NUPE wrote:

GodSaveTheKnicks wrote:
Yeah I think Kobe was the first guy to start the Hakeem Olajuwon offseason thing.

I think it's fair to compare Kobe and Melo in that:

- ridiculous talent, can shoot and score down low too (obviously Kobe''s post game is more advanced but Melo is physically superior down low)

- they are often their own worst enemies. could probbaby use less 3s.
- they both could be elite defenders but take possessions off

Kobe is better at:

Long 2s: 36.9% Melo vs 41.4% Kobe. It's still dumb to me that Kobe takes more than 11 long 2s a game when he has frikkin Pau and Bynum but that's the Mamba for ya.

Both Kobe and Melo take way too many contested jumpers with defenders right on top of them. They need to drive more or post more. The only time a contested jumper is reasonable is when the defender is backed off you and giving it to you.

Melo actually has a great jump shot, however, the averages and numbers dont reveal this because he takes way too many contested jumpers. A player like Durant shoots far less contested jumpers which is why his fg% is so robust. I guess it helps to have Harden and Westbrook getting you several uncontested looks per game.

Yeah I feel you on the Harden/Westbrook thing. It's tough to use #s to talk about basketball because it is such a team game. If Melo was drafted by the Spurs and had Pop coaching him or if he had Nash his whole career his #s would look vastly different. His game would probably be vastly different.

I have high hopes for Melo this season. He's 28 years old and has been in the league since '03. He has a coach who he's on the same page with, who emphasizes D and holds players accountable without alienating them. It seems he's heard all the doubters and the critics and is eager to prove them wrong. Wade has 2 rings. Lebron has his first. Yes, it's organizations that win rings but you know Melo is hungry.

Vets all around. Bigs who can protect the rim. PGs who have experience and know their job is to feed him and Stat.

as the kids say "Le'go!"

Bonn1997 wrote:

GodSaveTheKnicks wrote:Melo's current 9 year career averages:

Over 36 minutes per game
24.7 PPG on 19.3 attempts = 1.28 pts per shot attempt
45.6 FG%
7.8 FT attempts per game.
2.6 3PT attempts 32.2%
3.1 assists to 3.0 TOs
6.3 rebounds

Pierce's first 9 seasons:

over 37 minutes per game
23.3 PPG 17.44 attempts = 1.33 pts per shot attempt
44% FG%
7.94 FT attempts per game
4.7 3PT attempts 36%
3.8 assists 3.0 TOs
5.27 rebounds

BTW Pierce years 10-14
19.34 Pts on 13.58 attempts = 1.42 Pts per attempt
46.66 FG%
6.04 FT attempts
4.06 3PT attempts 38.74%
3.8 assists to 2.56 TOs
5.14 rebounds

I'd like to see the higher FG% from Melo to go with his already superior rebounding #s. Would love to see him get better from downtown but would be happier with him increasing abusing dudes down low.

I might be biased here but I think Melo is WAY more gifted than Pierce. He should have been much more dominant than Pierce his first 9 seasons. I dunno if that's on Melo or George Karl. The hierarchy in the NBA should be

1. Lebron
2. Durant or Melo (yeah everyone's on Durant's nuts but he's not exactly a beast on D and Melo is better down low)

The only thing holding Melo back is himself.

I agree with everything you said. Part of the problem though is that Melo doesn't seem to understand the problem. When Melo talks about being a true teammate who might even being willing to share some shots and drop his scoring average to 23PPG, it drives me crazy. Paul Pierce has made a hall-of-fame career for himself averaging 18 or 19 PPG in the KG/Allen years. If Melo would aim for 19 PPG, 50% shooting, and 5 to 6 assists, I'd be ecstatic. I think that's basically what MDA tried to get him to do though.

