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Knicks shouldve stuck with a traditional rebuild and enhanced with FA
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Papabear
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6/12/2010  11:31 AM    LAST EDITED: 6/12/2010  11:33 AM
nixluva wrote:
TMS wrote:
Solace wrote:
TMS wrote:
Solace wrote:
TMS wrote:
stanleybostitch wrote:
TMS wrote:if we don't get Lebron, Bosh, Wade or Amare this summer, how has DW improved the foundations of this franchise for the long term exactly? because he drafted Gallo & TD? are those guys going to be the cornerstones of our franchise for the coming decade? not owning our draft picks for the next 2 drafts doesn't put this franchise in a good position at all if we miss out on the bigname FA's this summer.

You're kidding, right? DW has finally brought full cap flexibility to a franchise that hasn't seen that promised land for a decade+. Cap flexibility is one of the key foundations to building a successful - long-term successful - franchise. The others being talent, coaching, and some luck. We can argue about the current (lack of) talent, though Gallo and TD were great picks, Bill Walker a otential steal. And on the coaching front, you're either on the D'antoni boat or not, though my guess is the players that play the game like the guy. And this counts for a lot.

no, i'm not kidding... DW has bought cap flexibility in the summer of 2010 & it came at a high price... he could have done absolutely nothing & we still would have had the same flexibility in 2011 & beyond, so really the moves he's made since he's been here aside from drafting Gallo & TD, have all been made with the summer of 2010 in mind... if he strikes out on the bigname FA's this summer then our franchise will be in WORSE shape than we would have been in had he done nothing at all.

I don't agree you with you, just because if we had taken the plan you're mentioning, everyone would be criticizing for not freeing up the cap for "the Lebron year". I don't agree with you because with a team that's going nowhere, it's a chance you have to take. I don't always think that just because plan A doesn't work out that plan A wasn't worthwhile and that it hasn't opened up other opportunities. But, maybe the difference is that I'm not sure we gave up that high a price. So far, I simply think we gave up marginal assets for a high reward plan (with the 2011 pick TBD in that statement). I think in this league, it's better to be utterly horrible than marginal. We'll see.

i fully expected him to make moves in the summer of 2010, but trading away future picks to free up $7M worth of cap is a highly questionable move... we had the assets & cap space to make some significant moves this summer via trade... we weren't necessarily in the position where we absolutely HAD to free up more cap space as DW took care of that in his previous deals to dump Craw & Zach, which were both good moves... i think most people have universally commended him on those previous moves... the last one where he panicked & gave up Jordan Hill & the rights to 2 future picks for a broken down T-Mac put his ass on the line in a big way... for all our sakes we better hope his gamble pays off bigtime, otherwise it will prove to be 1 of the worst trades this franchise has made in a long time, & that's saying a lot.

I hear you. Jordan Hill doesn't bother me much because I think it was a terrible pick to start with, which was the real travesty. The other picks, we'll have to wait and see what we might have missed on. The draft is definitely a crapshoot.

Maybe we just have very different concepts about how you build a team. I think it sucks that the NBA is so f'd that you have to build a team this way if you want a championship... but it's kind of a hack to slide through the rules. Because if you try to play within the normal rules you just get screwed. The NBA definitely has the worst free agency/cap system and minor league system of any major sport. Because of these two factors, you're jumping through hoops just to get a chance at getting a superstar or two. My impression is that Walsh is trying to use this hack around the mentally deranged system. If we had Jordan Hill, David Lee, Nate Robinson, Wilson Chandler, Gallinari, a few top 15 first round picks over the course of a few years and say Joe Johnson... I doubt anyone would really be satisfied with that team. But that's a distinct possibility if we don't make the deadline moves that we did make. If someone like Joe Johnson is the best we could do, for example, I'd rather just have a loser team, and keep trying via the free agency route, because sooner or later, it will succeed, even if it doesn't this summer. As long as we don't trade away anymore important picks, that is.

i wouldn't have been happy with a team of Joe Johnson & that group either... but that wouldn't have necessarily been the best we could have done... if we had Jordan Hill & ownership of both our picks in the next 2 seasons along with 2 expiring contracts, i think it gives DW some pieces to work deals with... if u count David Lee in a sign & trade type scenario, that gives u another options... it's not as cut & dry as saying if he hadn't made the trade to dump Fishlips' contract that we would have had to settle for Joe Johnson as our best player... i personally think DW would have had many different options open to him, from signing a max FA to putting together a trade package using the assets we used in the T-Mac deal to add another... he chose to put it all on the line so he could sign 2 max guys... we'll see if the plan works out.

