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New coach please
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Juice
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4/26/2011  12:36 PM
BlueSeats wrote:
martin wrote:
BlueSeats wrote:
martin wrote:
BlueSeats wrote:Truth be told, I think you're in knee-jerk defense mode anyway.

Blue, let's be clear, most every time I try to put an assessment out of MDA's teams and defense, I am referring to stats and trying to show his roster and coming to conclusions based on that.

in the examples above, your response has been both labeling and factually wrong.

those 4 years of League Average defense where the pinnacle of his career. He was Da Man in Phoenix and presumably largely responsible for that roster you rightly slight.

and you want to call my posts knee-jerk?

Hey, you can't even recall where you find your stats which turned out to be blatantly wrong, I try to put URLs and sources for each of mine.

You sidestepping your own doubts while rushing to his defense in every thread is quite a bit different than my one-time clerical error, no?

I haven't said 1 positive thing about MDA's defense. In fact in several threads I have called it horrible. I am, however, attaching some weak ass arguments, big diff, subtle but big.

You still think MDA was GM for a long enough period to shape the roster in PHO?

A coach doesn't have to hold the title of GM to help shape the roster, unless management is in radical disagreement with his style.

Once they were and started making changes philosophically the coach got real offended and left. Mgmt requested he demand more from Barbosa and Amar'e defensively and to slow their pace down. Why did it take so long for them to get a center a time period in which he had full control over. Matter of fact trading Rondo to the Celtics for what turned out to be nothing is telling.
AUTOADVERT
martin
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4/26/2011  12:39 PM
Juice wrote:
BlueSeats wrote:
martin wrote:
BlueSeats wrote:
martin wrote:
BlueSeats wrote:Truth be told, I think you're in knee-jerk defense mode anyway.

Blue, let's be clear, most every time I try to put an assessment out of MDA's teams and defense, I am referring to stats and trying to show his roster and coming to conclusions based on that.

in the examples above, your response has been both labeling and factually wrong.

those 4 years of League Average defense where the pinnacle of his career. He was Da Man in Phoenix and presumably largely responsible for that roster you rightly slight.

and you want to call my posts knee-jerk?

Hey, you can't even recall where you find your stats which turned out to be blatantly wrong, I try to put URLs and sources for each of mine.

You sidestepping your own doubts while rushing to his defense in every thread is quite a bit different than my one-time clerical error, no?

I haven't said 1 positive thing about MDA's defense. In fact in several threads I have called it horrible. I am, however, attaching some weak ass arguments, big diff, subtle but big.

You still think MDA was GM for a long enough period to shape the roster in PHO?

A coach doesn't have to hold the title of GM to help shape the roster, unless management is in radical disagreement with his style.

Once they were and started making changes philosophically the coach got real offended and left. Mgmt requested he demand more from Barbosa and Amar'e defensively and to slow their pace down. Why did it take so long for them to get a center a time period in which he had full control over. Matter of fact trading Rondo to the Celtics for what turned out to be nothing is telling.

owner traded picks for ca$h cause of money flow problems in organization. Same as why they trade Joe Johnson and trade players away to get under luxury tax threshold.

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nixluva
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4/26/2011  12:46 PM
Here's the thing. When the Knicks head to camp next year, they will already be a few steps ahead due to starting the year with both STAT and Melo. However, there MUST be upgrades made to 2 of the key spots right up the center of the floor. You can't have a team with no PG and no C!!! You will start every game with a giant hole right up the middle of your defense and offense. I don't care who you bring in to coach if the holes at PG and C remain the potential success of the team is limited. You can't just ignore those simple facts.

Now we could keep Billups and add another young PG to solidify the PG spot for now. Then we will have to spend as much as necessary to find a rugged C that can make it thru an 82 game season. Not an easy task given the cap limitations. However, that is the task. It would also be nice to add another real SG. At that point then we can really evaluate what we have in this coach. My guess is that this team makes the needed improvements and it's likely to be a top 4 team in the East.