Pierce had to go through a lot to get to where he is. Falling in the draft and then putting the league on notice his rookie season, getting stabbed, initial success followed by falling short in the playoffs with the Antoine Walker squads, multiple coaching changes, horrible losing seasons in a town where it's probably not pleasant to be the most highly paid player on THE Celtics when they're terrible. All of that created the hunger and desire to sacrifice. Dude played like a man possessed in that 1st championship run. I liked his game but never expected him to play up to the level of Lebron and Kobe. He hit some huge sack testing shots in both those series and made some monster defensive plays down the stretch on the guy considered to be the most athletic freak ever and the guy named by the hated MJ as the player he most respected.

Watching players get better and change and mature is one of the best things about being an NBA fan. Everything Melo is saying and doing this preseason points to him being poised for a step forward.

As long suffering Knicks fans we have to all be rooting for Melo to evolve like Pierce did and hopefully we get the same result. Same goes for Amare really. To me it makes no sense that Amare was running circles and jumping over everybody early in his career but can't use that quickness to stay in front of guys and leaping ability to protect the rim. HS player + playing under MDA (who i liked as a coach but is not exactly a defensive guru) probably didn't help.

GodSaveTheKnicks wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

GodSaveTheKnicks wrote:Melo's current 9 year career averages:

Over 36 minutes per game
24.7 PPG on 19.3 attempts = 1.28 pts per shot attempt
45.6 FG%
7.8 FT attempts per game.
2.6 3PT attempts 32.2%
3.1 assists to 3.0 TOs
6.3 rebounds

Pierce's first 9 seasons:

over 37 minutes per game
23.3 PPG 17.44 attempts = 1.33 pts per shot attempt
44% FG%
7.94 FT attempts per game
4.7 3PT attempts 36%
3.8 assists 3.0 TOs
5.27 rebounds

BTW Pierce years 10-14
19.34 Pts on 13.58 attempts = 1.42 Pts per attempt
46.66 FG%
6.04 FT attempts
4.06 3PT attempts 38.74%
3.8 assists to 2.56 TOs
5.14 rebounds

I'd like to see the higher FG% from Melo to go with his already superior rebounding #s. Would love to see him get better from downtown but would be happier with him increasing abusing dudes down low.

I might be biased here but I think Melo is WAY more gifted than Pierce. He should have been much more dominant than Pierce his first 9 seasons. I dunno if that's on Melo or George Karl. The hierarchy in the NBA should be

1. Lebron
2. Durant or Melo (yeah everyone's on Durant's nuts but he's not exactly a beast on D and Melo is better down low)

The only thing holding Melo back is himself.

I agree with everything you said. Part of the problem though is that Melo doesn't seem to understand the problem. When Melo talks about being a true teammate who might even being willing to share some shots and drop his scoring average to 23PPG, it drives me crazy. Paul Pierce has made a hall-of-fame career for himself averaging 18 or 19 PPG in the KG/Allen years. If Melo would aim for 19 PPG, 50% shooting, and 5 to 6 assists, I'd be ecstatic. I think that's basically what MDA tried to get him to do though.

Pierce had to go through a lot to get to where he is. Falling in the draft and then putting the league on notice his rookie season, getting stabbed, initial success followed by falling short in the playoffs with the Antoine Walker squads, multiple coaching changes, horrible losing seasons in a town where it's probably not pleasant to be the most highly paid player on THE Celtics when they're terrible. All of that created the hunger and desire to sacrifice. Dude played like a man possessed in that 1st championship run. I liked his game but never expected him to play up to the level of Lebron and Kobe. He hit some huge sack testing shots in both those series and made some monster defensive plays down the stretch on the guy considered to be the most athletic freak ever and the guy named by the hated MJ as the player he most respected.

Watching players get better and change and mature is one of the best things about being an NBA fan. Everything Melo is saying and doing this preseason points to him being poised for a step forward.

As long suffering Knicks fans we have to all be rooting for Melo to evolve like Pierce did and hopefully we get the same result. Same goes for Amare really. To me it makes no sense that Amare was running circles and jumping over everybody early in his career but can't use that quickness to stay in front of guys and leaping ability to protect the rim. HS player + playing under MDA (who i liked as a coach but is not exactly a defensive guru) probably didn't help.

