him, is BS. What this boils down to is people want Melo to be LeBron. That will never ever ever ever happen. Yes, we paid a hig price for Melo, but in the end it was the right call. It took time to build a good team around him but you have to start somewhere.

And to your comment that we'd by .400 without Tyson and Kidd, that's like saying MJ would never have won a title without Pippen and guys like Grant, Rodman, etc. Basically, you're saying Melo isn't the type of difference maker that you can win with no matter what the rest of the roster looks like. But who is? The only guy that you can make a case for is LeBron, and even he didn't do it until he was playing with Wade and Bosh.

What exactly are we arguing????

You are arguing with people intent on giving Melo no credit. They kill Melo for losing with bad players. The give Melo zero credit for winning (thus far this season) with good players. They create double and triple standards and focus on "advanced" stats when the stats typically relied upon do not provide the result they desire. There is no legitimate conversation to be had with certain posters.

Is Melo Michael Jordan? No. Is Melo Olajuwon? No. Is Melo Lebron? No. Is Melo playing at an elite level this year? Yes. Is Melo playing good defense this year? Yes. Is Melo helping the Knicks win in an offense built around his skill-set? Yes.

This. And +1

We are reduced to comparing Melo to Antoine Walker.

We are reduced to comparing the value of Paul Pierce's pre-chip days to Melo's entire career.

We are reduced to talking up beyond all reason a PG at the end of his career and a monster defensive presence with the documented offensive skill set of Earl Cureton. Both great players.

We are reduced to either nodding begrudgingly at our Chief Franchise Starphucque for his D and loose ball diving, or we wave it off as some too-little, too late mirage caused by the shockingly good play of those around him, carrying his baggage and self-centered doucheplay along to dayum near the top of the league.

We are reduced to hoping and praying this either:
1) implodes with him on the floor
2) some Linsane happening to occur and endure when he's not on the floor.

Have fun fellas, keep watching the games. I sure as hell am having fun!

Nice game Ty! Good hustle, Gallo! Sorry you missed the 4th quarter!
Expecting great things tonight, Bropez! Be careful with that foot!

lol... the mental masturbation continues

Yeah, it's crazy how turned on some people get talking about TS% and "making others better", isn't it? Cap space..draft picks...potenshull...

gunsnewing wrote:and remember a lot of his rebounds comes off his own misses from point blank. He is not tall and athletic enough to play the 4 every night. Amare is not a great defender/rebounder but he is big and 9rebs out of the 4 with a block per game is better than 6rebs

I don't see how rebounding your own miss is any better or worse than rebounding someone else's miss. A rebound is rebound.

MSG3 wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

MSG3 wrote:

tkf wrote:

MSG3 wrote:

tkf wrote:

fishmike wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:Putting people in position to succeed and covering there weaknesses = winning formula.
Putting people in position to fail and then bashing them for not overcoming all obsticales = losing/dysfunctional formula.

A lot of the knocks on Melo were legit at the same time he was slightly over criticized. The problem I had was the viewpoint that he would never get better or ever find success when over the yrs of watching basketball we have seen tons of players do so in the later parts of there careers.

this more than anything else.

Is Melo shooting better?
Is Melo rebounding more?
Is Melo getting more assists?
Is Melo getting more steals? FTS?

How do you quanity Melo doing anything better than he has done the reason of his career?

He's an star and he's playing like an all star. Team is better and winning more games because the team is better so they are winning more games.

Is Melo shooting better?

NO

Is Melo rebounding more?

NO

Is Melo getting more assists?

absolutely NOT..

Is Melo getting more steals? FTS?

NO

How do you quanity Melo doing anything better than he has done the reason of his career?

good post, but you must remember around here...

he is a Knick Fish, the heart wants to believe what the heart wants to believe...

again, I am more impressed with how kidd is playing than anything else...

Wow...you can't even do the work to compare his season stats to his career numbers? He's at his career averages for everything except 3pt FG% (up by 13) and assists (down by 1 because he's on the court with 2 point guards most of the time).

You obviously put on a show to get the board riled up. If not, it's beyond me how you or anyone else can't support Melo when he is doing everything ever asked of him.

OK, SO what are you talking about, fish was asking is he doing anything better.. overall, he isn't... the end bro..

Oh I see. You're saying his career numbers are bad. This means you have no basketball perspective whatsoever. The end bro...

You don't see any ground between "elite" and "bad"? Maybe you are the one who lacks perspective.

