martin wrote:

iSergio wrote:All you Danilo Gallinari homers cannot deny that he's done nothing for an entire half in each of the last two games. Carmelo Anthony brings it for all 4 quarters. Now, I'm not being a hater here. Gallinari played like a Star in those half's but we don't need a part time player. He has this bad habit (even dating back to last year) where he just does nothing for two quarters. We cannot win without production at his position.

does Carmelo play defense for even 1 quarter?

Yes he does. Where is this myth coming from that melo doesn't play defense. Did Amare play defense before he was a knick? Where does this come from?
Did you not see the wcf against Kobe, or does that not count?

The "no defense" line is old and unfounded.

Do rebounds count for defense? How many does melo average?

Melo plays defense and more than plays defense to suit dantoni's scheme.

He's better than every knick with the exception of amare (maybe)

Briggs: stop saying we have to trade gallo, Chandler AND fields. We do not have to trade all three and EVERYONE on the board agrees that trading those three for melo is a NO DEAL. constantly using that as an argument is false and not a valid discussion point.

Also, it's been stated over and over that we can't sign melo in the off season without releasing Chandler and turiaf walking. So that's not possible.

Let's try to keep it real fellas. :-

thejerk wrote:

babyKnicks wrote:

martin wrote:

iSergio wrote:All you Danilo Gallinari homers cannot deny that he's done nothing for an entire half in each of the last two games. Carmelo Anthony brings it for all 4 quarters. Now, I'm not being a hater here. Gallinari played like a Star in those half's but we don't need a part time player. He has this bad habit (even dating back to last year) where he just does nothing for two quarters. We cannot win without production at his position.

does Carmelo play defense for even 1 quarter?

Yes he does. Where is this myth coming from that melo doesn't play defense. Did Ames play defense before he was a knick? Where does this come from?
Did you not see the wcf against Kobe, or does that not count?

The no defense line is old and unfounded.

Do rebounds count for defense? How many does melo average?

Melo plays defense and more than plays defense to suit dantoni's scheme.

He's better than every knick with the exception of amare (maybe)

Briggs: stop saying we have to trade gallo, Chandler AND fields. We do not have to trade all three and EVERYONE on the board agrees that trading those three for melo is a NO DEAL. constantly using that as an argument is false and not a valid discussion point.

Also, it's been stated over and over that we can't sign melo in the off season without releasing Chandler and turiaf walking. So that's not possible.

Let's try to keep it real fellas. :-)

Melo is athletic, Gallo not so much. Do you really think that Melo would not excel at playing defense if he really put an emphasis on it? Same story as Amare, once he is here all these "myths" will disappear.

Remember how good it felt for one game last year when McGrady ripped it up (his first game in NY). Players like this can carry the team on their backs. Gallo and Will can not do this, at least not consistently.

Things I think we can all agree on

- Gallo is obviously not the most athletic guy but he takes pride in his defense (been stated multiple times he ASKS to guard the other team's best wing). He tries on defense consistently.

- Melo can definitely be a great defender..if he wants to be

thejerk " Do you really think that Melo would not excel at playing defense if he really put an emphasis on it? " Even you..in trying to defend Melo's defense put that last part in there.

The guy has a rep not for being incapable of playing great D but being indifferent about it. To me if you want to be in the class of Kobe or Lebron you shouldn't have things like "He could definitely be a great defender if he wanted" said about you.

- Amare is a 10 out of 10 on the offensive end. He is nowhere near that on the defensive end. To me, it seems like he def. cares a LOT about defense this season. However just because you have the physical tools to be a great defender (which Amare obviously does) and you have the desire to be great on defense (which I think Amare also does), I don't think in a league full of as many gifted players as the NBA is that you can all of a sudden just become a GREAT defender because you decide "Ok..I think I should care about defense now".

For example, I just don't think you can kind of be weak in showing on a pick n roll for 6 seasons and then flick a switch and kill that bad habit overnight. It takes time and a conscious effort.

A huge part of D is about flat out giving a **** yes, but there are techniques, studying film/statistics that you have to put time in for. Shane Battier studies charts of all the shots a guy like Kobe likes to take and then consciously tries to force him to the areas where his %ages are lower. You think Amare or Melo want to take it to that level? There's nothing holding them back and there's been nothing holding them back their entire time in the league...well maybe except for no1 teaching them maybe? I love Amare and he has worked his ass off to become a MUCH better player than when he first entered the league. If someone worked with him on becoming a great defender from Day 1 in the league I don't think we would even be having this "we need a defensive big" discussion. He even said early in his career he was not taught defense very well.