I think DW looked at the possible scenarios if he kept Hill, Jared and the picks verses The cap space and felt it made more sense to put the team in position to improve exponentially in a short period of time. No matter how you try to frame it, none of those other options had the potential to improve the team as quickly as this move. MAYBE being able to use Hill in a trade along with picks isn't the same as having the ability to sign FA's outright regardless of the other team liking what you have to offer in a sign n trade or not. See if the other team doesn't want to deal you're still stuck. Perhaps DW explored interest in such deals and didn't get good responses.

His best play may be to get Lebron to agree to come and have Lebron talk to Bosh about joining him. The money thing is a bit problematic if the agent and Bosh want the 6th year, but maybe in the end they'll realize it's better to play with Lebron and win, than to worry about that money which could probably be made up for off the court if they are champions.

Papabear Says
It will take more than Lebron and Bosh to get us a ring. We need a Superstar point guard also in order to win it all. Also stay healthy.
Hey!! My 1,000th post.

Papabear
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alau53
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6/12/2010  12:41 PM
Papabear wrote:Papabear Says

It's water under the bridge. Here we are now with nothing and if lebron does not come and we only have so so players to pick from. Just hold on to the money and blow up the team and play some kids and tank the season.

the bad part of your scenario is unless we get lucky after tanking the season and get the 1st pick in '11 draft then we will be getting a higher rocket pick than a top 7 pick..when a season is bad you look forward to a high lottery pick..this will not be the case for us..thats why i see dw overspending on joe johnson just so the knicks will have a slightly better record to avoid the embarrassment on next yr draft day..plus johnson's agent is donnie's good friend who's also tmac's agent..donnie cares more for his friendships than the knicks franchise and their fans
ramtour420
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6/12/2010  3:08 PM
alau53 wrote:
Papabear wrote:Papabear Says

It's water under the bridge. Here we are now with nothing and if lebron does not come and we only have so so players to pick from. Just hold on to the money and blow up the team and play some kids and tank the season.

the bad part of your scenario is unless we get lucky after tanking the season and get the 1st pick in '11 draft then we will be getting a higher rocket pick than a top 7 pick..when a season is bad you look forward to a high lottery pick..this will not be the case for us..thats why i see dw overspending on joe johnson just so the knicks will have a slightly better record to avoid the embarrassment on next yr draft day..plus johnson's agent is donnie's good friend who's also tmac's agent..donnie cares more for his friendships than the knicks franchise and their fans

Whoa, hold your horses. Why would you say that?

Everything you have ever wanted is on the other side of fear- George Adair
nixluva
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6/12/2010  4:13 PM
ramtour420 wrote:
alau53 wrote:
Papabear wrote:Papabear Says

It's water under the bridge. Here we are now with nothing and if lebron does not come and we only have so so players to pick from. Just hold on to the money and blow up the team and play some kids and tank the season.

the bad part of your scenario is unless we get lucky after tanking the season and get the 1st pick in '11 draft then we will be getting a higher rocket pick than a top 7 pick..when a season is bad you look forward to a high lottery pick..this will not be the case for us..thats why i see dw overspending on joe johnson just so the knicks will have a slightly better record to avoid the embarrassment on next yr draft day..plus johnson's agent is donnie's good friend who's also tmac's agent..donnie cares more for his friendships than the knicks franchise and their fans

Whoa, hold your horses. Why would you say that?

Yeah that was a bit too harsh. DW has done right by us with his moves. He took all the heat for 2 years of losing and didn't bend from his plan to get us under the cap and not take on bad contracts. That takes a serious commitment. He says that he has plans beyond the Lebron/Bosh pot of gold. Who knows what he does, but since there are so many options I can't see being overly worried about anything just yet.

