Uptown wrote:Starphuckin? What does that mean, exactly? If you define starphucking by what the Celts did to win a "Ship" then we need to proceed with no vaseline.

Could mean that. Could be like the yankees who did not win for 18 years despite great rosters.

Or when Payton and Malone chased a ring.

free agent signings. Look at Rangers over the years. Pavel Bure?

A-Rod ruined the Texas Rangers payroll.

Grant Hill injury in Orlando. Detroit wins a few years later without him.

Camby/Nene for Dice.

Marbury in NY.

Marvin Webster, McAdoo, Spencer Haywood in NY

Marbury in NJ.

Resigning Ewing in 97'

Superstar GM's: Rick Pitino, Isiah Thomas, Mike. Larry Bird,

David Beckham in the US.

Farve with Jets

AntiStarphuch: Letting him walk and bring up Aaron Rogers!

Starphuch coaches: Long list historical, but Lenny, Larry, Isiah to name a few.

Starphuching is the unfulfiled hype. It usually does not work. Celts win with bench, not just big three.
This past season was about the celts depth, not stars.

Usually you bring in a big piece when your closer, not rebuild.

The list is very long........

TMS wrote:i'll tell you guys what's stupid... that's trading away young assets for a player you don't even know if you'll be able to sign in a year's time... giving up young assets to attain a superstar in a trade is not stupid... that's what teams like the Celtics did to get KG & the Heat did to get Shaq, both on their way to winning a championship because of it... i love how the notion of giving up young assets for a player like CP3 now is so out of the question for the same people that were so adamant in their defense of the all-in for Lebron plan over the past 2 years.

not wanting to give up the entire farm for CP3 is understandable, i don't think anyone advocates giving up AR, Gallo & Chandler all in the same deal for a player who had a major surgery... you can draw to flashbacks of the ill-fated McDyess deal in some respects... but in other respects CP3 is a much more valuable player, especially when you already have a player like Amare in the fold who would be at the receiving end of his 10 assists a night over Ray Felton's 5... & you would also likely be adding a player like OK4 to the fold as well which shores up your frontcourt even more... but no, people would rather wait out another season & get strung along once again by Melo hoping he'll decide to sign here next summer... the time for waiting is over... if a superstar player is available in a trade, you go for it... that's what amassing young assets is supposed to net us afterall... giving up AR is not going to make or break this franchise... attaining a player like CP3 very well could... of course there's a risk, just like there was a risk giving away assets before we even knew what Lebron was going to do this summer... i'd rather give up assets knowing who you're getting personally... this is CP3 we're talking about... you won't find a better PG in the NBA anywhere & people are hedging on giving up AR... wow.

Excellent post, I totally agree with this.

if the hornets agreed to that deal, is there ANYBODY who would NOT want CP3 (arguably the game's best PG, 2 yrs ago it was inarguable he was the best) for curry, randolph/gallinari, chandler/douglas. i think best case scenario is curry/randolph/chandler and knicks keep gallo and douglas. (fields looks like he does everything chandler does). people are legit going to pass on the best point in the game b/c of the potential of either randolph/gallinari? come on!

TMS wrote:i'll tell you guys what's stupid... that's trading away young assets for a player you don't even know if you'll be able to sign in a year's time... giving up young assets to attain a superstar in a trade is not stupid... that's what teams like the Celtics did to get KG & the Heat did to get Shaq, both on their way to winning a championship because of it... i love how the notion of giving up young assets for a player like CP3 now is so out of the question for the same people that were so adamant in their defense of the all-in for Lebron plan over the past 2 years.

not wanting to give up the entire farm for CP3 is understandable, i don't think anyone advocates giving up AR, Gallo & Chandler all in the same deal for a player who had a major surgery... you can draw to flashbacks of the ill-fated McDyess deal in some respects... but in other respects CP3 is a much more valuable player, especially when you already have a player like Amare in the fold who would be at the receiving end of his 10 assists a night over Ray Felton's 5... & you would also likely be adding a player like OK4 to the fold as well which shores up your frontcourt even more... but no, people would rather wait out another season & get strung along once again by Melo hoping he'll decide to sign here next summer... the time for waiting is over... if a superstar player is available in a trade, you go for it... that's what amassing young assets is supposed to net us afterall... giving up AR is not going to make or break this franchise... attaining a player like CP3 very well could... of course there's a risk, just like there was a risk giving away assets before we even knew what Lebron was going to do this summer... i'd rather give up assets knowing who you're getting personally... this is CP3 we're talking about... you won't find a better PG in the NBA anywhere & people are hedging on giving up AR... wow.

ditto.

Nalod wrote:

Uptown wrote:Starphuckin? What does that mean, exactly? If you define starphucking by what the Celts did to win a "Ship" then we need to proceed with no vaseline.

