crzymdups wrote:The Knicks can spend the next two drafts building another young nucleus... the difference is that nucleus will be the supporting cast for STAT and Melo and Billups.

Getting better via the draft? Well, good thing we've got Isiah back in the fold then!

I kid, I kid... I hope!

Tonight I saved the pre-Melo trade roster in NBA 2K11 in case I get nostalgic for the yoots.

crzymdups wrote:

Paladin55 wrote:
Hard to believe that some folks are not understanding this. With the uncertainty of the new CBA and potential incentives for players to remain with their original teams, we are facing a period of time where the Knicks will be an entertaining, but ultimately unsatisfying team which will never get over the hump.

... but we WILL have two perennial all-stars to gloat about and serve as consolation for being knocked out in the second round.

If we're entering a time where there are more incentives for players to stay with their original team... doesn't that mean it was a good time to get Melo now?

Guys like Felton and Wilson are replaceable. Gallo is a tough loss... but Melo is his replacement and Melo is far more consistent and reliable and hard to defend.

The Knicks can spend the next two drafts building another young nucleus... the difference is that nucleus will be the supporting cast for STAT and Melo and Billups.

Our fate will depend on two one-dimensional players with similar games, and we will not have the ability to add much to the team because of the $40M/yr. we have to pay them. Everything came down to the fact that Melo was afraid to wait and become a FA under the same new CBA which will probably hamstring the Knicks in the future.

I made a post earlier in the day about the fact that no championship caliber team has ever been led by 2 single-dimensional (all offense/little defense) "stars," and from what I saw, nobody was able to show me a team where this did happen.

Amare and Melo are second tier stars, and are not, in fact, "superstars." We will be fun to watch, but as long as Amare and Melo are the two best guys on the team we're not going to win a title, and probably not even reach a final, either.

Paladin55 wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

Paladin55 wrote:
Hard to believe that some folks are not understanding this. With the uncertainty of the new CBA and potential incentives for players to remain with their original teams, we are facing a period of time where the Knicks will be an entertaining, but ultimately unsatisfying team which will never get over the hump.

... but we WILL have two perennial all-stars to gloat about and serve as consolation for being knocked out in the second round.

If we're entering a time where there are more incentives for players to stay with their original team... doesn't that mean it was a good time to get Melo now?

Guys like Felton and Wilson are replaceable. Gallo is a tough loss... but Melo is his replacement and Melo is far more consistent and reliable and hard to defend.

The Knicks can spend the next two drafts building another young nucleus... the difference is that nucleus will be the supporting cast for STAT and Melo and Billups.

Our fate will depend on two one-dimensional players with similar games, and we will not have the ability to add much to the team because of the $40M/yr. we have to pay them. Everything came down to the fact that Melo was afraid to wait and become a FA under the same new CBA which will probably hamstring the Knicks in the future.

I made a post earlier in the day about the fact that no championship caliber team has ever been led by 2 single-dimensional (all offense/little defense) "stars," and from what I saw, nobody was able to show me a team where this did happen.

Amare and Melo are second tier stars, and are not, in fact, "superstars." We will be fun to watch, but as long as Amare and Melo are the two best guys on the team we're not going to win a title, and probably not even reach a final, either.

They're second tier? Who is the top tier? They're both in the TOP 6 in the NBA in scoring. They were both starters in the all-star game.

Both guys average more rebounds than Lebron "supastar" James or Kevin Durant - so it sounds like they've got at least two dimensions. Oh, and Amar'e is third in the league in blocks.

And if you think they have similar games... I mean... they don't. Amar'e scores inside with the occasional jumper from the top of the key. Melo scores from the wing. They are quite complimentary in their skill sets. There was a long article recently about how Melo can score efficiently from outside...

If it's so hard to build around two guys making $20M - how do the Lakers do it? How about the Celtics? How about the Mavs? Or the Spurs? The NBA allows you to go over the cap, unless the CBA completely changes, I imagine that will still be the case.

I don't agree with Briggs that this was a terrible trade, though before it went down I wouldn't have included Mos, now there is no choice.

We still have Fields, who is really going to shine (as long as Amare and "ME"lo pass the ball). It will be interesting to see what Coach does as this offense WAS predicated on ball movement and that isn't exactly what "ME"lo and Amare bring.

So, having Fields still on the team along with two VERY good shooters in Williams and Walker, I do think we will be ok. We also still have Douglas and he might really do a lot better on penetrations now that "ME"lo and Amare will be getting doubled. Seriously, Fields might turn into something more special now. He knocks down open looks better than most on our team.

Perhaps Kenny Azubakiki comes around as another shooter or even Mason. Perhaps Rautins will be able to play a bit, or one of those other two top 7 picks we got. You never know. I'll keep an open mind going forward. But other players are going to have to step up.