Of course I do! I commented the other day that if "Great" is MJ, Magic, Bird, etc, then Melo is not great. But to use his very good numbers and say they are not elite, thus the Knicks would be doing this without him, is BS. What this boils down to is people want Melo to be LeBron. That will never ever ever ever happen. Yes, we paid a hig price for Melo, but in the end it was the right call. It took time to build a good team around him but you have to start somewhere.

And to your comment that we'd by .400 without Tyson and Kidd, that's like saying MJ would never have won a title without Pippen and guys like Grant, Rodman, etc. Basically, you're saying Melo isn't the type of difference maker that you can win with no matter what the rest of the roster looks like. But who is? The only guy that you can make a case for is LeBron, and even he didn't do it until he was playing with Wade and Bosh.

What exactly are we arguing????

carmelo anthony doesn't make those around him better. elite players do. carmelo doesn't. if it weren't for kidd primarily the knicks would be struggling to cohere.

dk7th wrote:

MSG3 wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

MSG3 wrote:

tkf wrote:

MSG3 wrote:

tkf wrote:

fishmike wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:Putting people in position to succeed and covering there weaknesses = winning formula.
Putting people in position to fail and then bashing them for not overcoming all obsticales = losing/dysfunctional formula.

A lot of the knocks on Melo were legit at the same time he was slightly over criticized. The problem I had was the viewpoint that he would never get better or ever find success when over the yrs of watching basketball we have seen tons of players do so in the later parts of there careers.

this more than anything else.

Is Melo shooting better?
Is Melo rebounding more?
Is Melo getting more assists?
Is Melo getting more steals? FTS?

How do you quanity Melo doing anything better than he has done the reason of his career?

He's an star and he's playing like an all star. Team is better and winning more games because the team is better so they are winning more games.

Is Melo shooting better?

NO

Is Melo rebounding more?

NO

Is Melo getting more assists?

absolutely NOT..

Is Melo getting more steals? FTS?

NO

How do you quanity Melo doing anything better than he has done the reason of his career?

good post, but you must remember around here...

he is a Knick Fish, the heart wants to believe what the heart wants to believe...

again, I am more impressed with how kidd is playing than anything else...

Wow...you can't even do the work to compare his season stats to his career numbers? He's at his career averages for everything except 3pt FG% (up by 13) and assists (down by 1 because he's on the court with 2 point guards most of the time).

You obviously put on a show to get the board riled up. If not, it's beyond me how you or anyone else can't support Melo when he is doing everything ever asked of him.

OK, SO what are you talking about, fish was asking is he doing anything better.. overall, he isn't... the end bro..

Oh I see. You're saying his career numbers are bad. This means you have no basketball perspective whatsoever. The end bro...

You don't see any ground between "elite" and "bad"? Maybe you are the one who lacks perspective.

Of course I do! I commented the other day that if "Great" is MJ, Magic, Bird, etc, then Melo is not great. But to use his very good numbers and say they are not elite, thus the Knicks would be doing this without him, is BS. What this boils down to is people want Melo to be LeBron. That will never ever ever ever happen. Yes, we paid a hig price for Melo, but in the end it was the right call. It took time to build a good team around him but you have to start somewhere.

And to your comment that we'd by .400 without Tyson and Kidd, that's like saying MJ would never have won a title without Pippen and guys like Grant, Rodman, etc. Basically, you're saying Melo isn't the type of difference maker that you can win with no matter what the rest of the roster looks like. But who is? The only guy that you can make a case for is LeBron, and even he didn't do it until he was playing with Wade and Bosh.

What exactly are we arguing????

carmelo anthony doesn't make those around him better. elite players do. carmelo doesn't. if it weren't for kidd primarily the knicks would be struggling to cohere.

Are you saying Kidd is elite right now?

ChuckBuck wrote:

NUPE wrote:

gunsnewing wrote:and remember a lot of his rebounds comes off his own misses from point blank. He is not tall and athletic enough to play the 4 every night. Amare is not a great defender/rebounder but he is big and 9rebs out of the 4 with a block per game is better than 6rebs

I don't see how rebounding your own miss is any better or worse than rebounding someone else's miss. A rebound is rebound.

I see it as a gift. Not many players can anticipate their own miss that quickly and clear space like that. Moses and Barkley were in the same mold as far rebounding their own misses.

Right all 3 guys lacked athleticism and knew it so they know to follow up on their missed layups