Could mean that. Could be like the yankees who did not win for 18 years despite great rosters.

Or when Payton and Malone chased a ring.

free agent signings. Look at Rangers over the years. Pavel Bure?

A-Rod ruined the Texas Rangers payroll.

Grant Hill injury in Orlando. Detroit wins a few years later without him.

Camby/Nene for Dice.

Marbury in NY.

Marvin Webster, McAdoo, Spencer Haywood in NY

Marbury in NJ.

Resigning Ewing in 97'

Superstar GM's: Rick Pitino, Isiah Thomas, Mike. Larry Bird,

David Beckham in the US.

Farve with Jets

AntiStarphuch: Letting him walk and bring up Aaron Rogers!

Starphuch coaches: Long list historical, but Lenny, Larry, Isiah to name a few.

Starphuching is the unfulfiled hype. It usually does not work. Celts win with bench, not just big three.
This past season was about the celts depth, not stars.

Usually you bring in a big piece when your closer, not rebuild.

The list is very long........

So what you are basically saying is, when you trade for a star player, or sign a big name GM or coach and it doesn't work its a starphuck. But when it does work, its not.

Examples:

Sixers trading for Moses Malone was not a starphuck because they won the "Ship"

Heat trading for Shaq was not a starphuck because they won '''

Celts adding Garnett was not a starphuck because they won ''''

ARod was a starphuck in Texas but not in NY.

Larry Brown was a starphuck in NY but not in Detroit.

Got it!!!!!

eViL wrote:

TMS wrote:i'll tell you guys what's stupid... that's trading away young assets for a player you don't even know if you'll be able to sign in a year's time... giving up young assets to attain a superstar in a trade is not stupid... that's what teams like the Celtics did to get KG & the Heat did to get Shaq, both on their way to winning a championship because of it... i love how the notion of giving up young assets for a player like CP3 now is so out of the question for the same people that were so adamant in their defense of the all-in for Lebron plan over the past 2 years.

not wanting to give up the entire farm for CP3 is understandable, i don't think anyone advocates giving up AR, Gallo & Chandler all in the same deal for a player who had a major surgery... you can draw to flashbacks of the ill-fated McDyess deal in some respects... but in other respects CP3 is a much more valuable player, especially when you already have a player like Amare in the fold who would be at the receiving end of his 10 assists a night over Ray Felton's 5... & you would also likely be adding a player like OK4 to the fold as well which shores up your frontcourt even more... but no, people would rather wait out another season & get strung along once again by Melo hoping he'll decide to sign here next summer... the time for waiting is over... if a superstar player is available in a trade, you go for it... that's what amassing young assets is supposed to net us afterall... giving up AR is not going to make or break this franchise... attaining a player like CP3 very well could... of course there's a risk, just like there was a risk giving away assets before we even knew what Lebron was going to do this summer... i'd rather give up assets knowing who you're getting personally... this is CP3 we're talking about... you won't find a better PG in the NBA anywhere & people are hedging on giving up AR... wow.

couldn't disagree more. donnie's plan may have had lebron as a top target but flexibility was the fallback and, in my opinion, that worked very well. giving up assets to new orleans who are in no position to drive hard bargains is foolish. when we dealt with houston, they had the position of strength. now with new orleans, we do. i wouldn't give up major assets for a player who 1) plays a position we already have filled, 2) is coming off injury, 3) has demanded his team trade him. we are not desperate here. there is no fallback to trading for CP. if he does not recover or if he re-injures himself, we have no flexibility. this is the key difference between what donnie did last season and what you are suggesting we do now.

uh, not necessarily. no do not NEED to trade paul right now. paul isnt in the drivers seat. no is. other teams will jump on the opportunity with just as many assets as us. time and time again we were "backdoored" with deals that we should have jumped on. we cant let this happen again. the main thing walsh wanted were assets to get THESE type of players and since cp3 is available we have to pull the trigger.

BigSm00th wrote:

TMS wrote:i'll tell you guys what's stupid... that's trading away young assets for a player you don't even know if you'll be able to sign in a year's time... giving up young assets to attain a superstar in a trade is not stupid... that's what teams like the Celtics did to get KG & the Heat did to get Shaq, both on their way to winning a championship because of it... i love how the notion of giving up young assets for a player like CP3 now is so out of the question for the same people that were so adamant in their defense of the all-in for Lebron plan over the past 2 years.