Johnson wouldn't be brought in as a savior type. So adding him isn't necessarily a bad move. You have to see who else Donnie brings in. The Celtics brought in Ray Allen when he was like 32 yrs old, he's gonna be 35 in July. Johnson is gonna be 29 the start of the next season. Thing is that his game isn't predicated on raw athleticism, so he will likely be very capable into his mid 30's. A 5 yr contract would actually be a good value for a player like that. JJ3 is 21.3, 4.9 asts, which is solid from the SG spot. I don't see him as a lead guy, but more like Ray Allen is for the Celts. A really effective piece to the puzzle. Espescially if they can get him for a slightly less than Max price. I don't know that is possible, but i'm sure DW will try to get him for less than Max.
stanleybostitch
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6/12/2010  5:04 PM
Papabear - thought I'd congratulate you with my (paltry) 100th post. I lurk more than I post, but have been following these boards for years now.
The new new core: Randle, RJ, IQ. Maybe Mitch. Future pick. Future trade. Future FA.
KNICKSdom
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6/12/2010  7:20 PM
Papabear wrote:Papabear Says

It's water under the bridge. Here we are now with nothing and if lebron does not come and we only have so so players to pick from. Just hold on to the money and blow up the team and play some kids and tank the season.

Knicksdombear Says

Can't tank next year, Houston get Knicks' pick. Must win this year, oh yes must win. Oh I want me some apples.

Knicks are happening and have a Unicorn.
nixluva
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6/12/2010  7:40 PM
Tanking is just not gonna happen. We can just forget that option. With this much cap space you can build a very good team this year and look to go even further next summer FA class. There is no real doomsday scenario IMO, cuz we can there will be options to add some talent this year and next. If it was just this FA class and nothing else, then I could see a reason to be scared. There will be so many teams looking to make deals and we can be involved in many of those discussions cuz we can take back more salary than we give.
sidsanders
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6/12/2010  8:08 PM
nixluva wrote:Tanking is just not gonna happen. We can just forget that option. With this much cap space you can build a very good team this year and look to go even further next summer FA class. There is no real doomsday scenario IMO, cuz we can there will be options to add some talent this year and next. If it was just this FA class and nothing else, then I could see a reason to be scared. There will be so many teams looking to make deals and we can be involved in many of those discussions cuz we can take back more salary than we give.

how many teams are looking to dump elite players? most are looking to dump arenas type of nut job or under performing players who have awful contracts (hence why taking back sal may look nice to some teams). why would walsh wanna take years to unload crap like that and take it back again? this is why i sure hope walsh doesnt add in lower tier players... i would rather the team stink then have a team of mis-matched talent thats overpaid and has no shot.

maybe there are some deals that arent gonna be like breaking your leg again after having them heal up...

GO TEAM VENTURE!!!!!
nixluva
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6/13/2010  1:19 AM    LAST EDITED: 6/13/2010  1:20 AM
sidsanders wrote:
nixluva wrote:Tanking is just not gonna happen. We can just forget that option. With this much cap space you can build a very good team this year and look to go even further next summer FA class. There is no real doomsday scenario IMO, cuz we can there will be options to add some talent this year and next. If it was just this FA class and nothing else, then I could see a reason to be scared. There will be so many teams looking to make deals and we can be involved in many of those discussions cuz we can take back more salary than we give.

how many teams are looking to dump elite players? most are looking to dump arenas type of nut job or under performing players who have awful contracts (hence why taking back sal may look nice to some teams). why would walsh wanna take years to unload crap like that and take it back again? this is why i sure hope walsh doesnt add in lower tier players... i would rather the team stink then have a team of mis-matched talent thats overpaid and has no shot.

maybe there are some deals that arent gonna be like breaking your leg again after having them heal up...

Some teams are just in cap hell. We can take a player that we want say Collison and a guy that the other team wants to clear off their cap, but that would be useful for us, like Emeka Ok4. It doesn't mean we have to do what Isiah did and just take on awful contracts and high risk players. There's a smart way to get good players that just don't fit into the plans of their team.

There is little chance that we'll take on players that stink just to fill out our roster. There are so many players that will be available that we should be able to get bench fillers that can play. Plus just the number of teams that will be looking to make changes should open up many possibilities.


