One of the big reasons I would not get rid of Mike and staff is continuity. Every team needs it, both in terms of players and coaching and management; you can't repeatedly do a lot of either and expect a good outcome. And let's be honest, going into season 2012-13, the roster is going to be different again, with all likelihood that Melo, Amare and bit parts only remaining pieces.

holfresh wrote:

Bippity10 wrote:

Uptown wrote:So how did this thread go from trying to defend MDA to dumping on Melo and calling him Vince Carter again? Dont understand why guys feel a need to continously recant their hate for the trade and in every thread.

Why won't anyone answer Fish's questioin about what is wrong with being compared to vince or Agent 0? Fish isn't comparing him to today's Vince and Agent 0 who are a shadow of there former selves.

He is comparing them to the original Vince. The Vince that put up
27.5pts 6 reb 5 assists
24.5pts 5 reb 4 assists

Or the Gilbert Arenas pre injury that put up
29.3 points and 6 assists
28.4 points and 6 assists

Nothing wrong with that comparison. What do they all have in common? Great numbers. Leader of their teams. Battled hard in the playoffs. Haven't accomplished squat. Hopefully Carmelo doesn't break down like they have, and can actually get it done here. Until then, he still has something to prove and needs to earn the love of the Fishmikes and Bips of the world.

How many of the guys Fish is comparing Melo to has lead their teams to 4 consecutive 50+ win seasons?...You win 50 games in this league it means more than the stats next to your name...Better yet, has any of them ever lead a team to a 50 win season...

As a Top 5-10 player making 20 million a year. We are not paying him to lead this team to 50 wins. We are paying him to win playoff games. In his career he has been eliminated in the first round what 7 times? He's obviously going to have to improve on that. No? Or are we okay with 50 win seasons and first round eliminations? I believe it's been 7 of 8 years eliminated in the first round. He has earne my "like" in the games he has played here. But he has a ways to go, to earn my "love". Not going to do it by just putting up numbers and winning in the regular season.

franco12 wrote:Fish - I think you fire MDA because Melo is a volume shooter and MDA's systems is about volume shooting.

We need a coach that can reign in the volume shooting and get him to take smart shots.

And we need a coach that will get us to play defense.

Has MDA had a fair shot? Probably no.

But what we have seen, I think its fair to say, is that while he's been here, MDA's teams have been known to chuck.

We can argue about whether MDA has his 'Right' players- but any other coach would have simplified or altered his game plan to fit the players he had.

The more I think about it, the more I think MDA and Melo are a bad fit.

MDA's system isnt about volume, its about quality shots. The volume part only works if the quality part is there. Without shooters and skilled offensive players all your doing is losing 120-100 instead of 95-85. We saw this with Duhon and the first couple years of this.

SSOL is quality first, volume second. Simple philosophy. If our shots are better then yours the volume will ensure other factors dont override the outcome.

Like any system its as good as the players. When its Nash and Amare and a handfull of other skilled shooters and passers its good enough to compete for a title. When its Duhon and Lee its good enough to attend the lottery drawing.

Forget about being fair. Its sports. I have openly admitted my knocks on Melo may not be fair, but its sports. MDA has to deal with this also.

Here's my knock on your arguements:

We need a coach that can reign in the volume shooting and get him to take smart shots.

Who is going to do that for Melo? Dude's an all star, makes $20mm and has been in the NBA for 8 years and is regarded as a "star." What coach is going to come in here and tell him what he's been doing all this time is wrong, and he's not winning jack till it changes?

Melo strikes me as a good guy and a coachable player to an extent, but this has been working for him for a LONG time and the results have produced all star games and huge paychecks. Rick Adelman isnt changing that. Phil Jackson might (he's not coming here). Could Doc Rivers have that juice? Maybe now he could.... but not before Boston.

Your right.. I agree its a problem but I dont see a realistic solution.

We can argue about whether MDA has his 'Right' players- but any other coach would have simplified or altered his game plan to fit the players he had.

Didnt he? This hasnt been an SSOL team since the trade. Its been iso basketball.

The more I think about it, the more I think MDA and Melo are a bad fit.

