ChuckBuck wrote:

3G4G wrote:

ChuckBuck wrote:

3G4G wrote:

ChuckBuck wrote:

3G4G wrote:

ChuckBuck wrote:

jrodmc wrote:

tkf wrote:

jrodmc wrote:

tkf wrote:

Swishfm3 wrote:

tkf wrote:

fishmike wrote:MElo is MElo... dude aint changing. You just hope doesnt shoot you out of the games come playoff times. Hopefully we get a 2009 ARod type performance so we can at least get one chip while this donkey is here.

Knicks were smart surrounding him with guys who defend and know how to win. Too bad we dont have some young guys along for the ride

+100

I dont think I will ever understand the obession some people have over rookies or "young talent".

http://espn.go.com/nba/player/_/id/3428/danilo-gallinari

http://espn.go.com/nba/player/_/id/3455/anthony-randolph

http://espn.go.com/nba/player/_/id/4299/jeremy-lin

http://espn.go.com/nba/player/_/id/4298/timofey-mozgov

http://espn.go.com/nba/player/_/id/3194/wilson-chandler

Not doing too hot...and if they were still here...I bet you guys would be bashing management to trade them for "star" player

won't you point out guys like kyrie irving, james harden, etc... you use the term rookies and Young talent and then you only post the guys we had.... kind of misleading.

with that said, the season is early and I expect all of those getting playing time to do well.. heck jeremey lin is doing very well not sure why you are knocking him...

the obsession is, when you are trying to build a winner, it starts with young talent and developing young talent.... period...at some point that is how you build... not sure with the obsession with old fading talent and bloated contracts...

Please see the Big Three in Boston. And their chip. And please, don't "Rondo" me. He wasn't counting as part of the Big Three back then when KG was first trying to channel Bill Russell.

And I suppose you'll counter with Paul Pierce was once a "young, developing talent."

rondo says hello...

And BTW.. why do we like shumpert? do you like him only because he is a knick? that seems to be the case around here....

We like Knicks. Isn't that why we like shumpert? If shumpert is on the IR in Charlotte, are you even talking about him? Do you even effing know who he is? We all like the Knicks; that's why we're here, and not over at ultimaterockets.com, right? Or am I missing something?

and BTW, Welcome to Revisionist History 101. Where what Rondo is now (compared to the quick aging of the Big 3) also counts for 2007. What put the Celtics over the top? his 10 ppg and 5 apg? On no, the Celtics are going nowhere in the playoffs without Rondo's extra ONE assist per game? Where have they gone since his star has risen dramatically?

Please. Weak. Please check the rest of the trade. Again. Let me know when anything changes, I'll be listening. Right now, all I can hear is less than middle of the road talent that we "gave away".

Exactly right.

Boston was all about the big 3 in their championship run of 2008. They won "despite" Rondo. He emerged from their shadow eventually, but haven't been able to win it all since.

So what you're saying is unless a team wins it all then there is valid reason to criticize players for not getting it done? Because Melo the past 2 playoff series on our team has played like trash with exception to a couple games?

Now what you're also doing is setting a cap on expectation from a player on another team despite the the fact his team has gone to the Finals another time since winning it all and to a ECF at least once.

When they made it to the Finals second time it went 7gms. One of their key players got hurt Game 5 blown out knee Perkins and Rondo had the numbers throughout the playoffs. You can't play anymore games after a Finals game 7 bro. A Game 7 where Kobe played like trash.... Lakers won in spite of him irregardless of how much someone wants to big up his rebounding numbers in game 7. You realize this right once another point which hurts your argument. It came down to Ron Artest and Gasol.

Before this Finals appearance Boston went the Semis 7gms and again Rondo averaged a triple across 2 series and guess what Garnett didn't play the whole playoffs

So what are you trying to say?

Boston's had a good run of it with and without Rondo as it's best player.

The end results were pretty obvious as to which players impacted the game more.

When KG/PP/RA were at or near their Big 3 prime, they won 66 games and ran the league. One of the greatest assembled teams in history.

Pretty much jump-started the 2 or more stars ERA, that every team is emulating now, Knicks included.

Now with Rondo as their "leader" and "best player", very good results but no where close to the '08 run.

I'm trying to say Rondo is no where the player Pierce was in '08. We're hoping Melo can be the 2012 Pierce of '08. So far he is.

