jrodmc wrote:

eViL wrote:

nixluva wrote:I said it from the start and the owners are just proving the point. They are full of crap! I personally don't care if they do a deal of 50/50 or a range of 50-53 as the players offered. It's just a load of crap to accept that the owners couldn't accept a deal at this point. The difference isn't significant enough to hold up the season.

For one thing they already have contracts guaranteed for next year that would exceed 50%! How would that work exactly? Why can't they roll the reduction in over time? So the owners are trying to force a 7% BRI reduction, shorter contracts, less for MLE, no Bird if over the cap... When u look at all of the things players already gave ground on it's clear who is negotiating in good faith. Twice now owners have put out ultimatums and preconditions to negotiating. Like the thread says Owners are full of crap!

i agree with you, but unfortunately, the owners will outlast the players. ewing, houston, LJ, spree, childs, ward, etc. -- all gone. but Dolan still remains. only way to hurt the owners is to never go back. we basically have to abandon the sport. that's our only option.

Which is quite telling when trying to figure out what pro basketball really is right now. The sport is basketball. Pro basketball is about a business and a league. It's obviously not about players playing the sport.

It sucks, but that's life.

i hear ya, as a Knicks fan, i don't understand how anyone is in support of the owners though. first of all, our owner is already down to get the season going. second, we're about to lose a prime year of two superstar players that we finally have after waiting patiently for two seasons. and third, the owners who are staunchly behind the lockout are taking every effort to prevent teams like the Knicks from having any more opportunities to improve.

it's not that i'm choosing the players over the owners. f@ck all of them. i'm choosing the Knicks over the rest of the league. if it were up to the Knicks, we'd be playing ball already.

eViL wrote:

i agree with you, but unfortunately, the owners will outlast the players. ewing, houston, LJ, spree, childs, ward, etc. -- all gone. but Dolan still remains. only way to hurt the owners is to never go back. we basically have to abandon the sport. that's our only option.

the thing is our owner is actually one of the good guys who wants to make a deal. What fans of other teams can do, if they find they can't give up on Basketball, is to simply figure out ways to enjoy it without paying- don't attend games, use free internet downloads etc.

eViL wrote:
yeah, this lockout has turned my opinion on Dolan. i like him now. at least he's trying to compete. i appreciate that. he pays. sure, he trusts the wrong people at times, but at least he's trying to compete.

I agree- though I also agree with what someone said on another site: when Dolan is the sole voice of reason in the room, you know your in trouble!

tkf wrote:

eViL wrote:

smackeddog wrote:

eViL wrote:

i agree with you, but unfortunately, the owners will outlast the players. ewing, houston, LJ, spree, childs, ward, etc. -- all gone. but Dolan still remains. only way to hurt the owners is to never go back. we basically have to abandon the sport. that's our only option.

the thing is our owner is actually one of the good guys who wants to make a deal. What fans of other teams can do, if they find they can't give up on Basketball, is to simply figure out ways to enjoy it without paying- don't attend games, use free internet downloads etc.

yeah, this lockout has turned my opinion on Dolan. i like him now. at least he's trying to compete. i appreciate that. he pays. sure, he trusts the wrong people at times, but at least he's trying to compete.

and if dolan was in a smaller market the knicks would be bankrupt and the players would be telling him to "make better decisions" Ie: don't pay us so much... But give us more.... LOL..... doesn't make sense.. dolan is not a bad guy, but he is an idiot and he can get away with it because he has deep pockets and is in a great market... how about the owners that do everything right and barely make a profit? what about them?

maybe their markets cannot sustain teams. not the Knicks' fault. not the players' fault.

why does Atlanta even have sports teams? no one goes to any games. it makes no sense. it has nothing to do with what players are getting paid. it's just not a good city for pro sports. oh well. move the Hawks out or contract them.

tkf wrote:

eViL wrote:

tkf wrote:

eViL wrote:

smackeddog wrote:

eViL wrote:

i agree with you, but unfortunately, the owners will outlast the players. ewing, houston, LJ, spree, childs, ward, etc. -- all gone. but Dolan still remains. only way to hurt the owners is to never go back. we basically have to abandon the sport. that's our only option.