Hopefully, now that we don't have salary cap space for next year, the CBA allows us the MLE in order to pick up another player. I do think we might be able to get something for some of our players that were just acquired in exchange for a center. I pray Turiaf stays healthy - now he is a perfect fit.

I think we can say we got a big 2.5 going now ("ME"lo, Stat and Billups).

ps - I will try to always say "ME"lo to remind us of how differently things could have gone, unless of course we play lights out, then I'll fess up (but not as much as Briggs).

LOL, I feel like this thread is going to be really nice to read when the Knicks starting contending for the 4 seed!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Royce Young, CBS:

I don't think there's any doubt that the Knicks have improved here. At 28-26, they're in the middle of the East. With Anthony and Billups joining Stoudemire, this team is going to battle the Magic for the four-seed the rest of the way. With 28 games remaining, it's not hard to see New York going something like 18-10 and finishing with something like 46 wins, while at the same time being a scary team to play in the postseason.

But a contender? Not yet. That was the issue at hand all along for Walsh. Giving up too much for Melo just didn't make a lot of sense when you were essentially bidding against yourself. The cost might be some tension in the front office, plus a hefty price tag of young talent shipped out to the Rockies.

Zach Lowe, SI:

New York is paying a heavy price, but it’s not as heavy as the James Dolan haters — and they are justified in their hate, for sure — might have you believe. Chandler was likely leaving after this season for a large payday the Knicks wouldn’t provide. Mozgov is a project. Billups is at least Felton’s equal now, and Billups’ deal expires after next season. Only $3.7 million of his deal for next season is guaranteed, meaning whichever team has him can buy him out for that amount during a brief window after this season ends, according to ShamSports.

Ben Golliver, CBS:

Championship teams now need three stars, and the Knicks are now one of a select handful of teams to have two. They're also well-positioned to recruit a third, pending major changes to the NBA's Collective Bargaining Agreement of course. They have a steady, tested point guard in place, one who knows how to get the most out of Anthony, and they acquired a solid player in Brewer, who, although nothing special, helps make up for the wave of role players that departed. Importantly, they also retained rookie forward Landry Fields, a prototypical glue player who will become even more important now that the team has two stars. In other words, they improved their top-end talent, built one of the most dynamic scoring one-two punches in the league and managed to do it while gutting things a lot less than you might think at first glance. 

An interesting aside from Alan Hahn which, at the moment, is still unconfirmed. (Important parts emboldened by yours truly. The text, that is, not the author. Alan needs no help being bold.):

The Knicks get Carmelo Anthony and Chauncey Billups, along with former Knick Renaldo Balkman, forward Shelden Williams and guard Anthony Carter from Denver and Corey Brewer and, though I can't entirely confirm it, it sounds like a first round pick from Minnesota, as well.

That would be very nice.

Meanwhile, here's Larry Coon with the word on New York's outgoing pick:

Here's the story on the draft pick. It'll be the "first available" after NY sends a pick to Houston.

Still not sure exactly what that means.

Kevin Pelton, Basketball Prospectus:

Ultimately, the price you pay isn't as important as the quality of the asset you get. That's why I tend to think it's a good thing that the Knicks did not let Timofey Mozgov stand between them and Anthony. If Anthony is as good as New York believes, all the picks and bit players in the world aren't going to make a difference.

So is Anthony worth that kind of faith? Seven months after the process began that led to this trade, I'm still not sure. I'm confident that Anthony is not one of the 10 best players in the league because of his defensive deficiencies. I'm also certain that the value of his ability to create shots for himself (as reflected, in part, in his teammates' scoring efficiency) means that he is an elite offensive player and an above-average player overall. There's an important gulf between those two extreme positions, and where Anthony really belongs will determine the ultimate success or failure of the Knicks.

Kurt Helin, NBC:

The hardest part of assembling a championship team is getting one of the few elite players in the league. The Knicks now have two of them. That is a core they can put the right pieces around to contend. And that is a reason for hope.

They are not contenders now because they gave up a lot to get ‘Melo. Not necessarily too much, they got more talent back certainly, but they gave up  players that are not just a dime a dozen. Yes, they got a quality point guard in Chauncey Billups, a veteran savvy one who knows how to win. But Billups is a poor fit for Mike D’Antoni’s running system. Billups is 34 and not so fleet of foot anymore. He has one year left on his deal after this and can be bought out after next season for $3.7 million (according to Sham Sport’s figures).

The Knicks are going to miss Danilo Gallinari. They will miss Wilson Chandler but they were going to have to renounce him this summer anyway to make room to sign Anthony as a free agent. Timofey Mozgov is a project that may develop into a rotation player but you don’t let him get in the way of a deal for a superstar.