Think about it. Any decent talent you add to this roster is gonna push it higher up the ladder in the East. Fix the hole at PG and that makes a certain tangible improvement. Fix the hole at C and that really boosts the team up into the list of legit contenders. Without doing a thing at the coaching position if you insert a rebounder/shotblocker into this roster it automatically changes the team from low playoff seed to top 4. It preserves Amar'e from having to take a pounding and stops teams from killing us on the boards and getting a ton of 2nd chance points. In truth we need more than one big but you get the idea. Any improvement at PG and SG would help us keep defenses honest. Think how much it would've helped if we had a PG that could get into the paint at will and create havoc? A SG that wasn't scared to shoot or drive at any moment? You think teams would have a hard time stopping STAT and Melo being preoccupied with those other threats on the floor? See didn't even have to do a thing at the coaching spot to make those huge improvements.
martin
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4/26/2011  12:50 PM
BlueSeats wrote:
martin wrote:
BlueSeats wrote:
martin wrote:I was referring to my first question to you: Can a team with no C's, Amare and Nash be a top 10 defensive team? What's their potential? I followed with the nudge of:
Care to put an assessment on the defensive capabilities of his squads?

Fair enough. From what I've seen with teams like Mia, Chi and OKC, who I wouldn't necessarily have expected to be so strong defensively, yes, from the right coach. And few coaches would prefer to maintain such a roster. Amare had to beg not to play C, only to ultimately be replaced by Frye, another guy one had no right to expect D from. These types of rosters with low defensive expectations are no coincidence.

Statistically, OKC has been middle of the pack defensively this year (perhaps a hint above that), about the same as PHO's best year. MIA didn't surprise me with 2 of the best defensive wings in the game and some semblance of interior D with Bosh and some bigs, although they are definitely better than expected (they struggle with teams with size as you might expect). CHI very good especially considering injuries, and their depth at bigs covered that up long enough.

I guess my question though was about PHO's squads and your assessment of those teams. Can a team with no C's, Amare and Nash be a top 10 defensive team? What's their potential?

I know that Amare didn't want to play C. But who was there to start in his place? Pat Burke?


If memory serves me (and you're welcome to fact check) OKC ranks 5th in defensive efficiency, a measure I thought you respected.

MDA got average defense from an average defensive squad. My expectation is that under him we too will be an average defensive squad playing average defense, and it will bite us.

BTW, I think you put about as much effort into that thought and answer as MDA has with team defense this past year - I picked up on the "4 years of League Average defense" phrase a couple of posts ago. I expected better with both.

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BlueSeats
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4/26/2011  12:56 PM
martin wrote:
BlueSeats wrote:
martin wrote:
BlueSeats wrote:
martin wrote:I was referring to my first question to you: Can a team with no C's, Amare and Nash be a top 10 defensive team? What's their potential? I followed with the nudge of:
Care to put an assessment on the defensive capabilities of his squads?

Fair enough. From what I've seen with teams like Mia, Chi and OKC, who I wouldn't necessarily have expected to be so strong defensively, yes, from the right coach. And few coaches would prefer to maintain such a roster. Amare had to beg not to play C, only to ultimately be replaced by Frye, another guy one had no right to expect D from. These types of rosters with low defensive expectations are no coincidence.

Statistically, OKC has been middle of the pack defensively this year (perhaps a hint above that), about the same as PHO's best year. MIA didn't surprise me with 2 of the best defensive wings in the game and some semblance of interior D with Bosh and some bigs, although they are definitely better than expected (they struggle with teams with size as you might expect). CHI very good especially considering injuries, and their depth at bigs covered that up long enough.

I guess my question though was about PHO's squads and your assessment of those teams. Can a team with no C's, Amare and Nash be a top 10 defensive team? What's their potential?

I know that Amare didn't want to play C. But who was there to start in his place? Pat Burke?


If memory serves me (and you're welcome to fact check) OKC ranks 5th in defensive efficiency, a measure I thought you respected.

MDA got average defense from an average defensive squad. My expectation is that under him we too will be an average defensive squad playing average defense, and it will bite us.

This is where I got the def eff numbers from, OKC #13 in league:

http://espn.go.com/nba/hollinger/teamstats/_/sort/defensiveEff/order/false
http://hoopdata.com/teamff.aspx

So my confidence in MDA getting some defense out of his team? Obviously tempered and low, as I give him until next mid season to show us a team that can perform. He has obviously not shown us that he can this year - I don't put too much into the first 2 years, that was just a hot mess of Donnie cleaning up Isiah's crap, and for the most part MDA was just a stand-in. (could he have done differently with the squad? sure, but to what end? only TD remained).

When you start the year with AR, Moz, Turiaf, Amare, Felton, Chandler, TD, Gallo, Buke, Mason... that roster has the potential of bigs, interior play and ball pressure. MDA obviously didn't play AR and Moz the right way and it was a cluster**** from the get-go. The team did start to turn around and was beginning to meet expectations by all-star break... and then roster shake-up. Again.

First 2 games against Boston surprised me. Fluke? Things to come? They eventually succumbed to be a DLeague-like roster headed by Melo. Shit happens.