Point Guards:
Raymond Felton (Unrestricted)
Luke Ridnour (Unrestricted)
Steve Blake (Unrestricted)
Chris Duhon (Unrestricted)
C.J. Watson (Restricted)
Kyle Lowry (Restricted)
T.J. Ford (player option for '10-'11 - owed 8.5 million)
J.J. Barea (Team Option - $1.8 million)
Nate Robinson (Unrestricted)
Mario Chalmers (Team Option)
Shaun Livingston (Unrestricted)
Sergio Rodriquez (Knicks can make QO – likely Unrestricted)
Earl Watson (Unrestricted)
Keyon Dooling (Team Option)
Jordan Farmar (Restricted)
Will Bynum (Restricted)
Derek Fisher (Unrestricted)
Mardy Collins (Restricted)
Sebastian Telfair (Player Option)
Marcus Williams (Restricted)
Speedy Claxton (Unrestricted)
Anthony Carter (Unrestricted)
Rafer Alston (Unrestricted)
Antonio Daniels (Unrestricted)
Acie Law (Unrestricted)
Travis Diener (Unrestricted)
Jannero Pargo (Unrestricted)
Chris Quinn (Unrestricted)
Mike James (Unrestricted)
Kevin Ollie (Unrestricted)
Jason Hart (Unrestricted)
Javaris Crittenton (Unrestricted)
Jason Williams (Unrestricted)
Sundiata Gaines (Unrestricted)
Carlos Arroyo (Unrestricted)
Bobby Brown (Unrestricted)
Jamaal Tinsley (Unrestricted)
Lester Hudson (Unrestricted)
Royal Ivey (Unrestricted)
Earl Boykins (Unrestricted)
Patrick Mills (Restricted)
Anthony Johnson (Unrestricted)
Chucky Atkins (Unrestricted)


Shooting Guards:
Dwyane Wade (Player Option - owed 17.0 million in 10/11)
Joe Johnson (Unrestricted)
Ray Allen (Unrestricted):
Kyle Korver (Unrestricted)
John Salmons (ETO - owed $5.8 million)
Roger Mason (Unrestricted)
J.J. Redick (Restricted)
Peja Stojakovic (ETO - owed $15.3 million)
Raja Bell (Unrestricted)
Michael Redd (ETO - owed $18.3 million in 10/11)
Anthony Morrow (Restricted)
Randy Foye (Restricted – If Wiz pick up $4.8 million Qualifying Offer)
Ronnie Brewer (Restricted)
Shannon Brown (PO – owed $2.2 million in 10/11)
Mo Evans (Player Option)
Luther Head (Unrestricted)
Damien Wilkins (Unrestricted)
Willie Green (ETO)
Sasha Pavlovic (Unrestricted)
Allen Iverson (Unrestricted)
Larry Hughes (Unrestricted)
Keith Bogans (Unrestricted)
Devin Brown (Unrestricted)
Quentin Richardson (Unrestricted)
Eddie House (Unrestricted)
Jason Kapono (Player Option)
Tony Allen (Unrestricted)
Jerry Stackhouse (Unrestricted)
DeShawn Stevenson (Player Option)
Ronald Murray (Unrestricted)
Michael Finley (Unrestricted)
Marquis Daniels (Team Option)
Trenton Hassell (Unrestricted)
Jarvis Hayes (Unrestricted)
Ricky Davis (Unrestricted)

Small Forwards:
LeBron James (Player Option - owed $17.2 million in 10/11)
Paul Pierce (ETO - owed $21.5 million in 10/11)
Rudy Gay (Restricted)
Tracy McGrady (Unrestricted)
Josh Howard (Wiz have a Team Option at $11.8 million in 10/11)
Richard Jefferson (ETO – owed $15 million)
Mike Miller (Unrestricted)
Travis Outlaw (Unrestricted)
Josh Childress (Restricted)
Grant Hill (PO - owed $3.3 million in 10/11)
Rasual Butler (Unrestricted)
Chris Douglas-Roberts (Team Option)
Craig Smith (Unrestricted)
Matt Barnes (Player Option)
Wes Matthews (Restricted)
Dorell Wright (Unrestricted)
Antoine Wright (Unrestricted)
Jawad Williams (Restricted)
Matt Harpring (Unrestricted)
Stephen Graham (Unrestricted)
Linas Kleiza (Restricted)
Jared Jeffries (ETO)
Quinton Ross (Player Option)
Ime Udoka (Unrestricted)
James Singleton (Unrestricted)
Bobby Simmons (Unrestricted)
Rodney Carney (Unrestricted)
Sonny Weems (Team Option)
Alando Tucker (Unrestricted)
Desmond Mason (Unrestricted)
Dominic McGuire (Restricted)
Devean George (Unrestricted)
Bill Walker (Team Option)
Vladimir Radmanovic (ETO)
Adam Morrison (Restricted)
James Jones (Team Option)
Taylor Griffin (Unrestricted)
Marcus Landry (Unrestricted)
Brian Scalabrine (Unrestricted)
J.R. Giddens (Unrestricted)
Yakhouba Diawara (Unrestricted)