Can you imagine what Melo would be like if he shot 48-50% I think if MDA could get through to him this is possible. I'm even going to say that IF Melo bought in he could be an MVP caliber player. A guy who gets 30ppg, 8rebs and 5 assists on a 55+ win team.

To me the bad fit is Billups, not Melo. Can (and will) Billups push the ball and run the P&R?

Thats my take.

I will finalize ALL my thoughts with this:

Not only should MDA NOT be fired but he and Melo need each other. Melo is a howitzer. MDA is a gunsmith. If MDA could get Melo to shoot straight you could be talking about a legendary coach/player combo.

I think next year will be too soon to compete for a title. We just have too many holes to fill and its going to take at least 2 years to really balance this roster and compete at an elite level,

BUT

We should be a 55 win team next year if the roster is healthy. We have an offensive coach and a roster with a ton of firepower.

If MDA cant get them to buy in and the Knicks do not have a top4 seed and do NOT advance to round 2 next year I 100% agree that MDA should be released and a new coach found.

Is that fair?

fishmike wrote:

Bippity10 wrote:

holfresh wrote:

Bippity10 wrote:

Uptown wrote:So how did this thread go from trying to defend MDA to dumping on Melo and calling him Vince Carter again? Dont understand why guys feel a need to continously recant their hate for the trade and in every thread.

Why won't anyone answer Fish's questioin about what is wrong with being compared to vince or Agent 0? Fish isn't comparing him to today's Vince and Agent 0 who are a shadow of there former selves.

He is comparing them to the original Vince. The Vince that put up
27.5pts 6 reb 5 assists
24.5pts 5 reb 4 assists

Or the Gilbert Arenas pre injury that put up
29.3 points and 6 assists
28.4 points and 6 assists

Nothing wrong with that comparison. What do they all have in common? Great numbers. Leader of their teams. Battled hard in the playoffs. Haven't accomplished squat. Hopefully Carmelo doesn't break down like they have, and can actually get it done here. Until then, he still has something to prove and needs to earn the love of the Fishmikes and Bips of the world.

How many of the guys Fish is comparing Melo to has lead their teams to 4 consecutive 50+ win seasons?...You win 50 games in this league it means more than the stats next to your name...Better yet, has any of them ever lead a team to a 50 win season...

As a Top 5-10 player making 20 million a year. We are not paying him to lead this team to 50 wins. We are paying him to win playoff games. In his career he has been eliminated in the first round what 7 times? He's obviously going to have to improve on that. No? Or are we okay with 50 win seasons and first round eliminations? I believe it's been 7 of 8 years eliminated in the first round. He has earne my "like" in the games he has played here. But he has a ways to go, to earn my "love". Not going to do it by just putting up numbers and winning in the regular season.

Its really that simple.

To me Melo is ARod (I'm a Yankee fan, season ticket holder for 12+ years). He's a star player. He puts up great numbers. He wins regular season games and has walk off homers and dramatic grandslams. Both players have had dopey moments but are good enough character guys. The guy's talent can not be denied. But the expectations are high because ARod (like Melo) is the highest paid player in the league and has the impressive stats etc

All that is nice but ARod had a lot to prove and when Oct came there was a lot more choking than hitting.

Melo has the same knock, and sorry to say has picked up right where he left off with the Knicks. Inconsistant effort, poor shooting and lots of losses.

Is that fair? probably not but thats sports. If Melo makes the 3 at the end of game one and beats Pierce in game 2 instead of getting duped by a smarter player into an offensive foul the Knicks probably win 2 games. I'm sure they still lose the series but there wouldnt be a single poster here knocking his post season performance, and this would be a GREAT first step in this new era.

BUT those shots didnt go in and he's left with another 0-4 post season and the same things keep dogging him. Poor shot selection, inconsistant effort on defense and more poor shot selection (or he just couldnt hit shots, take your pick).

Melo and Arob isn't comparable...Arob teams weren't winning when Arob was putting up spectacular numbers...They were all losing in Seattle where Griffy was really the man, and in Texas when he got there...When Arob came to the Yankees, the team was already established with stars and rings...The Yankees losing in the playoffs was more than Arob not stepping up...Baseball is so different, can't really be compared to hoops...One great player means so much more to a team success in basketball than it does in baseball...

