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Bippity10
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7/21/2009  10:37 AM
Posted by jazz74:

i too was confident about 2010 but then i see some b level free agents this year refusing us it causes me to doubt. we need a competitive team this year, straight up. we dont have a first round pick so even if we suck we wont get "rewarded" and we have to be competitive for the free agents to say, "hey, we have a chance to win" in a league that i think is close to parody anyway.

1 year removed from being the most embarrassing franchise in the world, why did we think free-agents would be clamoring to come here? Come on, we all had to know rebuilding would not be easy. The rest is just fantasy.

We are in the game to get Lebron or Wade. It would be irresponsible not to be(unless you can acquire another star through trade). But it's a long shot. If it doesn't work, we are still where we were going to be anyway. A team that is rebuilding around young building blocks(#6, #8 and #23 picks in the draft). If you don't get a big name free-agent then everyone here gets their wish. A young team, with potential that will stink and will continue to be in the lottery.

Or what we can do is continue to trade expirings for semi-all stars and win 30-40 games every year.
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McK1
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7/21/2009  10:37 AM
Posted by Bippity10:
Posted by McK1:
Posted by Bippity10:
Posted by knicks1248:

I think what most of us who agree on the subject, believe that walsh could have got a better deal done had he been a little more patient..

Then you keep telling the fans that you really want to stay competetive and make the playoff and yet your assembling a roster of a bunch of lame duck players. I mean I really don't see why it would be wrong to seek out a trade for atleast an all star, instead of seeking a 1 year back ups who's heart won't be in it. The same way he jump to get rid of players is the same way he can aquire better talent..we literaly have 12 back ups on our roster.

What are you giving up to get that all-star talent?

expirings for Baron

So you are assuming that's all Los Angeles wants. You're also assuming that this conversation has never occured. So let's leave those assumptions out there and just say they are true.

What does Baron do for us?

sures up the pg spot for the next 3-4 years with a premier playmaker
star power
leadership

the stop underrating David Lee movement 1. FIRE MIKE 2. HIRE MULLIN 3. PAY AVERY 4. FREE NATE!!!
Bippity10
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7/21/2009  10:38 AM
Posted by Bippity10:
Posted by McK1:
Posted by Bippity10:
Posted by knicks1248:

I think what most of us who agree on the subject, believe that walsh could have got a better deal done had he been a little more patient..

Then you keep telling the fans that you really want to stay competetive and make the playoff and yet your assembling a roster of a bunch of lame duck players. I mean I really don't see why it would be wrong to seek out a trade for atleast an all star, instead of seeking a 1 year back ups who's heart won't be in it. The same way he jump to get rid of players is the same way he can aquire better talent..we literaly have 12 back ups on our roster.

What are you giving up to get that all-star talent?

expirings for Baron

So you are assuming that's all Los Angeles wants. You're also assuming that this conversation has never occured. So let's leave those assumptions out there and just say they are true.

What does Baron do for us?

A follow up question, how does this differ from Isiah's typical move? How does it differ from the acquisition of Marbury? Is the next step to trade draft picks for an overweight center with potential?
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NYKBocker
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7/21/2009  10:41 AM
Little late in this thread and read the first 3 pages. Man, it really is true that you can't rebuild in NY. Like GKFv2 stated above, how the heck are you going to accumulate assets when nobody wants your previous inventory. Walsh needed a fire sale to get rid of all the bad contracts and he did.

The Godfather has a plan and he is playing it perfectly in my opinion. Far cry from Popcorn Man where he changes his plan like he changed his shorts.

He is in second year and now we have a future that I think everyone can agree has a chance that it might work. That is all that I can ask for.

Entertaining team? This is an entertaining team to me right now. I love that I can see that both Walsh and D'Antoni has a plan and they are sticking to it no matter what.

We have a 2010 plan and if we don't get LeBron, Wade or other supposed superstars. FARK them!! I don't want them here if they don't want to be here. At least we have options now.
fishmike
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7/21/2009  10:41 AM
Posted by McK1:
Posted by Bippity10:
Posted by knicks1248:

I think what most of us who agree on the subject, believe that walsh could have got a better deal done had he been a little more patient..

Then you keep telling the fans that you really want to stay competetive and make the playoff and yet your assembling a roster of a bunch of lame duck players. I mean I really don't see why it would be wrong to seek out a trade for atleast an all star, instead of seeking a 1 year back ups who's heart won't be in it. The same way he jump to get rid of players is the same way he can aquire better talent..we literaly have 12 back ups on our roster.