Power Forwards:
Chris Bosh (Player Option - owed $17.1 million in 10/11)
Amar'e Stoudemire (Early Termination Option - owed $17.7 million in 10/11)
Dirk Nowitzki (ETO - owed $21.5 million in 10/11)
Carlos Boozer (Unrestricted)
David Lee (Unrestricted)
Udonis Haslem (Unrestricted)
Tyrus Thomas (Restricted)
Al Harrington (Unrestricted)
Drew Gooden (Unrestricted)
Hakim Warrick (Unrestricted)
Leon Powe (Team Option)
Kenyon Martin (ETO - owed $16.5 million in 10/11)
Joe Alexander (Unrestricted)
Darius Songaila (ETO)
Joe Smith (Unrestricted)
Anthony Tolliver (Unrestricted)
Oleksiy Pecherov (Unrestricted)
Chuck Hayes (Team Option)
Shelden Williams (Unrestricted)
Jonas Jerebko (Team Option)
Kurt Thomas (Unrestricted)
Matt Bonner (Unrestricted)
Kris Humphries (Player Option)
Juwan Howard (Unrestricted)
Sean May (Unrestricted)
Chris Wilcox (Player Option)
Shavlik Randolph (Unrestricted)
Jonathan Bender (Unrestricted)
Kenny Thomas (Unrestricted)
Ike Diogu (Unrestricted)
Brian Cook (Unrestricted)
Josh Boone (Restricted)
Sean Marks (Unrestricted)
Paul Davis (Unrestricted)
Joey Dorsey (Unrestricted)
Josh Powell (Unrestricted)
Nathan Jawai (Team Option)
Tim Thomas (Unrestricted)
Brian Cardinal (Unrestricted)
Mark Madsen (Unrestricted)

Centers:
Yao Ming (ETO - owed $17.7 million in 10/11)
Brandan Haywood (Unrestricted)
Luis Scola (Restricted)
Channing Frye (PO - owed $2.1 million in 10/11 – likely Unrestricted)
Louis Amundson (Unrestricted)
Tyson Chandler (ETO - owed $12.8 million in 10/11)
Amir Johnson (Unrestricted)
Zydrunas Ilgauskas (Unrestricted)
Jermaine O'Neal (Unrestricted)
Shaquille O'Neal (Unrestricted)
Brad Miller (Unrestricted)
Rasho Nesterovic (Unrestricted)
Ben Wallace (Unrestricted)
Fabricio Oberto (Unrestricted)
Johan Petro (Unrestricted)
Hilton Armstrong (Unrestricted)
Ian Mahinmi (Unrestricted)
Kwame Brown (Unrestricted)
Tony Battie (Unrestricted)
Sean Williams (Unrestricted)
Theo Ratliff (Unrestricted)
Etan Thomas (Unrestricted)
Joel Przybilla (ETO)
Nazr Mohammed (ETO)
Kyrylo Fesenko (Restricted)
Joel Anthony (Player Option)
Earl Barron (Unrestricted)
Mikki Moore (Unrestricted)
Adonal Foyle (Unrestricted)
Primo Brezec (Unrestricted)
Adonal Foyle (Unrestricted)
Jarron Collins (Unrestricted)
Jamaal Magloire (Unrestricted)
Patrick O'Bryant (Unrestricted)
Mark Blount (Unrestricted)
Pops Mensah-Bonsu (Restricted)
Aaron Gray (Unrestricted)
Steven Hunter (Unrestricted)
DJ Mbenga (Unrestricted)
Darko Milicic (Unrestricted)
Jerome James (Unrestricted)
sidsanders
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6/13/2010  1:27 AM
for all those guys listed, would you like to chase after many of them? i wouldnt want most of them, unless its short term or filling out the roster after scoring lbj.

though a lot of former scrub knicks are available!!!