IrishKnickFan wrote:

GodSaveTheKnicks wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

GodSaveTheKnicks wrote:Melo's current 9 year career averages:

Over 36 minutes per game
24.7 PPG on 19.3 attempts = 1.28 pts per shot attempt
45.6 FG%
7.8 FT attempts per game.
2.6 3PT attempts 32.2%
3.1 assists to 3.0 TOs
6.3 rebounds

Pierce's first 9 seasons:

over 37 minutes per game
23.3 PPG 17.44 attempts = 1.33 pts per shot attempt
44% FG%
7.94 FT attempts per game
4.7 3PT attempts 36%
3.8 assists 3.0 TOs
5.27 rebounds

BTW Pierce years 10-14
19.34 Pts on 13.58 attempts = 1.42 Pts per attempt
46.66 FG%
6.04 FT attempts
4.06 3PT attempts 38.74%
3.8 assists to 2.56 TOs
5.14 rebounds

I'd like to see the higher FG% from Melo to go with his already superior rebounding #s. Would love to see him get better from downtown but would be happier with him increasing abusing dudes down low.

I might be biased here but I think Melo is WAY more gifted than Pierce. He should have been much more dominant than Pierce his first 9 seasons. I dunno if that's on Melo or George Karl. The hierarchy in the NBA should be

1. Lebron
2. Durant or Melo (yeah everyone's on Durant's nuts but he's not exactly a beast on D and Melo is better down low)

The only thing holding Melo back is himself.

I agree with everything you said. Part of the problem though is that Melo doesn't seem to understand the problem. When Melo talks about being a true teammate who might even being willing to share some shots and drop his scoring average to 23PPG, it drives me crazy. Paul Pierce has made a hall-of-fame career for himself averaging 18 or 19 PPG in the KG/Allen years. If Melo would aim for 19 PPG, 50% shooting, and 5 to 6 assists, I'd be ecstatic. I think that's basically what MDA tried to get him to do though.

Pierce had to go through a lot to get to where he is. Falling in the draft and then putting the league on notice his rookie season, getting stabbed, initial success followed by falling short in the playoffs with the Antoine Walker squads, multiple coaching changes, horrible losing seasons in a town where it's probably not pleasant to be the most highly paid player on THE Celtics when they're terrible. All of that created the hunger and desire to sacrifice. Dude played like a man possessed in that 1st championship run. I liked his game but never expected him to play up to the level of Lebron and Kobe. He hit some huge sack testing shots in both those series and made some monster defensive plays down the stretch on the guy considered to be the most athletic freak ever and the guy named by the hated MJ as the player he most respected.

Watching players get better and change and mature is one of the best things about being an NBA fan. Everything Melo is saying and doing this preseason points to him being poised for a step forward.

As long suffering Knicks fans we have to all be rooting for Melo to evolve like Pierce did and hopefully we get the same result. Same goes for Amare really. To me it makes no sense that Amare was running circles and jumping over everybody early in his career but can't use that quickness to stay in front of guys and leaping ability to protect the rim. HS player + playing under MDA (who i liked as a coach but is not exactly a defensive guru) probably didn't help.

i am rooting for the knicks but in regards to pierce he also got lucky that the celtics basically got allen and garnett for nothing and also drafted rondo who turned out to be a star

I disagree, considering that Matrix also played many years under MDA and developed into one of the best defensive player in the NBA. Rookies and young players can use that excuse and blame others for their lack of preparation, but once a player establish himself, it’s on him, especially when he gets pay 100 million dollars to do it.

NUPE wrote:

GodSaveTheKnicks wrote:
Yeah I think Kobe was the first guy to start the Hakeem Olajuwon offseason thing.

I think it's fair to compare Kobe and Melo in that:

- ridiculous talent, can shoot and score down low too (obviously Kobe''s post game is more advanced but Melo is physically superior down low)

- they are often their own worst enemies. could probbaby use less 3s.
- they both could be elite defenders but take possessions off

Kobe is better at:

Long 2s: 36.9% Melo vs 41.4% Kobe. It's still dumb to me that Kobe takes more than 11 long 2s a game when he has frikkin Pau and Bynum but that's the Mamba for ya.