not wanting to give up the entire farm for CP3 is understandable, i don't think anyone advocates giving up AR, Gallo & Chandler all in the same deal for a player who had a major surgery... you can draw to flashbacks of the ill-fated McDyess deal in some respects... but in other respects CP3 is a much more valuable player, especially when you already have a player like Amare in the fold who would be at the receiving end of his 10 assists a night over Ray Felton's 5... & you would also likely be adding a player like OK4 to the fold as well which shores up your frontcourt even more... but no, people would rather wait out another season & get strung along once again by Melo hoping he'll decide to sign here next summer... the time for waiting is over... if a superstar player is available in a trade, you go for it... that's what amassing young assets is supposed to net us afterall... giving up AR is not going to make or break this franchise... attaining a player like CP3 very well could... of course there's a risk, just like there was a risk giving away assets before we even knew what Lebron was going to do this summer... i'd rather give up assets knowing who you're getting personally... this is CP3 we're talking about... you won't find a better PG in the NBA anywhere & people are hedging on giving up AR... wow.

agreed. i think there is a fine line b/w what constitutes a "good deal" in trading for CP3. That being said, Briggs, ray felton for his career is a 14 pt 6 assist guy. i agree his #'s will get inflated, but saying he'll lead the league in assists is a bit much.

chris paul is a year younger than felton is. for his career he's legit put up 19/10/5reb!/2.5 stl. those are superstar #'s. look at isiah thomas' career #'s, very very similar. this guy, in d'antoni's offense, could legitimately put up 20 points/15 assists/6 rebounds/2.5 steals. just eye popping stuff. if nash won 2 back to back MVPs i can't imagine what CP3 would do in the prime of his career playing with a big like amare. (CP3's best year in 08-09 he put up 23/11/6/3 those are real numbers not inflated briggs #s thats what this guy did with byron scott as a head coach)

felton was signed to a very very realistic contract. if the knicks made this move i don't see why they couldn't turn around and get some assets for felton.

obviously the knicks have the leverage here. they have had a succesful offseason so far, have accumulated a few nice picks, and CP3 is the one that demanded a trade. the hornets are the one with the disgruntled superstar, not the knicks.

walsh has made his name as a GM pulling off good trades. his pacer teams post reggie were forged with a few wily trades (getting JO for dale davis, getting artest and brad miller for jalen rose), i think everyone agrees lee was gonna go for nothing and he managed to get AR, turaif, and azabuike out of it --- a great deal when the flip side of the coin is nothing.

we'll see what happens, but how can you NOT want a guy like CP3? i know he has an injury issue -- guess what, so does amare. you can be in the conversation as a championship contender with a duo of CP3 and amare.

Explain to me what leverage the Knicks have when Chris Paul is signed for 2 more years? None--it would be expensive and stupid at this point. We just paid 100mm $ for a guy who is a legit health rish--now what we want to start giving up 21 year old 7 footers. Sometimes I think that people need to think more about it-- we are in 0 need. We wait and deal from position of strength--see what WE have and not rush into very expensive players who haev been hurt for lengthy periods without proof of health. Im very excited to see what we have---I think its a winning team--a few tweaks--OK but let it go.

TMS wrote:i'll tell you guys what's stupid... that's trading away young assets for a player you don't even know if you'll be able to sign in a year's time... giving up young assets to attain a superstar in a trade is not stupid... that's what teams like the Celtics did to get KG & the Heat did to get Shaq, both on their way to winning a championship because of it... i love how the notion of giving up young assets for a player like CP3 now is so out of the question for the same people that were so adamant in their defense of the all-in for Lebron plan over the past 2 years.

not wanting to give up the entire farm for CP3 is understandable, i don't think anyone advocates giving up AR, Gallo & Chandler all in the same deal for a player who had a major surgery... you can draw to flashbacks of the ill-fated McDyess deal in some respects... but in other respects CP3 is a much more valuable player, especially when you already have a player like Amare in the fold who would be at the receiving end of his 10 assists a night over Ray Felton's 5... & you would also likely be adding a player like OK4 to the fold as well which shores up your frontcourt even more... but no, people would rather wait out another season & get strung along once again by Melo hoping he'll decide to sign here next summer... the time for waiting is over... if a superstar player is available in a trade, you go for it... that's what amassing young assets is supposed to net us afterall... giving up AR is not going to make or break this franchise... attaining a player like CP3 very well could... of course there's a risk, just like there was a risk giving away assets before we even knew what Lebron was going to do this summer... i'd rather give up assets knowing who you're getting personally... this is CP3 we're talking about... you won't find a better PG in the NBA anywhere & people are hedging on giving up AR... wow.

You make a strong case TMS. For certain players, certain teams ,this would be a smart move.
My big problem is not only can Paul turn into Dice as you mentioned but Randolph has Camby
like potential. Not the humpty dumpty potential he had in NY but the Denver variety. Gallo
is already one of the best 3pt shooters in the league. Nothing good has come out of win now
in a decade, and it feels like another case of going all in on a bad knee.