Adam Figman, wise as always, gets the final word:

10 years of overreacting (in both directions) and we still haven't learned? Just let things play out. Jeez.

Starbury was welcomed with open arms and Gallo was booed. We're dumb. Let smarter heads do the thinking and just watch and enjoy. It's fun.

crzymdups wrote:

SupremeCommander wrote:

GoNyGoNyGo wrote:They gave up too much. They had youth on their side and gave it up.

I am on the side if not liking this deal.

What did the Heat give up for Shaq? The Celtics for KG?

BOSTON - The Boston Celtics announced today that they have acquired 10-time All-Star and 2004 MVP Kevin Garnett from the Minnesota Timberwolves in exchange for Ryan Gomes, Gerald Green, Al Jefferson, Theo Ratliff, Sebastian Telfair, a 2009 first round draft pick (top three protected) and a return of Minnesota's conditional first round draft pick previously obtained in the Ricky Davis-Wally Szczerbiak trade. Minnesota also receives cash considerations in the deal.

I'd say we paid a similar price to what Boston did for KG in the Melo deal.
You can act like we could have waited for summer, but it was obvious that Melo wanted the extension. To get him, we had to pay. The fear of a lockout was a big part of this trade.

We gave up too much and have horrible resources to improve a team that probably cant beat the Bulls in 7 games and wont advance.

Childs2Dudley wrote:

PresIke wrote:http://If that's the case, the Knicks have acquired a valuable commodity in Billups, with a $14.2M salary slot as an expiring contract to help match a salary such as Williams' and Paul's $16.3M in a trade deadline deal. The Knicks would still need to develop at least one, if not more, quality young assets that would interest the Jazz.

thanks for supporting my own point. so, care to retract your statement that it is an absolute certainty, which was effectively your argument, that the knicks cannot get one of the other players.

sure, it may not happen, or be easy, but hahn says it could happen.

i mean, if that's being thrown around in the "experts" discussions, as considered by the knicks, do you honestly think they would not believe it to be legitimately possible?

over the summer the rumors swirled about melo to the knicks...

many said b.s......

and now what do you know...

melo is a knick.

Did you bother to read past the first sentence of that quote?

You didn't have a point. You keep saying we can get a guy like Paul/Deron with Billups expiring contract. How do you expect that to happen? Do you think the Hornets or Jazz are going to just hand them over for a salary dump? You need to give back talent and we stripped our team of that in this trade. Hahn explicitly mentions this in the second sentence. Even if you include Fields you need to find another young piece who is just as good before the Hornets or Jazz do a trade like that? You know why it will be different this time? Because the Knicks wont have cap space. So unless the Knicks pull more Fields out of their asses in the next year then a trade for either of these guys is a pipe dream.

please don't put words in my mouth. find the post here where i said that we could get it with billups contact as an expiring. the point is that the knicks still have a chance at getting a 3rd star. who the hell knows what the situation will be then.

you stated there is no chance we can get a 3rd star. that's the point i made in my first post here.

PresIke wrote:

Childs2Dudley wrote:

PresIke wrote:http://If that's the case, the Knicks have acquired a valuable commodity in Billups, with a $14.2M salary slot as an expiring contract to help match a salary such as Williams' and Paul's $16.3M in a trade deadline deal. The Knicks would still need to develop at least one, if not more, quality young assets that would interest the Jazz.

thanks for supporting my own point. so, care to retract your statement that it is an absolute certainty, which was effectively your argument, that the knicks cannot get one of the other players.

sure, it may not happen, or be easy, but hahn says it could happen.

i mean, if that's being thrown around in the "experts" discussions, as considered by the knicks, do you honestly think they would not believe it to be legitimately possible?

over the summer the rumors swirled about melo to the knicks...

many said b.s......

and now what do you know...

melo is a knick.

Did you bother to read past the first sentence of that quote?

You didn't have a point. You keep saying we can get a guy like Paul/Deron with Billups expiring contract. How do you expect that to happen? Do you think the Hornets or Jazz are going to just hand them over for a salary dump? You need to give back talent and we stripped our team of that in this trade. Hahn explicitly mentions this in the second sentence. Even if you include Fields you need to find another young piece who is just as good before the Hornets or Jazz do a trade like that? You know why it will be different this time? Because the Knicks wont have cap space. So unless the Knicks pull more Fields out of their asses in the next year then a trade for either of these guys is a pipe dream.

please don't put words in my mouth. find the post here where i said that we could get it with billups contact as an expiring. the point is that the knicks still have a chance at getting a 3rd star. who the hell knows what the situation will be then.

you stated there is no chance we can get a 3rd star. that's the point i made in my first post here.

What chance is that? The fat chance? Unless someone takes way below max or we rob someone blind, the 3rd star dream is going to remain a dream.