TMS wrote:

Juice wrote:

TMS wrote:

fishmike wrote:its awsome. Pre-trade Hill = massive miskate and bust. Post-trade Hill = player we mismanged and cant live without

speak for yourself... some of us have been high on Jordan Hill from the very beginning & calling for him to get a real chance to play in this system since day one.

I think Hill is a souped up Mikki Moore but we never even got a chance to see if he was just a plain ole original Mikki Moore.

everytime i hear the Mikki Moore & Chris Wilcox comparisons i SMH... Jordan Hill is way more active than Chris Wilcox & he's way more of a physical player in the paint than Mikki Moore.

I'm referring to Mikki Moore New Jersey Nets and if you throw Chris Wilcox A.K.A. Amar'e Lite in the mix then it's The Sonic one, 1rst season. I think Hill can be a 15/8 type of player not 20/10 BPA @ 8. Problem is we didn't even see if he could be Dan Gaduzrich from the Bucks

TMS wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:

Cosmic wrote:

Markji wrote:It's times like this that I wish we had Isiah ....uh NO!
Layden .... Uh, NO!

When was the last time we had someone in management who did something well? Probably the Spree trade.

When we get LeBron, we will forget how bad this trade was because LeBron will single-handedly win 5 Championships for us??? Just poorly executed management and coaching.

Ok, so I read this post. And I do like reading your posts and POV.

But now I have to ask. What did you/do you envision Jordan Hill doing in the NBA?

12/8?
20/10/2 blocks?
Sweetney?
Duncan?

I mean, what do you see? (And everyone that's so irate over dropping this guy).

Franchise building block?
15 min per night 9th man?

What do you see?

...it's an honest question.

Was the Jeffries trade excessive? Yes, it was. To drop 10M in salary you give up your 8th pick from a previous draft (which, btw, I still maintain we essentially used Hill - to get rid of Hill [2.7M]), the 2011 swap, that's fine, but the 2012 pick is the one that was too much.

Regardless what I try to do is look at the entire body of work. The entire 2 year tear down of the roster.

What did we give up to drop 100M in salary?

Mardy Collins, Jordan Hill, 2011 swap, 2012 pick.

When you think of it that way, and you ask yourself "What would I do to have a shot at 2 of LeBron, Amare, Wade, Bosh, JJ, Boozer, etc?" - if someone said that's all it would cost?

There isn't a single fan on this or any forum that wouldn't give up what we gave up to have that shot.

To me, that's the bottom line. What did I give up in TOTAL to get rid of all that trash? In the end, not much. You look at the single trade and yes it WAS excessive. But you look at the entire body of work? Quite a fair price in the end.

And that's the point: THE BODY OF WORK.

The whole thing.

Now, let's see what they do with it... the flexibility. Let's see what happens over the next 2 years. Before we go nuts.

Jordan Hill. Jordan freakin Hill. Knick fans are robbing banks, punching out their girlfriends, throwing old ladies down stairs, and burning down fast food restaurants over Jordan Hill? Really? JORDAN HILL!?!?!?!?

Good LORD have we fallen or what this decade. Jordan freakin Hill. If I shake my head any more it's going to fly off through my wall and kill a next door neighbor.

Jordan Hill. Roberson. Morris. Sweetney. Butler. Yeah, they all have something in common. Some random Knick fan butters them up as a franchise building block and tries to murder everyone who disagrees.

Talk about the strange and bizarre.

Jordan Hill. LMFAO. As if we had only played him we'd have 50 wins or something. We wouldn't even have 21 for crying out loud. Dude's a hack.

Charles Oakley was replaced with Kurt Thomas eventually. Oakley made Thomas look like TRASH. Agree?

Kurt Thomas would bend Hill over his knee and spank him like a child.

...that's what we're dealing with here. Jordan Hill.

Okay, I'm done ranting on the topic. Long live JordanDuncanKareemKevinGarnettWiltChamberlainShaqEwingMaloneHill.

Cosmic--when you watch that video--does he look like a guy who could possibly be pretty darn good one day? He looks big athletic he's got good body control touch active looks like he knows how to play --how does someone come to conclusion this guy scks before he is given a chance? I mean watch the tape

don't waste your time... Cosmic has already come to the conclusion this 22 year old kid is a bust & there's nothing u can do or say to convince him otherwise... he clearly has a better handle on judging NBA talent than mere mortal NBA scouts... 24 games of sporadic play & seeing this kid twisting his hair on the sidelines is all he needs to see... BUST! stop whining!