Melo is not lazy. I don't think you can become as nasty as he is without working your ass off. Has he put in the same work on becoming a great defender? Does he want to? He's already a max player and has an adoring public so I could understand if he decides he's worked enough, he's great enough. But you gotta figure those playoff exits eat him up, as competitive as he is. If someone asked him off the record what he thought was his biggest area to improve..would the answer be defense?

Hey if we get Melo, there's a chance we could flat out just try to outscore teams. But you can't NOT be worried about the other end of the floor

OldFan wrote:

TMS wrote:

OldFan wrote:

Melo2NYK wrote:

Vmart wrote:

FistOfOakley wrote:the heat are a great defensive team. melo would've struggled against them also.

and the heat also shot 55%. you can't win too often when they shoot that well.

That is on MDA. defense will always be the thorn in his side. Until he starts to get with the program and utilize a defensive minded center other teams will always shoot a great percentage vs the Knicks. Lack of interior defense is basically a product of being undersized.

The problem in the Heat game wasn't our interior defense. The problem became the fact that the Heat simply are just as good, if not better, at our running game (if they get the opportunity to run) but can also play excellent half-court defense.

And Melo helps our 1/2 court defense how?

We are not an elite team. Melo would be great at the right price. But I have a couple of concerns - how much we give up and is he the right player for this team. You may need more stars to win but that does not mean any two stars will win. All the teams we need to beat have stars that are multi-dimensional. I thing amare is great. But he's not a great rebounder, defender or passer. Melo is a great scorer and very good rebounder but pretty bad on defense.

Notice how most of the elite teams we want to compete against have stars who play defense:

2009-10
Dwight Howard, Orlando
Kobe Bryant, LA Lakers
LeBron James, Cleveland
Rajon Rondo, Boston
Gerald Wallace, Charlotte
Tim Duncan, San Antonio
Dwyane Wade, Miami
Thabo Sefolosha, Oklahoma City
Josh Smith, Atlanta
Anderson Varejao, Cleveland

2008-09
Dwight Howard, Orlando
Kobe Bryant, LA Lakers
LeBron James, Cleveland
Chris Paul, New Orleans
Kevin Garnett, Boston

Tim Duncan, San Antonio
Dwyane Wade, Miami
Rajon Rondo, Boston
Shane Battier, Houston
Ron Artest, Houston

2007-08
Kevin Garnett, Boston
Kobe Bryant, LA Lakers
Marcus Camby, Denver
Bruce Bowen, San Antonio
Tim Duncan, San Antonio

Shane Battier, Houston
Chris Paul, New Orleans
Dwight Howard, Orlando
Tayshaun Prince, Detroit
Raja Bell, Phoenix

since when are Varejao, Gerald Wallace, Sefolosha, Battier, Camby, Bowen, Prince & Raja Bell "star" players? the Knicks have role players that play defense too... Wilson, Turiaf, Felton, Fields, Douglas all play solid-very good defense... as for not having a star that plays D, Amare's defense has improved by leaps & bounds since he got to NY also... even still, u can easily see that we're still lacking another go to scorer that can get off his shots w/o having to have a play called for him to run off a PnR or a spot up J.

anyway, defense is more mentality & effort than skill... i don't see why Melo couldn't up his intensity on defense if he came here, it's not like Amare was ever known as a strong defender either... when you have leaders on your team leading by example, everyone else follows... when i watched Melo man up on Kobe during the WCF, his defense was the most impressive thing i saw out of his game... he was getting up on Kobe on every possession & being very physical in the paint... frustrated Kobe on plenty occasions & went shot for shot on offense.

we absolutely could use another defensive bigman in the paint, but w/the style of basketball that MDA likes to employ, a role player like that would see limited opportunity to impact the games in crunchtime... he usually goes with a small lineup to close out games... he did that all throughout his time in Phoenix as well... a player like Melo on the other hand, would have a huge impact on games in crunchtime when things get tight & plays tend to break down.

Like I said it depends what you give up. If Denver was willing to take Gallo, Curry
and randolph (or the pick we trade him for), the deal would already be done.

As far as your good defensive players on the knicks - Turiaf has been injured and
not available half the time. I don't think we're getting Melo without giving up Fields.
Chandler is over matched at the 4. Douglass is overmatched at the 2. Amare is not a good
defense player. We are a bad defense team. Some of that is on MDA but some of that is
not have any defensive stoppers. All the good teams have them. If we acquire Melo
and still have the assets to acquire them then it's a good trade.

La - Go to Scorers and Great defense.
Bos - Go to scorers and great defense.
Miami - Go to scorers and great defense.

NY - With Melo All Star scores no defense.

So it all depends on what we have to give up for Melo.

And Denver has more leverage then posters on this board want to admit. If Melo goes The free agent route, he's losing millions. So you can say Denver would be crazy to let him go for nothing but
you can also say Melo would be crazy to give up the Millions. It's a game of brinkmanship. It
may depend on who blinks first.