Misleading logic

Dallas won 60 games 2005-2006 lost to the Heat in the Finals

Dallas won 57 games in 2010-2011 beat the Heat in the Finals

So by your Logic Tyson Chandler>>>>>>>>>>>>Dirk

What is misleading?

66 Wins and NBA Finals over the Lakers is pretty concrete. Just for perspective, only 10 teams won more than 66 games.

And just for effect, they had an improvement of 42 wins from the prior season, after the additions of KG and RA.

So yes, a Prime Pierce along with DPOY KG and all star Ray Allen, are better than top 3 PG Rajon Rondo's Celtics.

Thanks for playing though...

That team had other players such as Tony Allen/Perkins/James Posey and once again went to the Finals 2 yrs later all the way to a Game 7 with Garnett coming off MCL and Ray Allen having bone spur surgery. Why is that?

Rondo was supposed to take them to the Finals and win without Garnett the following year they won it?

This past year's playoffs which most agree Boston was not treated equal by the refs it was due to Rondo's magnificent series performance against them in ECF.

Okay then Melo will get us to the ECF or Finals without Amar'e. Melo will also give us more than 2yrs worth of contention correct?

I don't want to hear this crap about another player has to win it all as a lead dog in order to get props(when such players have proven to be a major factor as to why their team goes maybe not all the way but very close) but then hear excuses for our own as to why they've failed and still should be given props.

Boston's core was always good, as long as the Big 3 was there during the playoffs, they'll make it far. As they diminished, the Big 4 with Rondo, still pretty good, not as great as the Big 3 prime of '08. I'm not knocking Rondo, he's a very fine point guard, top 3 in fact.

Very rare will an elite point guard lead you to the promised land, Tony Parker and Chauncey Billups being some of the recent exceptions.

Usually it's a Big or Wing that'll lead the way. The Lebron's, Dirk's, Wade's, Kobe's, Pierce's etc. For every Lebron or Dirk, there is a Wade or Jason Terry/JJ Barea picking up the scoring slack. For every Bosh there is a Tyson Chandler doing the dirty work. Can Amare be that 2nd fiddle? Can Felton/Kidd/Prigioni keep the team balanced? The ingredients are in place. Role players know their roles, let's sit back and watch it happen...

You mentioned Tony Parker/Billups let's keep this list going....

Jason Kidd back-to-back Finals appearances

Isiah Thomas back-to-back Finals Victories

Gary Payton Finals appearance

John Stockton back-to-back Finals appearances

Magic Johnson multiple upon multiple upon multiple upon multiple Finals appearances and Victories

Russell Westbrook Finals appearance

And since this league has become even more point guard heavy odds say we're going to see more appearances from them in the Finals. Very rarely a small forward unless it's Lebron/Durant/Bird.....and look at the generation gap there. Whereas my list of point guards it's more fluid not as huge as generation gap.

GodSaveTheKnicks wrote:

ChuckBuck wrote:Very rare will an elite point guard lead you to the promised land, Tony Parker and Chauncey Billups being some of the recent exceptions.

Looking at the Finals MVP kind of "proves" but don't see the reason behind this. I would venture a guess that most, if not all, teams who make the finals feature fairly great PG play with the exception of Phil Jackson/Triangle teams.

It is a bit weird that the only champions of the last 2 decades where the PG was the best player were Isiah's Pistons, Magic's Lakers and maybe the heat if you label Lebron as a point forward. Dennis Johnson was also a pretty damn good PG on those Celtics teams.

I continue to believe only Robert Sarver's cheapness and dumb luck (Robert Horry cheap shot leading to suspension, Joe Johnson breaking his face) prevented Nash from winning at least 1 championship.

Nash's Suns possibly could've beat the Spurs, but they didn't follow the rules and got suspended, so they never got a chance and rightfully so. Didn't any of them ever watch Ewing and Knicks leave the bench in 1997 and get phucked?

Magic aside, I see the Bird, Jordan, Shaq, Duncan, Olajuwon, Kobe led teams that usually win it all. Traditionally, the star leading the charge is a "Big" or a "Wing" player.

Paul Pierce was never seen as a Championship type player. He could've easily just wasted away without a chip, as just another numbers scorer on so so teams. Now he is revered in Boston.