Would I fire a coach after 1 year? No, and that's the angle I generally take.

So although my confidence in MDA being able to play a decent defensive team is low, I am also not saying that he can't because I am constantly throwing opportunity and expectations into the bag. What did Doc River do before the trade for KG and Ray? About the same as MDA has to this point. And I would have given him about the same assessment.


Martin, good post. I gotta get back to work so I'm gonna let it stand at that for now. However, I did want to establish that I'm not just pulling stats from thin air. I don't know which eff stat is more meaningful, but OKC is ranked 5th by this one:

http://www.hoopsstats.com/basketball/fantasy/nba/teamstats/11/1/diffeff

Later..
BlueSeats
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4/26/2011  12:58 PM
martin wrote:
BlueSeats wrote:
martin wrote:
BlueSeats wrote:
martin wrote:I was referring to my first question to you: Can a team with no C's, Amare and Nash be a top 10 defensive team? What's their potential? I followed with the nudge of:
Care to put an assessment on the defensive capabilities of his squads?

Fair enough. From what I've seen with teams like Mia, Chi and OKC, who I wouldn't necessarily have expected to be so strong defensively, yes, from the right coach. And few coaches would prefer to maintain such a roster. Amare had to beg not to play C, only to ultimately be replaced by Frye, another guy one had no right to expect D from. These types of rosters with low defensive expectations are no coincidence.

Statistically, OKC has been middle of the pack defensively this year (perhaps a hint above that), about the same as PHO's best year. MIA didn't surprise me with 2 of the best defensive wings in the game and some semblance of interior D with Bosh and some bigs, although they are definitely better than expected (they struggle with teams with size as you might expect). CHI very good especially considering injuries, and their depth at bigs covered that up long enough.

I guess my question though was about PHO's squads and your assessment of those teams. Can a team with no C's, Amare and Nash be a top 10 defensive team? What's their potential?

I know that Amare didn't want to play C. But who was there to start in his place? Pat Burke?


If memory serves me (and you're welcome to fact check) OKC ranks 5th in defensive efficiency, a measure I thought you respected.

MDA got average defense from an average defensive squad. My expectation is that under him we too will be an average defensive squad playing average defense, and it will bite us.

BTW, I think you put about as much effort into that thought and answer as MDA has with team defense this past year - I picked up on the "4 years of League Average defense" phrase a couple of posts ago. I expected better with both.

What?

Ah never mind, I gots works to dos.
BlueSeats
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4/26/2011  12:59 PM
SupremeCommander wrote:"It's going to take a toughness, and we sometimes don't have it," D'Antoni said. "Maybe that's because the last three years, we haven't had it because we didn't need it..."


Oh boy.
martin
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4/26/2011  1:03 PM
BlueSeats wrote: I don't know which eff stat is more meaningful, but OKC is ranked 5th by this one:

http://www.hoopsstats.com/basketball/fantasy/nba/teamstats/11/1/diffeff

can I convince you to utterly disregard that site for efficiency?

The 2 links I showed you seem to be more dependable and is a baseline for efficiency of scoring point and giving up points; your site includes other stuff that doesn't make sense for that particular equation (rebound, steals, blocks). It's a different statistic... pretty sure you can't even explain what it is showing.

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Juice
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4/26/2011  1:06 PM    LAST EDITED: 4/26/2011  1:08 PM
martin wrote:
Juice wrote:
BlueSeats wrote:
martin wrote:
BlueSeats wrote:
martin wrote:
BlueSeats wrote:Truth be told, I think you're in knee-jerk defense mode anyway.

Blue, let's be clear, most every time I try to put an assessment out of MDA's teams and defense, I am referring to stats and trying to show his roster and coming to conclusions based on that.

in the examples above, your response has been both labeling and factually wrong.

those 4 years of League Average defense where the pinnacle of his career. He was Da Man in Phoenix and presumably largely responsible for that roster you rightly slight.

and you want to call my posts knee-jerk?

Hey, you can't even recall where you find your stats which turned out to be blatantly wrong, I try to put URLs and sources for each of mine.

You sidestepping your own doubts while rushing to his defense in every thread is quite a bit different than my one-time clerical error, no?

I haven't said 1 positive thing about MDA's defense. In fact in several threads I have called it horrible. I am, however, attaching some weak ass arguments, big diff, subtle but big.

You still think MDA was GM for a long enough period to shape the roster in PHO?

A coach doesn't have to hold the title of GM to help shape the roster, unless management is in radical disagreement with his style.