We need more assets to build a championship team and Walsh traded away too many of them; Hill being one of them. My point on Lebron is that he has been with Cleveland for 6years and hasn't won a championship. The reason is LeBron needs a team around him. If we were to get LeBron, we still need other players, and we don't have them. We traded away assets which could bring us the supporting players.

My frustration lies in the fact that has been stated here. Walsh's bargaining was horrible, but more importantly, he should have traded Jeffries last year once he had traded Zach and Jamal. He was "all in" at that point and should have jettisoned Jeffries then. Don't you think we could have traded Jeffries for someone like Brian Cardinal whose salary matched but ends this year. or packaged him withNate...or someone....anything.

The other frustration is that MDA seems to be too emotional and not logical when dealing with players. He hasn't helped Walsh trade or develop assets. He benched Marbury ...for what reason?? He doesn't play and develop our 2 rookies this year, especially when we were stinking it up; He benched Nate; he benched Eddy C; He played Duhon all of the time; and I think it was MDA who wanted Roberson badly and so we signed him after 1 game of good shooting in SL. Maybe MDA is a good coach with good players, but he hasn't shown to be a good coach here. And I do like his style of play and I don't buy into this "He doesn't play any defense" crap.

Re: Hill - he was a young asset. He hardly ever played and was traded away for no good reason as Jeffries should have been let go of earlier. It doesn't matter if Hill becomes a good player or not. He was a #8 pick by Walsh. Either a long-term asset to keep; or a player to trade and get something good in return.

I will change my opinion of the Nate trade and compliment Walsh. I blasted him for not getting a pick back, but with the way Walker plays and his potential to grow, Walker actually substitutes for a pick and he could turn out really fine for us.

TMS wrote:
i agree, i don't think he was BPA at #8, but i do think he's going to be a good player in this league... definitely more than some 9th man off the bench scrub like some people are suggesting around here... i think he'll make a very solid starting PF/C & definitely could have filled in some useful minutes for us this season... we wasted an entire year & gave away a prospect that we really should have been developing for nothing but $6 mil in cap space... that's a joke of epic proportions... on top of it we threw in swap rights & a future pick for good measure... how the hell can anyone justify a trade like that unless we have a guarantee that Lebron will sign here this summer? if we had played Jordan Hill from the start maybe we don't even have to include those picks to swing this T-Mac deal to begin with? but no, we had to pump up Fishlips' trade value instead & failed miserably in the process.

I don't know how will Hill turn out. My point is we never had a chance to find out. The way to develop players, especially big men, is to coach them up in practice, play them when there is a favorable match up, run a couple of plays for them, build the kid's confidence, sit them up and talk to them. After a summer of honing their skills, you repeat and extend their playing time and see what you have. So much for that.
The plan, we were told, was to draft Hill to hedge against Lee leaving. They changed their mind in mid stream and decided that Lee is not only worth more than Hill but is worth Hill + picks. Make up your mind. Either you should not have drafted a PF or stay with the plan and develop him.

Cosmic wrote:Typical.

Dude's on another team, finally has a good game, and the world has ended.

LOL.

Hill's a scrub. 8th man backup player at best some day. Whooptie doo. Like Sweetney and Butler never had 12/8 in a game. I guess they were superstars that were wrongly traded/cut as well.

Anyone who would keep Hill over a chance to grab Bosh is flat out crazy. But that's what we do (on knick forums) don't we. Eagerly wait for a problem and then pounce on it and go nuts and whine.

Papabear Says
Cosmic I want to see your reaction when Bosh don't come here.

TMS wrote:

nixluva wrote:TMS it all depends on how much you value Hill and the Pick. I liked Hill's talent and got killed for suggesting that he had similar athletic ability to Amare tho obviously he's not at that level right now. Still I think for DW it comes down to the time factor. He's not really willing to wait on him and feels he can get a player to replace him that is already at the level the team needs. Whether that's Bosh or Amare it's hard to argue that they are worth going for.