Both Kobe and Melo take way too many contested jumpers with defenders right on top of them. They need to drive more or post more. The only time a contested jumper is reasonable is when the defender is backed off you and giving it to you.

Melo actually has a great jump shot, however, the averages and numbers dont reveal this because he takes way too many contested jumpers. A player like Durant shoots far less contested jumpers which is why his fg% is so robust. I guess it helps to have Harden and Westbrook getting you several uncontested looks per game.

tkf wrote:

NUPE wrote:

GodSaveTheKnicks wrote:
Yeah I think Kobe was the first guy to start the Hakeem Olajuwon offseason thing.

I think it's fair to compare Kobe and Melo in that:

- ridiculous talent, can shoot and score down low too (obviously Kobe''s post game is more advanced but Melo is physically superior down low)

- they are often their own worst enemies. could probbaby use less 3s.
- they both could be elite defenders but take possessions off

Kobe is better at:

Long 2s: 36.9% Melo vs 41.4% Kobe. It's still dumb to me that Kobe takes more than 11 long 2s a game when he has frikkin Pau and Bynum but that's the Mamba for ya.

Both Kobe and Melo take way too many contested jumpers with defenders right on top of them. They need to drive more or post more. The only time a contested jumper is reasonable is when the defender is backed off you and giving it to you.

Melo actually has a great jump shot, however, the averages and numbers dont reveal this because he takes way too many contested jumpers. A player like Durant shoots far less contested jumpers which is why his fg% is so robust. I guess it helps to have Harden and Westbrook getting you several uncontested looks per game.

it also helps when you play less iso ball and work off the ball to get open looks.. at which point you won't need a westbrook or harden.. Toney douglas could make that kind of pass..

Yes, it is Melo's fault that Douglas has no pg skills AND Lin was a turnover machine who struggled to get the ball past halfcourt when teams actually cared to defend him.

There were stretches last season where Melo played off the ball, played point forward or played heavy iso. The difference is that when a Durant plays off the ball he had competent guards who could properly move the ball. When Melo played off the ball he had Landry fields and Toney Douglas basically sucking or Lin turning the ball over / struggling against pressure defense. You have a warped view of the most recent season, clearly.

As for Westbrook being a below average passer, he averages around 7 assists per game for his career which is pretty solid for a pg that also scores a ton.

NUPE wrote:

tkf wrote:

NUPE wrote:

GodSaveTheKnicks wrote:
Yeah I think Kobe was the first guy to start the Hakeem Olajuwon offseason thing.

I think it's fair to compare Kobe and Melo in that:

- ridiculous talent, can shoot and score down low too (obviously Kobe''s post game is more advanced but Melo is physically superior down low)

- they are often their own worst enemies. could probbaby use less 3s.
- they both could be elite defenders but take possessions off

Kobe is better at:

Long 2s: 36.9% Melo vs 41.4% Kobe. It's still dumb to me that Kobe takes more than 11 long 2s a game when he has frikkin Pau and Bynum but that's the Mamba for ya.

Both Kobe and Melo take way too many contested jumpers with defenders right on top of them. They need to drive more or post more. The only time a contested jumper is reasonable is when the defender is backed off you and giving it to you.

Melo actually has a great jump shot, however, the averages and numbers dont reveal this because he takes way too many contested jumpers. A player like Durant shoots far less contested jumpers which is why his fg% is so robust. I guess it helps to have Harden and Westbrook getting you several uncontested looks per game.

it also helps when you play less iso ball and work off the ball to get open looks.. at which point you won't need a westbrook or harden.. Toney douglas could make that kind of pass..

Yes, it is Melo's fault that Douglas has no pg skills AND Lin was a turnover machine who struggled to get the ball past halfcourt when teams actually cared to defend him.

There were stretches last season where Melo played off the ball, played point forward or played heavy iso. The difference is that when a Durant plays off the ball he had competent guards who could properly move the ball. When Melo played off the ball he had Landry fields and Toney Douglas basically sucking or Lin turning the ball over / struggling against pressure defense. You have a warped view of the most recent season, clearly.