the thing is our owner is actually one of the good guys who wants to make a deal. What fans of other teams can do, if they find they can't give up on Basketball, is to simply figure out ways to enjoy it without paying- don't attend games, use free internet downloads etc.

yeah, this lockout has turned my opinion on Dolan. i like him now. at least he's trying to compete. i appreciate that. he pays. sure, he trusts the wrong people at times, but at least he's trying to compete.

and if dolan was in a smaller market the knicks would be bankrupt and the players would be telling him to "make better decisions" Ie: don't pay us so much... But give us more.... LOL..... doesn't make sense.. dolan is not a bad guy, but he is an idiot and he can get away with it because he has deep pockets and is in a great market... how about the owners that do everything right and barely make a profit? what about them?

maybe their markets cannot sustain teams. not the Knicks' fault. not the players' fault.

why does Atlanta even have sports teams? no one goes to any games. it makes no sense. it has nothing to do with what players are getting paid. it's just not a good city for pro sports. oh well. move the Hawks out or contract them.

the thrashers left atlanta, I can see that... the Hawks attendance last year was just a shade under 16k a game, I would hardly call that a reason to contract the hawks..

Your right, they're not great but not contraction level either. However, why did they pay Joe Johnson all that money when he clearly wasn't enough of a star to guarantee a packed house? It would've been better to save money than to overspend on a player that is SUPER boring and doesn't put butts in seats. This is the problem with many franchises. OKC is a profitable team and they seems to be making smart decisions.

Atlanta has a great fan atmosphere, so the fans can't blame it on the facility. The thing to remember about ATL is that so many people have come into the city from somewhere else!!! That's one of the biggest issues. The population grew quite a bit based on the influx. What they need to do is look to corporate sales a bit more tho i'm sure they try. Also there are a ton of Music and TV celebrities in ATL that they could look to try and bring in like NY and LA do. I can't say that I really see a lot of stars in the front row in ATL. Maybe they do, but I can't say that I see it on the same level as other big cities. I bet if they had drafted CP3 like they should've they'd have fewer problems filling the stadium. That's the key to everything. If you pick the right players you can excite your fanbase.

eViL wrote:another big problem with the system is the way they base everything off of percentages of the cap. they lock players into MAX salaries and other percentage-based salary slots thinking that they are going to limit how much players make and how much it will cost to field good teams -- but what they achieve is a system where guys like Joe Johnson can demand max money because "hey, it's max money... you have to give me the max." what if there was no max? my guess is that guys like Wade and Lebron would see their salaries skyrocket and guys like Joe Johnson wouldn't make as much as they do now.

they need to open things up. lift the salary restrictions. award teams that lose players in free agency draft picks or more lottery balls or both. they need to go uncapped but have a scaled luxury tax system with revenue sharing. i'm all about changing the system. honestly, as much as it seems i am for the players and against the owners -- i'm not for or against either. i'm for the fans. and as a fan, i wanna see bball sooner than later. by all appearances, it's the small market owners holding it up right now. so that's who i am currently most pissed at.

You're right! The owners have been moving away from a more free market approach and all it's done is cause inflation. The Mediocre middle level players and lower tier All Stars like Joe Johnson get paid too much cuz as you say, if you set a max NO ONE will accept less than that even if they clearly aren't worth that much. The Wade and Lebron's of the NBA don't need caps. Just let them make what the owner wants to pay them, but then you could rightfully say that no Joe Johnson, you're not worth the same money Wade or Lebron got, cuz you're not on that level. Here's what I'm willing to pay you and then the free market would dictate the rest. He likely would not have received a max level amount if it was a free market. Likewise, so many players who got the full MLE may not have gotten that if they didn't set a max level on that. Once again you are proving what I've been saying is true. Stern and the owners have been coming up with all these ideas and changes in every CBA and none of it has worked!!!