What are you giving up to get that all-star talent?

expirings for Baron
awesome... lets skip out on any chance of FAs next year and build our team around a 30 year PG with weight issues and health problems signed long term for massive money that shot 37% from the field last year. After all... fans to pay to see cap space, right Isiah?

"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
McK1
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7/21/2009  10:45 AM
Posted by Bippity10:



What does Baron do for us?


A follow up question, how does this differ from Isiah's typical move? How does it differ from the acquisition of Marbury? Is the next step to trade draft picks for an overweight center with potential?

Sures up the pg spot for the next 3-4 years with a premier playmaker
star power
leadership

Isiah gave up 2 picks for Steph and took back Penny's huge contract.

Davis has proven he can lead teams to the play-offs

No. The next step would be to have Davis boost the overweight center with potential we already haves value out of the sewer
the stop underrating David Lee movement 1. FIRE MIKE 2. HIRE MULLIN 3. PAY AVERY 4. FREE NATE!!!
Bippity10
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7/21/2009  10:49 AM
Posted by McK1:
Posted by Bippity10:



What does Baron do for us?


A follow up question, how does this differ from Isiah's typical move? How does it differ from the acquisition of Marbury? Is the next step to trade draft picks for an overweight center with potential?

Sures up the pg spot for the next 3-4 years with a premier playmaker
star power
leadership

Isiah gave up 2 picks for Steph and took back Penny's huge contract.

Davis has proven he can lead teams to the play-offs

No. The next step would be to have Davis boost the overweight center with potential we already haves value out of the sewer

You are back to your assumptions again. You are assuming that LA who just signed Baron to a five year contract to lead them(and their number 1 draft pick) to another team for expirings. If he's as good as you say, wouldn't they want to keep him or get draft picks for him?

As for the rest of it, See Fishmike's response. That was word for word what I was going to write. For someone else maybe Baron is helpful. For a rebuilding team, Baron does nothing for you. He's a name. He's Marbury with a better attitude. He's not leading you anywhere. He would be the definition of Starphuch. We need to move on from that philosophy.
I just hope that people will like me
NYKBocker
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7/21/2009  10:50 AM
Posted by McK1:
Posted by Bippity10:



What does Baron do for us?


A follow up question, how does this differ from Isiah's typical move? How does it differ from the acquisition of Marbury? Is the next step to trade draft picks for an overweight center with potential?

Sures up the pg spot for the next 3-4 years with a premier playmaker
star power
leadership

Isiah gave up 2 picks for Steph and took back Penny's huge contract.

Davis has proven he can lead teams to the play-offs

No. The next step would be to have Davis boost the overweight center with potential we already haves value out of the sewer

Baron Davis is a good player but like Walsh said, players are only really good with respect to their contract or at a certain number. Baron is getting up there in years has health issues and just signed an albatross contract. That's a triple threat.
McK1
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7/21/2009  10:50 AM
Posted by fishmike:


awesome... lets skip out on any chance of FAs next year and build our team around a 30 year PG with weight issues and health problems signed long term for massive money that shot 37% from the field last year. After all... fans to pay to see cap space, right Isiah?

signing a max FA all hinges on renouncing Nate and Lee. NY doesn't then they aren't signing anyone anyway

[Edited by - McK1 on 07-21-2009 10:51 AM]
the stop underrating David Lee movement 1. FIRE MIKE 2. HIRE MULLIN 3. PAY AVERY 4. FREE NATE!!!
Bippity10
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7/21/2009  10:53 AM
Posted by McK1:
Posted by fishmike:


awesome... lets skip out on any chance of FAs next year and build our team around a 30 year PG with weight issues and health problems signed long term for massive money that shot 37% from the field last year. After all... fans to pay to see cap space, right Isiah?

signing a max FA all hinges on renouncing Nate and Lee. NY doesn't then they aren't signing anyone anyway

[Edited by - McK1 on 07-21-2009 10:51 AM]

signing a free agent will take some maneuvering, luck and of course some fantasy sprinkles from a fairy. That doesn't mean you give up and sign a Baron Davis to lead you. You'd be better off letting Tony Douglas run the point and flub the ball all over the court every night.
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McK1
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7/21/2009  10:59 AM
Posted by Bippity10:



You are back to your assumptions again. You are assuming that LA who just signed Baron to a five year contract to lead them(and their number 1 draft pick) to another team for expirings. If he's as good as you say, wouldn't they want to keep him or get draft picks for him?