Once they were and started making changes philosophically the coach got real offended and left. Mgmt requested he demand more from Barbosa and Amar'e defensively and to slow their pace down. Why did it take so long for them to get a center a time period in which he had full control over. Matter of fact trading Rondo to the Celtics for what turned out to be nothing is telling.

owner traded picks for ca$h cause of money flow problems in organization. Same as why they trade Joe Johnson and trade players away to get under luxury tax threshold.

They were going to match Johnson's offer he was offered 4yrs/$50mil extension and turned it down. They then gave him a final offer of 6yrs/$60mil he told them do not match ATL's $71mil offer as they were prepared to frontload.

They gave Diaw and Barbosa extensions after trading away Rondo sorry the cost cutting reasoning doesn't quite fly. D'Antoni and the brain trust didn't value picks overall. This is the same group who traded their lottery pick(Deng I believe) for little return and gave OKC picks(1rst rounders) in exchange for Kurt Thomas traded Q-Rich and pick(Nate) to us for Kurt Thomas.

More evidence of them simply not valuing picks probably because they knew their coach and his voice within the org. D'Antoni specifically said Rondo was traded because he didn't see where he could find minutes for him at point guard.

Okay trade the pick for a couple second round picks non guaranteed low salary and draft some bigs(Ryan Hollins/Paul Milsap) or defer to the next draft same round(Marc Gasol/Aaron Gray/Glen Davis) depending on what picks they got from the Celtics/Blazers/Pups
BlueSeats
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4/26/2011  1:07 PM
martin wrote:
BlueSeats wrote: I don't know which eff stat is more meaningful, but OKC is ranked 5th by this one:

http://www.hoopsstats.com/basketball/fantasy/nba/teamstats/11/1/diffeff

can I convince you to utterly disregard that site for efficiency?

The 2 links I showed you seem to be more dependable and is a baseline for efficiency of scoring point and giving up points; your site includes other stuff that doesn't make sense for that particular equation (rebound, steals, blocks). It's a different statistic... pretty sure you can't even explain what it is showing.

You're damn right I can't, but someone who knows more about it than I do wrote it because they find it meaningful.

Anyway, not here to expound the merits of one over another, just linking proof of it's existence.
Nalod
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4/26/2011  1:09 PM
PHX changed owners from Papa Collangello to Sarver. Papa always had final say. Recall he was wanted here as a Savior gm. This is the guy who owned the team who hired MDA. His son became GM.

Sarver bought in Kerr who did not like SSOL and demanded MDA slow it down and MDA said (Nalod interpretation): "phuch that muthaphuching noice and get me outta here!". He knew it was time to leave and a bigger pay day to follow.

Kerr with basically same roster hires Terry Porter and players didn't like that and it showed. Year later they back to SSOL.

Team has declined but is sort of rebuilding. Gortat is the perfect mid price center for the system and would be great here. MOzzY was pretty good. LIke to get him back.

So there is the short history of MDA and his Sun departure.

Billups already said he wants to lose some weight and run his ass off next year.

Two reasons: 14mil and he knows SSOL works but you gotta have the legs for it.
BlueSeats
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4/26/2011  1:09 PM
BlueSeats wrote:
martin wrote:
BlueSeats wrote: I don't know which eff stat is more meaningful, but OKC is ranked 5th by this one:

http://www.hoopsstats.com/basketball/fantasy/nba/teamstats/11/1/diffeff

can I convince you to utterly disregard that site for efficiency?

The 2 links I showed you seem to be more dependable and is a baseline for efficiency of scoring point and giving up points; your site includes other stuff that doesn't make sense for that particular equation (rebound, steals, blocks). It's a different statistic... pretty sure you can't even explain what it is showing.

You're damn right I can't, but someone who knows more about it than I do wrote it because they find it meaningful.

Anyway, not here to expound the merits of one over another, just linking proof of it's existence.

Wait, since when isn't rebounds, steals and blocks relevant to defense?
BlueSeats
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4/26/2011  1:12 PM
Kerr was not a good fit for Phoenix, he won 5 rings under two legendary coaches on two of the most dominant defensive teams of his era.
Juice
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4/26/2011  1:18 PM    LAST EDITED: 4/26/2011  1:28 PM
BlueSeats wrote:Kerr was not a good fit for Phoenix, he won 5 rings under two legendary coaches on two of the most dominant defensive teams of his era.