Bippity10 wrote:

holfresh wrote:

Bippity10 wrote:

holfresh wrote:

Bippity10 wrote:

Uptown wrote:So how did this thread go from trying to defend MDA to dumping on Melo and calling him Vince Carter again? Dont understand why guys feel a need to continously recant their hate for the trade and in every thread.

Why won't anyone answer Fish's questioin about what is wrong with being compared to vince or Agent 0? Fish isn't comparing him to today's Vince and Agent 0 who are a shadow of there former selves.

He is comparing them to the original Vince. The Vince that put up
27.5pts 6 reb 5 assists
24.5pts 5 reb 4 assists

Or the Gilbert Arenas pre injury that put up
29.3 points and 6 assists
28.4 points and 6 assists

Nothing wrong with that comparison. What do they all have in common? Great numbers. Leader of their teams. Battled hard in the playoffs. Haven't accomplished squat. Hopefully Carmelo doesn't break down like they have, and can actually get it done here. Until then, he still has something to prove and needs to earn the love of the Fishmikes and Bips of the world.

How many of the guys Fish is comparing Melo to has lead their teams to 4 consecutive 50+ win seasons?...You win 50 games in this league it means more than the stats next to your name...Better yet, has any of them ever lead a team to a 50 win season...

As a Top 5-10 player making 20 million a year. We are not paying him to lead this team to 50 wins. We are paying him to win playoff games. In his career he has been eliminated in the first round what 7 times? He's obviously going to have to improve on that. No? Or are we okay with 50 win seasons and first round eliminations? I believe it's been 7 of 8 years eliminated in the first round. He has earne my "like" in the games he has played here. But he has a ways to go, to earn my "love". Not going to do it by just putting up numbers and winning in the regular season.

Well I was pointing out how he is different that Agent 0, Vince and TMac...Rarely does a player, who doesn't have multiply type all star players next to him advance deep into the playoffs, no matter who he is...I pointed this out in other threads by looking at Kobe's teams after SHAQ and before Gasol...Kobe's team didn't advance either or even won 50 games...Kobe is one of the greatest that ever played...In my opinion, hanging early eliminations on Melo mantle has more to do with team structure than Melo, himself...That was seen in these past playoffs with the Knicks..He hasn't however proven he can do it, Kobe has...We are paying him big bucks to get deep in the playoffs and hopefully bring home a few rings...It's up to Donnie now to find the right pieces so Melo could show us if it's money well spent...

I htink you are selling Vince and Agent 0 short. How quickly we forget how good those guys were in their prime. In my view Melo is better then both, but his results aren't. That's really all I care about. When Michael won his second run of titles he was no where close to the most athletic and had a 1/3 of his talent lopped off by age and time off. He still got it done. I agree that Melo hasn't had great teams but........If you want to call yourself a top 5 player YOU HAVE TO GET OUT OF THE FIRST ROUND. His teams were not that bad.

For this year Melo gets a pass. The C's were better. They were beating us even if we were healthy. But he's got his second star next to him and he has a dman good PG. You add one or two role players to this team and I fully expect Carmelo and Amare to turn this team into one of the better teams in the league. It's time to put the critics to rest. It's time to erase all doubt. That's the only way he is going to get his critics to love him.

Couldn't agree with you more...It's time for him to step up, no excuses...He wanted this stage...I hope he understand what it takes to get himself(off season prep) and his team to the next level...No team will ever be perfect for you to win it all...Just get the job done...

fishmike wrote:

holfresh wrote:

holfresh wrote:

Bippity10 wrote:

Uptown wrote:So how did this thread go from trying to defend MDA to dumping on Melo and calling him Vince Carter again? Dont understand why guys feel a need to continously recant their hate for the trade and in every thread.

Why won't anyone answer Fish's questioin about what is wrong with being compared to vince or Agent 0? Fish isn't comparing him to today's Vince and Agent 0 who are a shadow of there former selves.

He is comparing them to the original Vince. The Vince that put up
27.5pts 6 reb 5 assists
24.5pts 5 reb 4 assists

Or the Gilbert Arenas pre injury that put up
29.3 points and 6 assists
28.4 points and 6 assists

Nothing wrong with that comparison. What do they all have in common? Great numbers. Leader of their teams. Battled hard in the playoffs. Haven't accomplished squat. Hopefully Carmelo doesn't break down like they have, and can actually get it done here. Until then, he still has something to prove and needs to earn the love of the Fishmikes and Bips of the world.