Some have suggested that it's only worth it if we end up with Lebron, but that's crazy thinking since we had enough money for Lebron if he was really hard on coming. This is about doing more than that. The Hill move was to add some extra space to do more than just bring in Lebron. It's entirely worth it if you expect to get a proven talent.

the problem i have w/this whole ****up of a trade is if we had no plans on developing our lottery pick, why didn't we just dump the pick last year to get rid of Curry or Fishlips' contract instead of waiting a year just to dump it & have to throw in 2 additional 1st round pick rights on top of it... it's just a completely inept management of assets, there's no if's and's or but's about it.

You're assuming that DW had already made up his mind on it that early. Perhaps DW wanted to see what the pick turned out to be. If it was Curry then i'm sure we aren't talking about this kind of move. With TD and Hill, I don't think the commitment to them was as strong. Not if you're talking about bringing in guys that are proven. There are so many other moves that DW could've made and i'm not saying that he didn't make mistakes, but I do understand his move in this case.

let's face it, the Knicks had no fallback plan going into the draft or going into this summer... Donnie Walsh is winging it & making moves on the fly, just taking things as they come & has no real idea what's going to happen this summer & hasn't set up any contingency plans to fall back on if they don't work out exactly as he hopes they will... he's selling us on "flexibility" & "2011" already because he knows there's a good chance Lebron, Wade or Bosh don't end up signing here this summer... he gave up assets he really shouldn't have had to give up to unload Fishlips contract if he had taken the time to think things out more clearly from the second he took this job to begin with... he was proactive when he traded Zach & Jamal & didn't have to unload assets in the process... he should have taken the same proactive approach when trying to unload Fishlips & Curry last year... instead he completely miscalculated the fact that Fishlips would have no value no matter how much MDA featured him in this offense & we ended up having to pay through the nose to get rid of him at the 11th hour in a complete panic move... bottomline, we got owned in this trade by the Rockets & they got some nice assets from us that they'll be able to use in trades this summer while we're waiting outside Lebron's door hoping he'll sign on the dotted line, something we could have been doing even if we hadn't made this trade to begin with.

& what options will we have to make trades with at the deadline when we have no picks to offer up in a deal? you offer up all these optimistic scenarios & fail to consider we no longer own the types of assets we need to make any sort of impact trade with... we already blew our load w/this all in maneuver to clear Fishlips' salary off the books... Gallo & Wilson will be our only tradeable commodities next season & if you're already short on any decent players as it is... i'm not being cynical, this is reality.

TMac, Bosh, JJ3, Gallo N Chan will win you 40-45 wins next year, max... that's the Toronto Raptors redux pretty much, only the Raps still own their lottery pick... & what other assets do we have other than Gallo & Chan next year to make deals with to improve on that? Eddy Curry's expiring won't net us jack... we've had tons of expiring contracts be bought out for nothing in return in recent years, what makes u think anything will change next season?

i'm telling u T-Mac won't sign here for no minimum salary... it ain't happenin'... u can choose to believe me or not, that's up to u... i'd be willing to put money on it... even Grant Hill got $3 mil with a player option.

Josh Boone is your idea of options? dude, he can barely crack the rotation on the worst team in the history of basketball... u just reinforced my point i made about the level of players we'd be looking at on minimum salary contracts.

Now on our team that you think would only win 40-45 games with TMac, Bosh, JJ3, Gallo N Chan, any players we add will have a lot less on their shoulders. I would disagree that we'd only be about a .500 team with those players by the way.

dude, before this season u thought this team we had was a 45 win team that would challenge for the playoffs... i told u we'd be lucky to win 35 & u told me i was being overly cynical.

TMS wrote:

don't waste your time... Cosmic has already come to the conclusion this 22 year old kid is a bust & there's nothing u can do or say to convince him otherwise... he clearly has a better handle on judging NBA talent than mere mortal NBA scouts... 24 games of sporadic play & seeing this kid twisting his hair on the sidelines is all he needs to see... BUST! stop whining!

Age has nothing to do with skill. When you speak on those terms that means every 22 y/o kid can be special. They can't.

Hill plays basketball because someone forced him to. "Hey you're tall play basketball."

He doesn't play because he loves the game he plays because he can. Seems to have worked out now that he's a multi-millionaire.

Good for him.

But people don't pan out when they're forced to do something. And he won't.

"He's young."
"Big men take time to develop."

These are age old excuses for a player that sucks.