Porter played for some hard nose defensive playoff teams too in the Blazers. Amar'e quit on him almost immediately and Nash had to get jokes in on the sneak. Amar'e missed like 30gms with a torn retina too, so who's to say how they could have faired without the resistance and injury.
Vmart
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4/26/2011  1:45 PM
MDA needs to go for the simple reason he would rather play Jared Jefferies instead of Anthony Randolph. I have said this before that MDA has an aversion to play legit centers and so far he has proven that. I have a few candidates that I would take over MDA right now. Knicks will be better for moving on from MDA he doesn't know how to coach talent and he has a Dog house that young player never recover from and usually are rewarded by getting moved to another team.
martin
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4/26/2011  2:00 PM
Vmart wrote:MDA needs to go for the simple reason he would rather play Jared Jefferies instead of Anthony Randolph. I have said this before that MDA has an aversion to play legit centers and so far he has proven that. I have a few candidates that I would take over MDA right now. Knicks will be better for moving on from MDA he doesn't know how to coach talent and he has a Dog house that young player never recover from and usually are rewarded by getting moved to another team.

what legit centers didn't he play?

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martin
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4/26/2011  2:09 PM
BlueSeats wrote:
BlueSeats wrote:
martin wrote:
BlueSeats wrote: I don't know which eff stat is more meaningful, but OKC is ranked 5th by this one:

http://www.hoopsstats.com/basketball/fantasy/nba/teamstats/11/1/diffeff

can I convince you to utterly disregard that site for efficiency?

The 2 links I showed you seem to be more dependable and is a baseline for efficiency of scoring point and giving up points; your site includes other stuff that doesn't make sense for that particular equation (rebound, steals, blocks). It's a different statistic... pretty sure you can't even explain what it is showing.

You're damn right I can't, but someone who knows more about it than I do wrote it because they find it meaningful.

Anyway, not here to expound the merits of one over another, just linking proof of it's existence.

Wait, since when isn't rebounds, steals and blocks relevant to defense?

note that I said doesn't make sense, it's not relevant to add them in when calculating raw efficiency stats (points per 100 possessions), that's the baseline measurement; it's double counting when putting the numbers together.

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Vmart
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4/26/2011  2:34 PM
martin wrote:
Vmart wrote:MDA needs to go for the simple reason he would rather play Jared Jefferies instead of Anthony Randolph. I have said this before that MDA has an aversion to play legit centers and so far he has proven that. I have a few candidates that I would take over MDA right now. Knicks will be better for moving on from MDA he doesn't know how to coach talent and he has a Dog house that young player never recover from and usually are rewarded by getting moved to another team.

what legit centers didn't he play?

Somewhere in your own question lies the answer. MDA system relys on mismatches and that means playing a pf at center position, Is it any wonder that there have been no centers in an MDA system. It is not a center oriented system.
martin
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4/26/2011  2:45 PM
Vmart wrote:
martin wrote:
Vmart wrote:MDA needs to go for the simple reason he would rather play Jared Jefferies instead of Anthony Randolph. I have said this before that MDA has an aversion to play legit centers and so far he has proven that. I have a few candidates that I would take over MDA right now. Knicks will be better for moving on from MDA he doesn't know how to coach talent and he has a Dog house that young player never recover from and usually are rewarded by getting moved to another team.

what legit centers didn't he play?

Somewhere in your own question lies the answer. MDA system relys on mismatches and that means playing a pf at center position, Is it any wonder that there have been no centers in an MDA system. It is not a center oriented system.

wait, that's a completely different statement. You said aversion, as if there were centers he left on the bench to play a PF at C.

Who are the centers?

And do you mean to say that if Nene or DH or Moz were on the roster this past year he would sit them completely?

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Vmart
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4/26/2011  3:13 PM
martin wrote:
Vmart wrote:
martin wrote:
Vmart wrote:MDA needs to go for the simple reason he would rather play Jared Jefferies instead of Anthony Randolph. I have said this before that MDA has an aversion to play legit centers and so far he has proven that. I have a few candidates that I would take over MDA right now. Knicks will be better for moving on from MDA he doesn't know how to coach talent and he has a Dog house that young player never recover from and usually are rewarded by getting moved to another team.

what legit centers didn't he play?

Somewhere in your own question lies the answer. MDA system relys on mismatches and that means playing a pf at center position, Is it any wonder that there have been no centers in an MDA system. It is not a center oriented system.

wait, that's a completely different statement. You said aversion, as if there were centers he left on the bench to play a PF at C.

Who are the centers?

And do you mean to say that if Nene or DH or Moz were on the roster this past year he would sit them completely?

I'm sure he would find fault with them.
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