TMS wrote:

martin wrote:

TMS wrote:

martin wrote:I think there is a big difference in playing at high level and having gobs of talent. AR has gobs of talent and that is manifested in the YouTube videos. No doubt.

But it's a far cry from playing at a high level. Unless those 2 things mean the same to some.

I think most are assuming that a base definition of playing at a high level means winning and playing within a team concept.

why do u think AR is incapable of playing within a team concept & helping his teams win games? i brought up several games where he's put up big statlines in games to help his team win games against some quality NBA competition in another thread & yet you still cling to this theory that he doesn't know how to play at a high level according to your own definition... what evidence do u have to prove your stance? the fact that the Warriors were losing more games than they've won is a poor basis for any argument, it takes more than just a couple highly talented player to win games, this is a team sport... i don't see how anyone can expect a 19-21 yo kid to prove anything more than AR has already proven to warrant him seeing regular playing time... this is 10-15 minutes of regular burn we're arguing about here, not for this guy to be enshrined as the foundation of our franchise.

let me straighten some false assumptions. I have never said that AR was incapable of playing within a team concept & helping out teams win games. That's very future looking.

I was trying to define what is meant by high level and then differentiate it between having talent and putting up stats and YouTube highlights.

Let me also state that what AR did on the Warriors team has just about zero baring on what we have seen in NY and what AR does in practice to earn minutes. It just doesn't or we would all also pine for Mason Jr to get more playing time because of what he displayed in Spurs minutes, and we really aren't. What AR did on the Warriors team mostly mattered to Donnie and the Lee trade.

Generally, young players need to earn there minutes through both execution and effort. I would guess that effort always gets rewarded (with an obvious baseline for talent and execution on court, we can't have some 5'4" all-world hustle dude on the court who can't do anything else). TD is a prime example of great effort even though we all see his PG mistakes (execution).

Another part of this obvious equation is just minutes and roles on this team. The Knicks are very thin at Center, so it's obvious that Timo may get more opportunities for minutes, all things being equal. AR has to compete with Turiaf, Chandler, Amare, Williams, Gallo for minutes at SF/PF; Timo only going for the C minutes.

In my book AR hasn't done much in the way of playing at a high level. Put up some tremendous stats every once in a while, yes. Created some nice highlight videos too. That's why we traded for him. And what we hope he can do in a winning, team environment.

martin, the AR situation is so completely different than Roger Mason Jr it's not even funny... i would have assumed u'd recognize the difference when you trade away an Allstar PF to acquire 1 guy who's 21 yo & has shown huge upside in past games he's played & plays a position that we've been looking for depth in all season long, & the other is a veteran FA signing on a minimum level contract playing a position that we have plenty of depth at already... the only reason we're even playing guys like Gallo, Wilson & Williams at the PF is because of MDA's desire to have guys who can shoot the 3 to spread the offense for Amare to work down low... we've been pining for help on the boards & a defensive presence in the paint in many games we've lost this year... could AR have helped us in those games? my opinion is he could have... not guaranteeing that he would have, but he's shown what he's capable of doing in the past, i think he can do so again given the proper opportunity... we can go back & forth on this all day, i'd just like to see AR get an extended run of minutes beyond just an 11 game stretch & he proves to me he is incapable of grasping the nuances of this system.

you are not really trying to address any of my major points of emphasis. Roger Mason Jr is about the type of argument you are making.

The reason the likes of Williams and Walker getting minutes over AR and Timo is not just 3 point shooting. That's naive at best. It's also about understanding and earing minutes. How many times do we have to stress this?

On a team that obviously lacks rebounding and bigs and AR still can't get minutes? And you think it's cause he can't shoot the 3 ball?

the only reason we're even playing guys like Gallo, Wilson & Williams at the PF is because of MDA's desire to have guys who can shoot the 3 to spread the offense for Amare to work down low

we've seen MDA play smallball w/Shawne Williams playing the 5 in some games, & this is with a healthy Turiaf ready to come into a game... his system is highly reliant on shooting the 3 ball... this is not breaking news here... why is it naive to think he plays guys like Williams & Walker because of their 3 pt shooting ability when his system is so reliant on that aspect of the game?

TMS wrote:martin, maybe u should re-read what i posted:

the only reason we're even playing guys like Gallo, Wilson & Williams at the PF is because of MDA's desire to have guys who can shoot the 3 to spread the offense for Amare to work down low

we've seen MDA play smallball w/Shawne Williams playing the 5 in some games, & this is with a healthy Turiaf ready to come into a game... his system is highly reliant on shooting the 3 ball... this is not breaking news here... why is it naive to think he plays guys like Williams & Walker because of their 3 pt shooting ability when his system is so reliant on that aspect of the game?

it's naive because you said it was the ONLY reason. There shooting certainly helps them in this offense. No way is it the only reason they are getting minutes over a guy like AR.

Some of the other reasons include the fact that AR and Timo have sucked and convinced the staff they weren't ready early on in the year, so the Knicks were forced to use other guys in that position.

CrushAlot wrote:

martin wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

And, yes, I'm bringing this up because if D'Antoni doesn't let his frustration and ego get in the way of things, and really, really, really, really, really tries with Anthony Randolph? He could have a game-changer on his hands. It hasn't been the best start with Randolph, but his potential flies through the roof. And the thing that separates a good coach from a great coach is what you get out of a player like Anthony Randolph. And Don Nelson, over the last few years, hasn't been a great or even adequate coach. Especially in Randolph's regard.
D'Antoni? If he works at it, and takes the long view of things, this could be his No. 2. This could be his guy.