No guarantees that AR or Gallo will get to the next level but I like the odds better than
Paul running a high octane offense on a bad knee for more than a couple of seasons without
him starting to miss games. No way NY passes Miami in the next couple of years but it does
give AR and Gallo the chance to become very good pieces for a contender while the big three get
older, and the Knicks still have enough room to sign a superstar in their prime on better
terms because this team is going to get better.

BRIGGS wrote:

BigSm00th wrote:

TMS wrote:i'll tell you guys what's stupid... that's trading away young assets for a player you don't even know if you'll be able to sign in a year's time... giving up young assets to attain a superstar in a trade is not stupid... that's what teams like the Celtics did to get KG & the Heat did to get Shaq, both on their way to winning a championship because of it... i love how the notion of giving up young assets for a player like CP3 now is so out of the question for the same people that were so adamant in their defense of the all-in for Lebron plan over the past 2 years.

not wanting to give up the entire farm for CP3 is understandable, i don't think anyone advocates giving up AR, Gallo & Chandler all in the same deal for a player who had a major surgery... you can draw to flashbacks of the ill-fated McDyess deal in some respects... but in other respects CP3 is a much more valuable player, especially when you already have a player like Amare in the fold who would be at the receiving end of his 10 assists a night over Ray Felton's 5... & you would also likely be adding a player like OK4 to the fold as well which shores up your frontcourt even more... but no, people would rather wait out another season & get strung along once again by Melo hoping he'll decide to sign here next summer... the time for waiting is over... if a superstar player is available in a trade, you go for it... that's what amassing young assets is supposed to net us afterall... giving up AR is not going to make or break this franchise... attaining a player like CP3 very well could... of course there's a risk, just like there was a risk giving away assets before we even knew what Lebron was going to do this summer... i'd rather give up assets knowing who you're getting personally... this is CP3 we're talking about... you won't find a better PG in the NBA anywhere & people are hedging on giving up AR... wow.

agreed. i think there is a fine line b/w what constitutes a "good deal" in trading for CP3. That being said, Briggs, ray felton for his career is a 14 pt 6 assist guy. i agree his #'s will get inflated, but saying he'll lead the league in assists is a bit much.

chris paul is a year younger than felton is. for his career he's legit put up 19/10/5reb!/2.5 stl. those are superstar #'s. look at isiah thomas' career #'s, very very similar. this guy, in d'antoni's offense, could legitimately put up 20 points/15 assists/6 rebounds/2.5 steals. just eye popping stuff. if nash won 2 back to back MVPs i can't imagine what CP3 would do in the prime of his career playing with a big like amare. (CP3's best year in 08-09 he put up 23/11/6/3 those are real numbers not inflated briggs #s thats what this guy did with byron scott as a head coach)

felton was signed to a very very realistic contract. if the knicks made this move i don't see why they couldn't turn around and get some assets for felton.

obviously the knicks have the leverage here. they have had a succesful offseason so far, have accumulated a few nice picks, and CP3 is the one that demanded a trade. the hornets are the one with the disgruntled superstar, not the knicks.

walsh has made his name as a GM pulling off good trades. his pacer teams post reggie were forged with a few wily trades (getting JO for dale davis, getting artest and brad miller for jalen rose), i think everyone agrees lee was gonna go for nothing and he managed to get AR, turaif, and azabuike out of it --- a great deal when the flip side of the coin is nothing.

we'll see what happens, but how can you NOT want a guy like CP3? i know he has an injury issue -- guess what, so does amare. you can be in the conversation as a championship contender with a duo of CP3 and amare.

Explain to me what leverage the Knicks have when Chris Paul is signed for 2 more years? None--it would be expensive and stupid at this point. We just paid 100mm $ for a guy who is a legit health rish--now what we want to start giving up 21 year old 7 footers. Sometimes I think that people need to think more about it-- we are in 0 need. We wait and deal from position of strength--see what WE have and not rush into very expensive players who haev been hurt for lengthy periods without proof of health. Im very excited to see what we have---I think its a winning team--a few tweaks--OK but let it go.

Briggs, giving up a 21 yr old 7 footer to get a 25 yr old who's career averages are 19/10/5/2 seems like why you acquire the 21 YO 7', so you can get the all-world point guard. obviously if CP3's knees are a huge ? mark its a gamble but i don't think they are. i agree, we need to deal from a position of strength. a position of strength, to me, is when another team's star player comes out and says "i dont want to play here anymore, trade me to the knicks" which is essentially what just happened.

dealing gallinari and randolph would be excessive. dealing one of them would not be. turn felton and his very serviceable contract around in december and get another few assets. this is the best PG in the league we are talking about.