Melo is that fringe star, similiar to Pierce. He has alot of "toys" around him now. I don't see why he can't be our Paul Pierce.

ChuckBuck wrote:

3G4G wrote:

ChuckBuck wrote:

3G4G wrote:

ChuckBuck wrote:

3G4G wrote:

ChuckBuck wrote:

3G4G wrote:

ChuckBuck wrote:

jrodmc wrote:

tkf wrote:

jrodmc wrote:

tkf wrote:

Swishfm3 wrote:

tkf wrote:

fishmike wrote:MElo is MElo... dude aint changing. You just hope doesnt shoot you out of the games come playoff times. Hopefully we get a 2009 ARod type performance so we can at least get one chip while this donkey is here.

Knicks were smart surrounding him with guys who defend and know how to win. Too bad we dont have some young guys along for the ride

+100

I dont think I will ever understand the obession some people have over rookies or "young talent".

http://espn.go.com/nba/player/_/id/3428/danilo-gallinari

http://espn.go.com/nba/player/_/id/3455/anthony-randolph

http://espn.go.com/nba/player/_/id/4299/jeremy-lin

http://espn.go.com/nba/player/_/id/4298/timofey-mozgov

http://espn.go.com/nba/player/_/id/3194/wilson-chandler

Not doing too hot...and if they were still here...I bet you guys would be bashing management to trade them for "star" player

won't you point out guys like kyrie irving, james harden, etc... you use the term rookies and Young talent and then you only post the guys we had.... kind of misleading.

with that said, the season is early and I expect all of those getting playing time to do well.. heck jeremey lin is doing very well not sure why you are knocking him...

the obsession is, when you are trying to build a winner, it starts with young talent and developing young talent.... period...at some point that is how you build... not sure with the obsession with old fading talent and bloated contracts...

Please see the Big Three in Boston. And their chip. And please, don't "Rondo" me. He wasn't counting as part of the Big Three back then when KG was first trying to channel Bill Russell.

And I suppose you'll counter with Paul Pierce was once a "young, developing talent."

rondo says hello...

And BTW.. why do we like shumpert? do you like him only because he is a knick? that seems to be the case around here....

We like Knicks. Isn't that why we like shumpert? If shumpert is on the IR in Charlotte, are you even talking about him? Do you even effing know who he is? We all like the Knicks; that's why we're here, and not over at ultimaterockets.com, right? Or am I missing something?

and BTW, Welcome to Revisionist History 101. Where what Rondo is now (compared to the quick aging of the Big 3) also counts for 2007. What put the Celtics over the top? his 10 ppg and 5 apg? On no, the Celtics are going nowhere in the playoffs without Rondo's extra ONE assist per game? Where have they gone since his star has risen dramatically?

Please. Weak. Please check the rest of the trade. Again. Let me know when anything changes, I'll be listening. Right now, all I can hear is less than middle of the road talent that we "gave away".

Exactly right.

Boston was all about the big 3 in their championship run of 2008. They won "despite" Rondo. He emerged from their shadow eventually, but haven't been able to win it all since.

So what you're saying is unless a team wins it all then there is valid reason to criticize players for not getting it done? Because Melo the past 2 playoff series on our team has played like trash with exception to a couple games?

Now what you're also doing is setting a cap on expectation from a player on another team despite the the fact his team has gone to the Finals another time since winning it all and to a ECF at least once.

When they made it to the Finals second time it went 7gms. One of their key players got hurt Game 5 blown out knee Perkins and Rondo had the numbers throughout the playoffs. You can't play anymore games after a Finals game 7 bro. A Game 7 where Kobe played like trash.... Lakers won in spite of him irregardless of how much someone wants to big up his rebounding numbers in game 7. You realize this right once another point which hurts your argument. It came down to Ron Artest and Gasol.

Before this Finals appearance Boston went the Semis 7gms and again Rondo averaged a triple across 2 series and guess what Garnett didn't play the whole playoffs

So what are you trying to say?

Boston's had a good run of it with and without Rondo as it's best player.

The end results were pretty obvious as to which players impacted the game more.

When KG/PP/RA were at or near their Big 3 prime, they won 66 games and ran the league. One of the greatest assembled teams in history.

Pretty much jump-started the 2 or more stars ERA, that every team is emulating now, Knicks included.