I think Dwyer nailed it last July. Does anyone think D'Antoni has tried to really work with Randolph? It seemed like he dismissed him pretty early on.

Are you blind to the poor play that AR demonstrated early on in the year? Or the 3-8 record? Or the 13 wins in 14 games after that?

Still forgetting that?

He averaged under 10 minutes a game for the 8 consecutive games that he got to play in and he was scrutinized more than any other player on the court. He is only 21. Don't you think someone waiting for you to f up so they can ream you out is going to impact how you perform. How about if you are 21, in a new situation and coming back from an injury. I think one of D'Antoni's biggest faults is that he has no time for players that can't get to a point in their career where they can play without teaching and guidance from their coach. I think that is why every time this topic comes up the way Jordan Hill and Toney Douglas were handled last year is brought up. Dwyer said it. He said Randolph needs a coach to really, really, really, really try with him and not let his ego get in the way. You saw Mosgov against the Pistons. His confidence would have taken another blow if he was pulled after his first few minutes of playing through his nerves. I think the big difference between Mos and Randolph aside from talent is that Mos knows D'Antoni likes him.

Moz looked like crap the other night for the first 10 minutes he saw action... if AR had played that way he would have been back on the bench & that would have been the end of that experiment... MDA gave Mozgov a show of faith by sticking w/him & letting him work through his issues on the court... he had his G's looking to get him involved in the game & he eventually got into the flow & started to ball... i don't understand why some people think it's too much to hope for MDA to do the same for AR, who we already know has the talent to be a major impact in a game at this level.

Young players like we have need more than just sending them out on the floor game after game in order to get better. A coach like Mike can use his judgement to determine if the player is only going to get frustrated or if he just needs more time on the floor to get comfortable. The good thing is that AR and Timo did well enough to warrant another chance and it's not over for either player. We may yet determine that we should keep both young bigs and that would make me very happy. I don't believe we should send AR away cuz he's young and there's still too much potential. What's our rush? We're playoff bound and we'll be in great cap situation in the future. We don't need to make any moves right now. Let's see how these kids do over the next few weeks.

matt wrote:

TMS wrote:

matt wrote:

orangeblobman wrote:I don't understand the posting of these AR youtube clips, TMS.

The Warriors last year were a bum team and AR played and got decent numbers on that bum team. He has never contributed to a winning team.

We can take a ton of David Lee youtube clips and make the case that he is a top50 of all time player.

Youtube clips, like quotes, are very easy to take out of context and shape for your own needs.

please show me some of a full game where this scrub's talent compares in any way, shape or form to the level of play u see demonstrated in the game footage of AR i posted.

....it was a joke dude. The point is almost every player has highlights from a game (or a handful, whatever) where they show lots talent - this is because they're in the NBA. It doesn't mean they can play right on a team

I know there are a bunch of examples where players weren't used right before they reached their prime, but maybe Randolph is just a stiff?

yeah, & that's why i didn't post just a mixtape compilation of AR's highlights set to some rap tune... i posted extensive real game footage against competitive teams to demonstrate that this guy has the proven ability to contribute to winning style basketball... this is a highly talented 21 yo kid that needs to be developed, not thrown out on the floor for 8 minute stretches of sporadic play & then sat back down if he doesn't come out & beast right from the get go... before the other night i think alot of Knick fans including myself were probably woried that maybe Mozgov was just a stiff too... he definitely looked like one in the first 10 minutes of that game & in every other NBA game he's ever played leading up to it... AR's had several games like the one Mozgov had already in the books for the Warriors & against better competition than the Detroit Pistons, i think we should invest some effort into getting this guy involved in the regular rotation.

- I won’t lie to you, I was terribly worried. I felt that I could, that I only needed a tiny chance, that if I got 15 or 20 minutes I could do a lot. But like that, when you get on the court for two minutes in the end of the game, when it’s done… What can you do in that time?

- It was a couple minutes before the end of the game. We were losing hopelessly, and D’Antoni put me in the game. I was overwhelmed with desire to prove myself.

- It was already enough that I wasn’t playing, and there goes this outrageous rejection. At some moment I was close to a breakdown, I wanted to break a TV in my hotel room.

- Yes, it was a nightmare. I got two fouls, made a terrible shot and committed a turnover. Amare came to me and tried to make me calm down, but I only had a single thought in my head: “It’s over, Mike is going to bench me now”. But he didn’t say anything and I rushed into battle again. I attacked the rim and missed! I rebounded, attempted another shot and missed again! Another rebound, my third shot, and another bad miss!

But from there I got really angry, and from that moment everything started to fall in its place. It was like all my countless misfortunes came to an end. After that I almost didn’t leave the court and made 9 of 11 shots and five free throws.

this shows a lot of what i've been talking about how sporadic run in garbage time puts pressure on a young guy to try to do a little too much... having to look over your shoulder to see when the coach is gonna yank you from a game has got to negatively effect your psyche & make it hard to get into any kind of flow or rhythm... a little show of faith can go a long way... hopefully MDA can give AR the same kind of show of faith & give him a chance to show something.