GO TEAM VENTURE!!!!!
nixluva
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6/13/2010  1:43 AM
sidsanders wrote:for all those guys listed, would you like to chase after many of them? i wouldnt want most of them, unless its short term or filling out the roster after scoring lbj.

though a lot of former scrub knicks are available!!!

The point is that we should be able to land some top level talent as well as some useful bench players. The sheer number of FA's will actually bring their bargaining power down and make them cheaper to sign. It's like Musical Chairs. Someone isn't going to have a spot to land. This works in the Knicks favor.

As i've said there is no doomsday scenario here, just a bunch of Chicken Little's trying to scare the rest of us.
TMS
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6/13/2010  7:58 PM
sidsanders wrote:for all those guys listed, would you like to chase after many of them? i wouldnt want most of them, unless its short term or filling out the roster after scoring lbj.

though a lot of former scrub knicks are available!!!

agreed... there's really only 3 or 4 guys on the list of available FA's this summer that would warrant us making that T-Mac trade to free up the extra cap space to sign... otherwise IMO we would have been better off just keeping our picks, signing 1 max FA along with another midlevel type guy this summer & look to work some S&T deals.

After 7 years & 40K+ posts, banned by martin for calling Nalod a 'moron'. Awesome.
nixluva
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6/13/2010  10:31 PM
TMS wrote:
sidsanders wrote:for all those guys listed, would you like to chase after many of them? i wouldnt want most of them, unless its short term or filling out the roster after scoring lbj.

though a lot of former scrub knicks are available!!!

agreed... there's really only 3 or 4 guys on the list of available FA's this summer that would warrant us making that T-Mac trade to free up the extra cap space to sign... otherwise IMO we would have been better off just keeping our picks, signing 1 max FA along with another midlevel type guy this summer & look to work some S&T deals.

Man what is it with you? It's not about getting any of those FA's to "warrant" making the T-Mac trade!!! What the hell are you talking about. The fact that there are a ton of FA's available outside of the top guys is good for finding guys to help with the bench. Who in their right mind is thinking we'd be satisfied with a team of only guys left on the list after all the top players are gone? No one is even suggesting that it would be acceptable.

For the 10,000th time, the trade was made to give us the ability to sign 2 Max FA's outright. If that doesn't happen it doesn't invalidate the purpose of doing the deal in the 1st place. YOU HAVE TO MAKE THE DEAL TO HAVE THE ABILITY TO SIGN 2 MAX FA'S!!!!! IF you don't you have to rely on sign & trades ONLY and who's to say they want what you have to trade? With the cap space you can simply sign the players regardless of what the FA's team feels about what you have to trade.

To be able to seriously represent to FA's that you can bring in a pair of Max guys you couldn't say hey Lebron, we can possibly make a trade for Bosh, IF THE RAPS, accept what we offer. DO you want to come here? We can instead say, hey you wanna win titles, call your boy Bosh and tell him to come on over with you and we'll sign you both to Max deals and you know we'll take care of you down the line with big fat extensions.
TMS
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6/13/2010  10:55 PM
nixluva wrote:
TMS wrote:
sidsanders wrote:for all those guys listed, would you like to chase after many of them? i wouldnt want most of them, unless its short term or filling out the roster after scoring lbj.

though a lot of former scrub knicks are available!!!

agreed... there's really only 3 or 4 guys on the list of available FA's this summer that would warrant us making that T-Mac trade to free up the extra cap space to sign... otherwise IMO we would have been better off just keeping our picks, signing 1 max FA along with another midlevel type guy this summer & look to work some S&T deals.

Man what is it with you? It's not about getting any of those FA's to "warrant" making the T-Mac trade!!! What the hell are you talking about. The fact that there are a ton of FA's available outside of the top guys is good for finding guys to help with the bench. Who in their right mind is thinking we'd be satisfied with a team of only guys left on the list after all the top players are gone? No one is even suggesting that it would be acceptable.

For the 10,000th time, the trade was made to give us the ability to sign 2 Max FA's outright. If that doesn't happen it doesn't invalidate the purpose of doing the deal in the 1st place. YOU HAVE TO MAKE THE DEAL TO HAVE THE ABILITY TO SIGN 2 MAX FA'S!!!!! IF you don't you have to rely on sign & trades ONLY and who's to say they want what you have to trade? With the cap space you can simply sign the players regardless of what the FA's team feels about what you have to trade.