Now with Rondo as their "leader" and "best player", very good results but no where close to the '08 run.

I'm trying to say Rondo is no where the player Pierce was in '08. We're hoping Melo can be the 2012 Pierce of '08. So far he is.

Misleading logic

Dallas won 60 games 2005-2006 lost to the Heat in the Finals

Dallas won 57 games in 2010-2011 beat the Heat in the Finals

So by your Logic Tyson Chandler>>>>>>>>>>>>Dirk

What is misleading?

66 Wins and NBA Finals over the Lakers is pretty concrete. Just for perspective, only 10 teams won more than 66 games.

And just for effect, they had an improvement of 42 wins from the prior season, after the additions of KG and RA.

So yes, a Prime Pierce along with DPOY KG and all star Ray Allen, are better than top 3 PG Rajon Rondo's Celtics.

Thanks for playing though...

That team had other players such as Tony Allen/Perkins/James Posey and once again went to the Finals 2 yrs later all the way to a Game 7 with Garnett coming off MCL and Ray Allen having bone spur surgery. Why is that?

Rondo was supposed to take them to the Finals and win without Garnett the following year they won it?

This past year's playoffs which most agree Boston was not treated equal by the refs it was due to Rondo's magnificent series performance against them in ECF.

Okay then Melo will get us to the ECF or Finals without Amar'e. Melo will also give us more than 2yrs worth of contention correct?

I don't want to hear this crap about another player has to win it all as a lead dog in order to get props(when such players have proven to be a major factor as to why their team goes maybe not all the way but very close) but then hear excuses for our own as to why they've failed and still should be given props.

Boston's core was always good, as long as the Big 3 was there during the playoffs, they'll make it far. As they diminished, the Big 4 with Rondo, still pretty good, not as great as the Big 3 prime of '08. I'm not knocking Rondo, he's a very fine point guard, top 3 in fact.

Very rare will an elite point guard lead you to the promised land, Tony Parker and Chauncey Billups being some of the recent exceptions.

Usually it's a Big or Wing that'll lead the way. The Lebron's, Dirk's, Wade's, Kobe's, Pierce's etc. For every Lebron or Dirk, there is a Wade or Jason Terry/JJ Barea picking up the scoring slack. For every Bosh there is a Tyson Chandler doing the dirty work. Can Amare be that 2nd fiddle? Can Felton/Kidd/Prigioni keep the team balanced? The ingredients are in place. Role players know their roles, let's sit back and watch it happen...

You mentioned Tony Parker/Billups let's keep this list going....

Jason Kidd back-to-back Finals appearances

Isiah Thomas back-to-back Finals Victories

Gary Payton Finals appearance

John Stockton back-to-back Finals appearances

Magic Johnson multiple upon multiple upon multiple upon multiple Finals appearances and Victories

Russell Westbrook Finals appearance

And since this league has become even more point guard heavy odds say we're going to see more appearances from them in the Finals. Very rarely a small forward unless it's Lebron/Durant/Bird.....and look at the generation gap there. Whereas my list of point guards it's more fluid not as huge as generation gap.

Lol now we're counting Finals appearances by point guards. Does Derek Harper, Chris Childs, or Charlie Ward make the pantheon of greats?

Traditionally, the lead player for Championship squads is a Big or Wing player:

Finals MVP
Lebron James, Miami
Dirk Nowitzki, Dallas
Kobe Bryant, Los Angeles
Kobe Bryant, Los Angeles
Paul Pierce, Boston
Tony Parker, San Antonio
Dwyane Wade, Miami Heat
Tim Duncan, San Antonio
Chauncey Billups, Detroit Pistons
Tim Duncan, San Antonio
Shaquille O'Neal, Los Angeles
Shaquille O'Neal, Los Angeles
Shaquille O'Neal, Los Angeles
Tim Duncan, San Antonio
Michael Jordan, Chicago
Michael Jordan, Chicago
Michael Jordan, Chicago
Hakeem Olajuwon, Houston
Hakeem Olajuwon, Houston
Michael Jordan, Chicago
Michael Jordan, Chicago
Michael Jordan, Chicago
Isiah Thomas, Detroit
Joe Dumars, Detroit
James Worthy, Los Angeles
Magic Johnson, Los Angeles
Larry Bird, Boston
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, Los Angeles
Larry Bird, Boston
Moses Malone, Philadelphia
Magic Johnson, Los Angeles
Cedric Maxwell, Boston
Magic Johnson, Los Angeles
Dennis Johnson, Seattle
Wes Unseld, Washington
Bill Walton, Portland
Jo Jo White, Boston
Rick Barry, Golden State
John Havlicek, Boston
Willis Reed, New York
Wilt Chamberlain, Los Angeles
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, Milwaukee
Willis Reed, New York
Jerry West, Los Angeles