Owners have overspent on talent that wasn't worth it! Years ago the top players would get the huge contracts and even if they BRI was at 57%, If you had a Jordan or Magic or Lebron, you'd be making money and could afford to pay them big dollars, but if your team hadn't drafted a superstar then you wouldn't be forced to overpay mediocre talent like now. That same 57% would be absorbed by winning and profitable teams and it would all make sense. They only lost money cuz too many bad teams were paying too much of the BRI and couldn't afford it. NY, CHI, OKC, MIA, BOS, LA have bigtime stars and make big profits. They make money outside of the BRI and can afford to pay. Everything would work out without the Max, Caps and MLE's. As for competitive balance an extra pick for losers would solve that. Losing teams would get more of the top young talent at a low price and grow their teams and revenue and thus be profitable one day also.

eViL wrote:another big problem with the system is the way they base everything off of percentages of the cap. they lock players into MAX salaries and other percentage-based salary slots thinking that they are going to limit how much players make and how much it will cost to field good teams -- but what they achieve is a system where guys like Joe Johnson can demand max money because "hey, it's max money... you have to give me the max." what if there was no max? my guess is that guys like Wade and Lebron would see their salaries skyrocket and guys like Joe Johnson wouldn't make as much as they do now.

they need to open things up. lift the salary restrictions. award teams that lose players in free agency draft picks or more lottery balls or both. they need to go uncapped but have a scaled luxury tax system with revenue sharing. i'm all about changing the system. honestly, as much as it seems i am for the players and against the owners -- i'm not for or against either. i'm for the fans. and as a fan, i wanna see bball sooner than later. by all appearances, it's the small market owners holding it up right now. so that's who i am currently most pissed at.

Pretty sure Joe Johnson would still get a lot of money. The NBA's problem is that 1 player can have a monumental effect on a team. Nothing they do is going to change that.

nixluva wrote:

tkf wrote:

eViL wrote:

tkf wrote:

eViL wrote:

smackeddog wrote:

eViL wrote:

i agree with you, but unfortunately, the owners will outlast the players. ewing, houston, LJ, spree, childs, ward, etc. -- all gone. but Dolan still remains. only way to hurt the owners is to never go back. we basically have to abandon the sport. that's our only option.

the thing is our owner is actually one of the good guys who wants to make a deal. What fans of other teams can do, if they find they can't give up on Basketball, is to simply figure out ways to enjoy it without paying- don't attend games, use free internet downloads etc.

yeah, this lockout has turned my opinion on Dolan. i like him now. at least he's trying to compete. i appreciate that. he pays. sure, he trusts the wrong people at times, but at least he's trying to compete.

and if dolan was in a smaller market the knicks would be bankrupt and the players would be telling him to "make better decisions" Ie: don't pay us so much... But give us more.... LOL..... doesn't make sense.. dolan is not a bad guy, but he is an idiot and he can get away with it because he has deep pockets and is in a great market... how about the owners that do everything right and barely make a profit? what about them?

maybe their markets cannot sustain teams. not the Knicks' fault. not the players' fault.

why does Atlanta even have sports teams? no one goes to any games. it makes no sense. it has nothing to do with what players are getting paid. it's just not a good city for pro sports. oh well. move the Hawks out or contract them.

the thrashers left atlanta, I can see that... the Hawks attendance last year was just a shade under 16k a game, I would hardly call that a reason to contract the hawks..

Your right, they're not great but not contraction level either. However, why did they pay Joe Johnson all that money when he clearly wasn't enough of a star to guarantee a packed house? It would've been better to save money than to overspend on a player that is SUPER boring and doesn't put butts in seats. This is the problem with many franchises. OKC is a profitable team and they seems to be making smart decisions.