As for Westbrook being a below average passer, he averages around 7 assists per game for his career which is pretty solid for a pg that also scores a ton.

you can't include lin in the same breath as fields and douglas. first off the miami smothering has left a lasting impression on everyone, but those that were okay to see lin go use it as virtually the only touchstone for lin. lin showed a LOT of promise and frankly he was worked way too hard, just as duhon was, and perhaps felton too. that is on d'antoni do a degree, because none of these guys is a freak conditioning guy like nash, let alone close to nash's level as a playmaker.

what tkf is saying is that any player in the half court should be able to recognize a teammate who is curling off a pick and hit him in rhythm. and of course that includes the point guard too. but you don't need to be a point guard to it a guy curling off a pick, come on.

IrishKnickFan wrote: Dude you have to stop getting mad at people. They arent hating on melo they're just maing valid points abotu what melo needs to improve on. We all want melo to be great because it will help teh team so you shouldnt interpret everything as hating on Melo

I am not even remotely mad.

tkf wrote:

NUPE wrote:

GodSaveTheKnicks wrote:
Yeah I think Kobe was the first guy to start the Hakeem Olajuwon offseason thing.

I think it's fair to compare Kobe and Melo in that:

- ridiculous talent, can shoot and score down low too (obviously Kobe''s post game is more advanced but Melo is physically superior down low)

- they are often their own worst enemies. could probbaby use less 3s.
- they both could be elite defenders but take possessions off

Kobe is better at:

Long 2s: 36.9% Melo vs 41.4% Kobe. It's still dumb to me that Kobe takes more than 11 long 2s a game when he has frikkin Pau and Bynum but that's the Mamba for ya.

Both Kobe and Melo take way too many contested jumpers with defenders right on top of them. They need to drive more or post more. The only time a contested jumper is reasonable is when the defender is backed off you and giving it to you.

Melo actually has a great jump shot, however, the averages and numbers dont reveal this because he takes way too many contested jumpers. A player like Durant shoots far less contested jumpers which is why his fg% is so robust. I guess it helps to have Harden and Westbrook getting you several uncontested looks per game.

it also helps when you play less iso ball and work off the ball to get open looks.. at which point you won't need a westbrook or harden.. Toney douglas could make that kind of pass..

working off the ball is a lost art in the NBA. I think other than specialists like Novak, marquee players who work off the ball are few and far between. You don't get props in today's basketball culture by being nasty coming off curls. Just for fun:

Allen Houston
Reggie Miller
Ray Allen
Rip Hamilton
Kobe Bryant (yes he can!)
Kevin Martin
Manu?

Everyone else wants to be MJ, AI, etc.

GodSaveTheKnicks wrote:

tkf wrote:

NUPE wrote:

GodSaveTheKnicks wrote:
Yeah I think Kobe was the first guy to start the Hakeem Olajuwon offseason thing.

I think it's fair to compare Kobe and Melo in that:

- ridiculous talent, can shoot and score down low too (obviously Kobe''s post game is more advanced but Melo is physically superior down low)

- they are often their own worst enemies. could probbaby use less 3s.
- they both could be elite defenders but take possessions off

Kobe is better at:

Long 2s: 36.9% Melo vs 41.4% Kobe. It's still dumb to me that Kobe takes more than 11 long 2s a game when he has frikkin Pau and Bynum but that's the Mamba for ya.

Both Kobe and Melo take way too many contested jumpers with defenders right on top of them. They need to drive more or post more. The only time a contested jumper is reasonable is when the defender is backed off you and giving it to you.