Last point about the big. If you get a quality big you could play him 36 minutes a game if
you wanted to. Chandler and amare both play multiple positions so a rotation split like this would
work

C Amare New Big New Big New Big
PF Chandler Amare Amare CHandler
SF Gallo Chandler Gallo Gallo

So you could play all 4 36 minutes a game. So it would give you the opportunity to go small
and just try to outgun your opponent. Or go more conventional when you ne

DEN is trying to get other offers on Melo but everyone knows unless Melo is willing to sign an extension, they won't get jack from anyone... so DW is gonna wait & see what happens at the deadline... of course the deal hasn't been done yet, if you're DEN why would you jump on the Knicks' offer (if there even is one yet) until you've exhausted all other options for something better?

martin wrote:it's weird to me to not hear any arguments that MDA system will never win a championship but rather we must double down on a player who is not known for his defense and is only an elite offensive player.

the decision has already been made to hire MDA to run this team... mine as well bring in players that fit his style of play... if we had hired a guy like Avery Johnson instead, then going after someone like Marc Gasol would make all the sense in the world, but you know MDA doesn't like to utilize a lumbering halfcourt style C in his offense.

If we don't get Melo we still need to look to balance the roster with a perimeter defender or 2 possibly moving Chandler, Gallo or Fields for a 2 way guy who is available who does those things. And even if we do get Melo we need to make a move to add a two way perimeter defender since Felton, Amare, Melo would provide most of the scoring.

TMS wrote:Melo's value comes apparent when you see a guy like Lebron torching us on every possession in the 2nd half shooting up midrange J's at will against anyone who guarded him... that's the type of shotmaking a guy like Melo brings to the table every night... if u don't believe that you have never seen him play... all this talk about his lack of defense is valid, but you have to consider the strengths in his game & what that does for our offense.

Melo is probably THE most talented scorer in the NBA & he does so in a variety of ways, u simply can't stop him from scoring cuz if u try & take 1 thing away, he can burn you with something else... Melo is a guy who can take his man off the dribble & score or get to the foul line at will on any given possession w/o having a play drawn up for him, or pull up in transition & knock down a midrange J w/o having to set up the offense like Lebron was doing all throughout the 2nd half last night, or post up his man in the post & get off a shot in traffic & either make the shot or get to the foul line, or can knock down the occasional 3 pt shot, or get his points off the fastbreak & finish w/the best of them... this is the type of elite scoring talent this team really needs right now, because as you clearly saw last night, when teams take away Amare, our offense tends to stagnate & u start seeing guys trying to force up shots that they normally wouldn't take off isolation that aren't nearly as skilled offensively as Melo is in those aspects of the game... watching Lebron torch us last night in the 2nd half made me realize how badly this team needs a guy like Melo even more.

rewatching the game right now. from what I see the Heat are better than us because:

- Their defense is just much better than ours. I think the stats back that up as far as Miami being pretty damn good on D. They took away Amare. Part of it was Amare forcing shots too but he's been doing that during our streak down the stretch and making difficult shots.

- They have a guy like Lebron who can score even when the defense is great. Lebron can only be defended reasonably when his perimeter shot isn't falling but he keeps taking it anyway. His J was on last night and whne his J is on he's unguardable

Is the best solution to get Melo to match a guy like Bron or get someone who can help the Knicks do what the Heat did to us: take away their bread and butter on offense, make it difficult for one of the best offensive teams in the league (The Knicks) to score.

If the plan is to get Melo and then try to just score 130 points a game, it's gonna be fun to watch us try to win like that. Who says it can't be done?

I think we look great when we run, and in general when we move the ball our offense is a pretty sight to behold. It's MUCH easier for us to run when we get stops. Maybe if we have a defensive big we stop them more and run more. Maybe if we add depth, Amare and Felton have more energy when they're on the floor to do everything (finish shots in the 4th with fresher legs, be more intense on D).

The Heat also look way better when they run. So maybe if we have Melo, we make a lot more shots and the Heat have less misses to run off of. Their D just smothered us last night, which led to a lot of transition for them.

There's more than 1 way to build a championship.

Plan A: Get Melo fill in the holes. Less resources to do that.
Plan B: Fill in the holes with better quality players than you could sign with Melo's scraps.

Either way Walsh is going to have to be creative in filling the gaps.

What we can all root for:

- Gallo to keep building. If we keep him, great. If we trade him, his continuing improvement means we get more from trading him and have to give up less in a Melo deal. The same could be said of all the kids: Chandler, TD (who I am getting tiredof..), Fields, Mozgov etc.

- Anthony Randolph sighting...

- SOMEONE to step up so we don't have to play Amare and Felton 40 minutes every game to be in the game.