To be able to seriously represent to FA's that you can bring in a pair of Max guys you couldn't say hey Lebron, we can possibly make a trade for Bosh, IF THE RAPS, accept what we offer. DO you want to come here? We can instead say, hey you wanna win titles, call your boy Bosh and tell him to come on over with you and we'll sign you both to Max deals and you know we'll take care of you down the line with big fat extensions.

first of all you need to calm the fuk down & stop shouting at me like you know me... second, the statement i made is fair IMO & completely warranted... if you haven't noticed i'm not the only one on these forums who feels this way regarding the T-Mac trade... it's called a difference of opinion... not everyone looks through rose colored glasses like you.

After 7 years & 40K+ posts, banned by martin for calling Nalod a 'moron'. Awesome.
nixluva
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6/13/2010  11:14 PM
TMS wrote:
nixluva wrote:
TMS wrote:
sidsanders wrote:for all those guys listed, would you like to chase after many of them? i wouldnt want most of them, unless its short term or filling out the roster after scoring lbj.

though a lot of former scrub knicks are available!!!

agreed... there's really only 3 or 4 guys on the list of available FA's this summer that would warrant us making that T-Mac trade to free up the extra cap space to sign... otherwise IMO we would have been better off just keeping our picks, signing 1 max FA along with another midlevel type guy this summer & look to work some S&T deals.

Man what is it with you? It's not about getting any of those FA's to "warrant" making the T-Mac trade!!! What the hell are you talking about. The fact that there are a ton of FA's available outside of the top guys is good for finding guys to help with the bench. Who in their right mind is thinking we'd be satisfied with a team of only guys left on the list after all the top players are gone? No one is even suggesting that it would be acceptable.

For the 10,000th time, the trade was made to give us the ability to sign 2 Max FA's outright. If that doesn't happen it doesn't invalidate the purpose of doing the deal in the 1st place. YOU HAVE TO MAKE THE DEAL TO HAVE THE ABILITY TO SIGN 2 MAX FA'S!!!!! IF you don't you have to rely on sign & trades ONLY and who's to say they want what you have to trade? With the cap space you can simply sign the players regardless of what the FA's team feels about what you have to trade.

To be able to seriously represent to FA's that you can bring in a pair of Max guys you couldn't say hey Lebron, we can possibly make a trade for Bosh, IF THE RAPS, accept what we offer. DO you want to come here? We can instead say, hey you wanna win titles, call your boy Bosh and tell him to come on over with you and we'll sign you both to Max deals and you know we'll take care of you down the line with big fat extensions.

first of all you need to calm the fuk down & stop shouting at me like you know me... second, the statement i made is fair IMO & completely warranted... if you haven't noticed i'm not the only one on these forums who feels this way regarding the T-Mac trade... it's called a difference of opinion... not everyone looks through rose colored glasses like you.

Yeah whatever man. Save the tough talk. Anyway, what you were proposing isn't accurate. The failure to land one of the top FA's is separate from the act of putting yourself in position to actually SIGN 2 MAX FA's. The course of action is separate from the result. You can't invalidate the act of putting your team in position to be a major player in FA, based on the result. The fact is that you can't offer something you don't have. With the cap space DW has the hammer of being able to offer spots to 2 of the top players outright and that freedom from having to involve the home team puts the team in a higher position than if they have no recourse but to beg the other team to make a deal with them. This has nothing to do with opinions, it's just a fact. You not liking the move is a matter of opinion and you're welcome to disagree with the choice. My contention is that you can't tho, invalidate the reason for the move based on who actually signs. Whether it's Lebron/Bosh, Boozer/Johnson, Dirk/Lee etc. The point is that we can sign 2 Maxes outright, which we couldn't do before the trade.
sidsanders
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6/14/2010  12:10 AM    LAST EDITED: 6/14/2010  12:12 AM
why is this --> "You can't invalidate the act of putting your team in position to be a major player in FA, based on the result."

to me you sure can... buying 10000 lotto tickets given the context of being broke, and not winning the lotto. great you gave yourself better odds. however you lost (can apply this to tanking for the nba lotto). for sure not an equivalent analogy. it almost reads as if walsh cant fail, even if he kinda does.