I answered that in another thread..Will find it when I have time..

How many of the guys Fish is comparing Melo to has lead their teams to 4 consecutive 50+ win seasons?...You win 50 games in this league it means more than the stats next to your name...Better yet, has any of them ever lead a team to a 50 win season...

good call... what was the Sun's record in the 3-4 years prior to MDA? What was it after?

CrushAlot wrote:

fishmike wrote:

holfresh wrote:

holfresh wrote:

Bippity10 wrote:

Uptown wrote:So how did this thread go from trying to defend MDA to dumping on Melo and calling him Vince Carter again? Dont understand why guys feel a need to continously recant their hate for the trade and in every thread.

Why won't anyone answer Fish's questioin about what is wrong with being compared to vince or Agent 0? Fish isn't comparing him to today's Vince and Agent 0 who are a shadow of there former selves.

He is comparing them to the original Vince. The Vince that put up
27.5pts 6 reb 5 assists
24.5pts 5 reb 4 assists

Or the Gilbert Arenas pre injury that put up
29.3 points and 6 assists
28.4 points and 6 assists

Nothing wrong with that comparison. What do they all have in common? Great numbers. Leader of their teams. Battled hard in the playoffs. Haven't accomplished squat. Hopefully Carmelo doesn't break down like they have, and can actually get it done here. Until then, he still has something to prove and needs to earn the love of the Fishmikes and Bips of the world.

I answered that in another thread..Will find it when I have time..

How many of the guys Fish is comparing Melo to has lead their teams to 4 consecutive 50+ win seasons?...You win 50 games in this league it means more than the stats next to your name...Better yet, has any of them ever lead a team to a 50 win season...

good call... what was the Sun's record in the 3-4 years prior to MDA? What was it after?

The Suns were 21-40 in D'Antoni's first year. The next year Nash was added and that was when things changed.

CrushAlot wrote:The Suns were 21-40 in D'Antoni's first year. The next year Nash was added and that was when things changed.

nixluva wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

fishmike wrote:

holfresh wrote:

holfresh wrote:

Bippity10 wrote:

Uptown wrote:So how did this thread go from trying to defend MDA to dumping on Melo and calling him Vince Carter again? Dont understand why guys feel a need to continously recant their hate for the trade and in every thread.

Why won't anyone answer Fish's questioin about what is wrong with being compared to vince or Agent 0? Fish isn't comparing him to today's Vince and Agent 0 who are a shadow of there former selves.

He is comparing them to the original Vince. The Vince that put up
27.5pts 6 reb 5 assists
24.5pts 5 reb 4 assists

Or the Gilbert Arenas pre injury that put up
29.3 points and 6 assists
28.4 points and 6 assists

Nothing wrong with that comparison. What do they all have in common? Great numbers. Leader of their teams. Battled hard in the playoffs. Haven't accomplished squat. Hopefully Carmelo doesn't break down like they have, and can actually get it done here. Until then, he still has something to prove and needs to earn the love of the Fishmikes and Bips of the world.

I answered that in another thread..Will find it when I have time..

How many of the guys Fish is comparing Melo to has lead their teams to 4 consecutive 50+ win seasons?...You win 50 games in this league it means more than the stats next to your name...Better yet, has any of them ever lead a team to a 50 win season...

good call... what was the Sun's record in the 3-4 years prior to MDA? What was it after?

The Suns were 21-40 in D'Antoni's first year. The next year Nash was added and that was when things changed.

You realize that he only coached part of the season and that it was a young and incomplete team? The reason Mike got the job despite the overall record was because management saw progress with the young players under Mike. No team would keep an interim coach with a losing record if they didn't like what they saw.

We would. Gms too.arguments like he wasn't fired before or look at what Steve Nash did are far weaker than look at the last season. The team doesn't defend, etc.

One way to look at things is that Nash is a once in a generation floor general. Any average coach could have gone to the wcf with him flanked by 2 all stars. Some would have taken their teams further. What is Mda's record w/o Nash?