Melo actually has a great jump shot, however, the averages and numbers dont reveal this because he takes way too many contested jumpers. A player like Durant shoots far less contested jumpers which is why his fg% is so robust. I guess it helps to have Harden and Westbrook getting you several uncontested looks per game.

it also helps when you play less iso ball and work off the ball to get open looks.. at which point you won't need a westbrook or harden.. Toney douglas could make that kind of pass..

working off the ball is a lost art in the NBA. I think other than specialists like Novak, marquee players who work off the ball are few and far between. You don't get props in today's basketball culture by being nasty coming off curls. Just for fun:

Allen Houston
Reggie Miller
Ray Allen
Rip Hamilton
Kobe Bryant (yes he can!)
Kevin Martin
Manu?

Everyone else wants to be MJ, AI, etc.

this is a very good list my friend.. and when healthy all of those guys put fear in defenses... we saw first hand Allan Houston, Reggie miller was a killer, and just recently when we played the bulls last year, a somewhat beat up rip hamilton dominated us playing off curls.... kevin martin when healthy can just wreck a defense... LOL..

and there is room for iso play, but you better be great at it... MJ could play off the ball as well, but how could you argue with over 50% shooting when he iso's.. the same with Bernard king.... again, it is not for everyone... although most of todays players feel they are all great one on one players.. LOL

GodSaveTheKnicks wrote:

tkf wrote:

GodSaveTheKnicks wrote:

tkf wrote:

NUPE wrote:

GodSaveTheKnicks wrote:
Yeah I think Kobe was the first guy to start the Hakeem Olajuwon offseason thing.

I think it's fair to compare Kobe and Melo in that:

- ridiculous talent, can shoot and score down low too (obviously Kobe''s post game is more advanced but Melo is physically superior down low)

- they are often their own worst enemies. could probbaby use less 3s.
- they both could be elite defenders but take possessions off

Kobe is better at:

Long 2s: 36.9% Melo vs 41.4% Kobe. It's still dumb to me that Kobe takes more than 11 long 2s a game when he has frikkin Pau and Bynum but that's the Mamba for ya.

Both Kobe and Melo take way too many contested jumpers with defenders right on top of them. They need to drive more or post more. The only time a contested jumper is reasonable is when the defender is backed off you and giving it to you.

Melo actually has a great jump shot, however, the averages and numbers dont reveal this because he takes way too many contested jumpers. A player like Durant shoots far less contested jumpers which is why his fg% is so robust. I guess it helps to have Harden and Westbrook getting you several uncontested looks per game.

it also helps when you play less iso ball and work off the ball to get open looks.. at which point you won't need a westbrook or harden.. Toney douglas could make that kind of pass..

working off the ball is a lost art in the NBA. I think other than specialists like Novak, marquee players who work off the ball are few and far between. You don't get props in today's basketball culture by being nasty coming off curls. Just for fun:

Allen Houston
Reggie Miller
Ray Allen
Rip Hamilton
Kobe Bryant (yes he can!)
Kevin Martin
Manu?

Everyone else wants to be MJ, AI, etc.

this is a very good list my friend.. and when healthy all of those guys put fear in defenses... we saw first hand Allan Houston, Reggie miller was a killer, and just recently when we played the bulls last year, a somewhat beat up rip hamilton dominated us playing off curls.... kevin martin when healthy can just wreck a defense... LOL..

yeah. to be fair guys like houston, rip, miller aren't gonna succeed posting up. they didn't really have the athleticism or physique to have their teams clear out and go 1 on 1.

but i feel like it's a bigger headache for a defense to react to ray allen or rip coming off a screen and opens things up for their teammates vs. watching someone just try to beat their man off the dribble. it seems like a good defensive team will have an easier time dealing with one on one leading to a drive and kick type offense vs. dealing with movement off the ball and good passing.

so if you could get a guy who is nasty one on one but also smart in moving without the ball to get easy layups, open looks...

actually Houston did develop a deadly midrange game that included post ups.. look at that 50 point game he had vs the lakers some years ago... he did quite a bit posting up in that game.. Houston was a really good athlete... while in detroit it was said that he was as good an athlete as grant hill....

in this video(ignore the music it is corny...lol) you will see houston scoring in all types of ways.. off screens, curls, post ups.. and that move at the 1 minute mark of the video was sick..... that between the legs and behind the back on the on the break was nasty...