putting yourself in a position to do well is good to a certain degree, however you need to capitalize on it. coaches and gm's get fired in all sports all the time for failing to capitalize on opportunities. i dont think its gonna happen that walsh will be graded well on creating chances, and then not being able to close on major guys --> that is, he created the chance, and didnt capitalize. i dont see walsh getting smoked if this offseason doesnt go as hoped.


give that line some more context perhaps: given how crummy this team has been, you cant be too concerned with missing out... they have some other routes available still which may result in some positive gains, if not now then 2011 and beyond.

GO TEAM VENTURE!!!!!
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6/14/2010  12:36 AM
nixluva wrote:The failure to land one of the top FA's is separate from the act of putting yourself in position to actually SIGN 2 MAX FA's. The course of action is separate from the result. You can't invalidate the act of putting your team in position to be a major player in FA, based on the result. The fact is that you can't offer something you don't have. With the cap space DW has the hammer of being able to offer spots to 2 of the top players outright and that freedom from having to involve the home team puts the team in a higher position than if they have no recourse but to beg the other team to make a deal with them. This has nothing to do with opinions, it's just a fact.

that's the most ridiculous thing i've ever heard... go back to shouting, at least you were good for a laugh.

After 7 years & 40K+ posts, banned by martin for calling Nalod a 'moron'. Awesome.
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6/14/2010  12:47 AM
As it turns out we are in the running along with the Cavs and Bulls at the top of the list and it's directly because of the ability to give Lebron a Max level partner. Every means to improve your team is fraught with the possibility of failure, the Nets couldn't control the lottery balls and missed a chance to get the #1 pick. In the end Lebron could choose another team, but the decision to put us in prime position to get him made perfect sense regardless. No TMac trade, no Real shot at Lebron.

We don't know what plan B,C or D is but if we end up having to settle for that, it still was the right way to play it in order to give us the best possible shot to land Lebron. What would fans say if he didn't do everything he could to try and get Lebron?
sidsanders
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6/14/2010  1:04 AM
nixluva wrote:As it turns out we are in the running along with the Cavs and Bulls at the top of the list and it's directly because of the ability to give Lebron a Max level partner. Every means to improve your team is fraught with the possibility of failure, the Nets couldn't control the lottery balls and missed a chance to get the #1 pick. In the end Lebron could choose another team, but the decision to put us in prime position to get him made perfect sense regardless. No TMac trade, no Real shot at Lebron.

We don't know what plan B,C or D is but if we end up having to settle for that, it still was the right way to play it in order to give us the best possible shot to land Lebron. What would fans say if he didn't do everything he could to try and get Lebron?

there will be limits like if lbj wants to bring in his own coach or some other nonesense. still, hate to break out the alec baldwin deal: ABC, always be closing. walsh doesnt have to close every deal. however given the risk assumed, he needs to close something. recall before that last move, it wasnt about lbj alone (so walsh indicated). i think that move was the "all in for lbj". i can applaud his intent, however results do matter. i cant say its unfair, it comes with the job of a gm -- being graded harshly or well depending on results, not intentions.

i agree we have no idea on the fall back routes. for the last part... folks are gonna complain no matter what. folks are on here trying to psyche themselves out of wanting lbj cuz they figure he wont sign. i think walsh knows he will get grilled for anything less than a contending type of team. and he may not like it however he seems like a pro. i dont think in the end he will be fired regardless of what the fans say and regardless of what happens this offseason. he cleared out lots of crummy contracts/players. thats bought him some time and options to build up something.

GO TEAM VENTURE!!!!!
nixluva
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6/14/2010  1:45 AM
What is the risk DW took that would make this not worth going for it? Swapping a pick and givin up a pick 2 yrs from now? Sending away Hill for the chance to land an All Star? Each of those chips only represent potential. You don't know if the player we would end up with would be good or bad. The cap space will give us a chance to bring in proven talent both this year and possibly next yr depending on how things go. Giving up Hill and a pick isn't the end of the world. Those two players won't likely be the thing that sets us back another decade as some are suggesting. That's just alarmist BS! Hill and a 2012 pick is gonna ruin our franchise? COME ON!!!
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