So far, I've counted 6 Point Guards in 44 years that really carried their team all the way as the best player.

Sorry, but it's very likely that's a small forward or wing player will be the Finals MVP. I mean look at it historically:

West
Havlicek
Barry
Maxwell
Bird
Worthy
Dumars
Jordan
Wade
Pierce
Bryant
James

This year is no different. It could be Lebron, Durant, Carmelo, or maybe Dwight and Kobe get their act together.

A great Big or Wing win in the NBA.

ROTFLOL you said "lead you to the promise land" and now are revising it to being a Finals MVP.... which is ambiguous. You can be a Finals MVP and had less impact on a team throughout the season or even over the course of a Post-season. Getting to the Finals is a major accomplishment no matter how you want to diminish it. We know if Melo takes us there this year or next and gets swept in thrashing fashion he'll go down as Top 3 greatest Knick ever in these neck of the woods.

Like I said the league is point guard centric...... it is no longer a Big Man's game, Lebron plays the game like a freakin POINT GUARD.... so you better have a dominant little man or one who plays like one on your team as the league moves FORWARD.

3G4G wrote:Oh and another thing since you're trying to put Melo in that rarified Great Wing Champion caliber company...I counter and ask you

Go through NBA history and show me a team or teams who won NBA Championships being Top Heavy in hoisting up 3pt shots?

There's a first time for everything!!!

3G4G wrote:Oh and another thing since you're trying to put Melo in that rarified Great Wing Champion caliber company...I counter and ask you

Go through NBA history and show me a team or teams who won NBA Championships being Top Heavy in hoisting up 3pt shots?

Didn't Mike Miller of the Heat hit like seven 3s just by himself in the clincher?

Poor argument.

mrKnickShot wrote:What about MDA and PHX? I thought he was a shoe in for a ring if he just had a big man.

They didn't win a Championship and they never went to a Finals. You could say this for every team that never won.... "if they only had such and such or so an so"

3G4G wrote:

ChuckBuck wrote:

3G4G wrote:Oh and another thing since you're trying to put Melo in that rarified Great Wing Champion caliber company...I counter and ask you

Go through NBA history and show me a team or teams who won NBA Championships being Top Heavy in hoisting up 3pt shots?

Didn't Mike Miller of the Heat hit like seven 3s just by himself in the clincher?

Poor argument.

Mike Miller 2011-2012.....

games played
39 of 66

minutes played
19min/gm

So the Heat were Top Heavy on Mike Miller? So you vacuumed a 1 game performance? How is it you didn't vacuum Lebron's 45/15/5/3 against Boston Game 5? He wasn't the reason they won, it was because of Mike Miller 3s?

I didn't bring up the 3s argument, you did.

Every team shoots 3s, there's a 3 point line for a reason!

3G4G wrote:In other words there are pretty much no examples of teams relying on a 3 ball system to win a Championship

Thanks for playin

Lol you have no idea how Basketball works.

So Olajuwon just scores at will inside, double team or not? Dwight Howard just bullies his way to the basket when 3 guys are hanging on his arms and legs LOL.

There's a reason people space out when big men hit the post, when the double comes, kick it back to the open 3 pt shooter. If the shooter gets run out on, he reverses the ball. If not, repost the big.

Do I have to teach you everything? There's a 3 point line for a reason, some teams just have better shooters, some have dominant post men leading to open shots. Comprende.

3G4G wrote:In other words there are pretty much no examples of teams relying on a 3 ball system to win a Championship

Thanks for playin

You do realize the ball is first place into the post first right? if a team doubles or takes away the pnr, what do you want the knicks top do? just turn the ball over and throw it out of bounds?

The Knicks are doing what defenses give them, when there is no double Melo drives to the cup.