Atlanta has a great fan atmosphere, so the fans can't blame it on the facility. The thing to remember about ATL is that so many people have come into the city from somewhere else!!! That's one of the biggest issues. The population grew quite a bit based on the influx. What they need to do is look to corporate sales a bit more tho i'm sure they try. Also there are a ton of Music and TV celebrities in ATL that they could look to try and bring in like NY and LA do. I can't say that I really see a lot of stars in the front row in ATL. Maybe they do, but I can't say that I see it on the same level as other big cities. I bet if they had drafted CP3 like they should've they'd have fewer problems filling the stadium. That's the key to everything. If you pick the right players you can excite your fanbase.

here is the thing, had they not resigned joe, they still would not have been under the cap enough to go get another quality player.. so they bit the bullet.. I don't agree, but Atlanta with joe is a playoff team, and that brings playoff dollars and gets fans in the seats.. believe me, I know a ton of Atlanta fans who hate joe, and hated the signing, but had the Hawks let joe go and missed the playoffs, fans would have been all over the hawks.. Let me tell you, these fans still hate pete babcock for trading Dominiqe wilkins.. LOL.. they HATE HIM.. I do admit, giving Joe that much money was ridiculous...

nixluva wrote:

tkf wrote:

nixluva wrote:

tkf wrote:

eViL wrote:

tkf wrote:

eViL wrote:

smackeddog wrote:

eViL wrote:

i agree with you, but unfortunately, the owners will outlast the players. ewing, houston, LJ, spree, childs, ward, etc. -- all gone. but Dolan still remains. only way to hurt the owners is to never go back. we basically have to abandon the sport. that's our only option.

the thing is our owner is actually one of the good guys who wants to make a deal. What fans of other teams can do, if they find they can't give up on Basketball, is to simply figure out ways to enjoy it without paying- don't attend games, use free internet downloads etc.

yeah, this lockout has turned my opinion on Dolan. i like him now. at least he's trying to compete. i appreciate that. he pays. sure, he trusts the wrong people at times, but at least he's trying to compete.

and if dolan was in a smaller market the knicks would be bankrupt and the players would be telling him to "make better decisions" Ie: don't pay us so much... But give us more.... LOL..... doesn't make sense.. dolan is not a bad guy, but he is an idiot and he can get away with it because he has deep pockets and is in a great market... how about the owners that do everything right and barely make a profit? what about them?

maybe their markets cannot sustain teams. not the Knicks' fault. not the players' fault.

why does Atlanta even have sports teams? no one goes to any games. it makes no sense. it has nothing to do with what players are getting paid. it's just not a good city for pro sports. oh well. move the Hawks out or contract them.

the thrashers left atlanta, I can see that... the Hawks attendance last year was just a shade under 16k a game, I would hardly call that a reason to contract the hawks..

Your right, they're not great but not contraction level either. However, why did they pay Joe Johnson all that money when he clearly wasn't enough of a star to guarantee a packed house? It would've been better to save money than to overspend on a player that is SUPER boring and doesn't put butts in seats. This is the problem with many franchises. OKC is a profitable team and they seems to be making smart decisions.

Atlanta has a great fan atmosphere, so the fans can't blame it on the facility. The thing to remember about ATL is that so many people have come into the city from somewhere else!!! That's one of the biggest issues. The population grew quite a bit based on the influx. What they need to do is look to corporate sales a bit more tho i'm sure they try. Also there are a ton of Music and TV celebrities in ATL that they could look to try and bring in like NY and LA do. I can't say that I really see a lot of stars in the front row in ATL. Maybe they do, but I can't say that I see it on the same level as other big cities. I bet if they had drafted CP3 like they should've they'd have fewer problems filling the stadium. That's the key to everything. If you pick the right players you can excite your fanbase.

here is the thing, had they not resigned joe, they still would not have been under the cap enough to go get another quality player.. so they bit the bullet.. I don't agree, but Atlanta with joe is a playoff team, and that brings playoff dollars and gets fans in the seats.. believe me, I know a ton of Atlanta fans who hate joe, and hated the signing, but had the Hawks let joe go and missed the playoffs, fans would have been all over the hawks.. Let me tell you, these fans still hate pete babcock for trading Dominiqe wilkins.. LOL.. they HATE HIM.. I do admit, giving Joe that much money was ridiculous...

I'm afraid I would have had to sell it to the fans that Joe just wasn't worth that much. That's an Allan Houston contract. The guy is already 29 and slowing down. Exactly what is Joe gonna be able to do to help them win in the years to come? They should've looked to do a sign and trade! That was the only real smart move for them.