Bip you said ok lets assume Baron could be had for expirings
Posted by Bippity10:



So you are assuming that's all Los Angeles wants. You're also assuming that this conversation has never occured. So let's leave those assumptions out there and just say they are true.



the stop underrating David Lee movement 1. FIRE MIKE 2. HIRE MULLIN 3. PAY AVERY 4. FREE NATE!!!
martin
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7/21/2009  11:13 AM
Are we talking about Baron Davis who for the last 7 years misses 20 games a season who is signed for 5 more years?

The same dude who shoots about the same amount as jamal Crawford and makes about the same %?

Who shoots 30% from 3point land?

Does he even play defense?
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TMS
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7/21/2009  11:16 AM
Posted by NYKBocker:
Posted by TMS:
Posted by GKFv2:

No. I'm not a rocket scientist but apparently you are Nostradamus.

was Nostradamus a rocket scientist? i didn't know they had rockets back in his day.

rockets were invented in china..duh.

i never knew Nostradamus was Chinese... wow, u learn something new everyday.
After 7 years & 40K+ posts, banned by martin for calling Nalod a 'moron'. Awesome.
TMS
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7/21/2009  11:17 AM
Posted by Bippity10:
Posted by jazz74:

i too was confident about 2010 but then i see some b level free agents this year refusing us it causes me to doubt. we need a competitive team this year, straight up. we dont have a first round pick so even if we suck we wont get "rewarded" and we have to be competitive for the free agents to say, "hey, we have a chance to win" in a league that i think is close to parody anyway.

1 year removed from being the most embarrassing franchise in the world, why did we think free-agents would be clamoring to come here? Come on, we all had to know rebuilding would not be easy. The rest is just fantasy.

We are in the game to get Lebron or Wade. It would be irresponsible not to be(unless you can acquire another star through trade). But it's a long shot. If it doesn't work, we are still where we were going to be anyway. A team that is rebuilding around young building blocks(#6, #8 and #23 picks in the draft). If you don't get a big name free-agent then everyone here gets their wish. A young team, with potential that will stink and will continue to be in the lottery.

Or what we can do is continue to trade expirings for semi-all stars and win 30-40 games every year.

Bip, it doesn't matter how many times u repeat the same stuff & reason out why the old plan of action wasn't working, some people just wanna complain for the sake of complaining.
After 7 years & 40K+ posts, banned by martin for calling Nalod a 'moron'. Awesome.
fishmike
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7/21/2009  11:22 AM
Posted by McK1:
Posted by fishmike:


awesome... lets skip out on any chance of FAs next year and build our team around a 30 year PG with weight issues and health problems signed long term for massive money that shot 37% from the field last year. After all... fans to pay to see cap space, right Isiah?

signing a max FA all hinges on renouncing Nate and Lee. NY doesn't then they aren't signing anyone anyway

[Edited by - McK1 on 07-21-2009 10:51 AM]
Thats not really true. Mostly it depends on what the Knicks do this offseason. Your assuming we sign a MLE player like Session, and CANT move JJ OR Eddie. Even if Walsh cant move Eddie or JJ (he will move one for expirings, bet your buck on that he will) we can still sign a max FA by letting Nate and Lee walk, AND use the MLE this year. We have crunched the #s a 100 times. The cash is there.

So whats your point? Lebron says "I want to play in NY." And we say sorry... we really really dont want to renounce Lee and Nate.

Or worse yet... we CANT sign him because he have the PG role filled for the next 3 years with Baron Davis.

Isiah's plan was this. Get the best talented veterans to win now regardless of cost of length of contract. I'm ready to see what the next guy has

"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
McK1
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7/21/2009  11:25 AM
Posted by martin:

Are we talking about Baron Davis who for the last 7 years misses 20 games a season who is signed for 5 more years?

The same dude who shoots about the same amount as jamal Crawford and makes about the same %?

Who shoots 30% from 3point land?

Does he even play defense?

jason kidd's career fg% is?
Barons is a percentage point hire.

Injury concern yes.

he is signed for 4 more years

for his careerr he avg's 2 stls a game and 4 rebounds.

he shoots a low percentage on 3's but he still gives you 2 a game. He also gets to the free throw line 5 times a game 5 years straight
the stop underrating David Lee movement 1. FIRE MIKE 2. HIRE MULLIN 3. PAY AVERY 4. FREE NATE!!!
Bippity10
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7/21/2009  11:35 AM
Posted by McK1:
Posted by Bippity10:



You are back to your assumptions again. You are assuming that LA who just signed Baron to a five year contract to lead them(and their number 1 draft pick) to another team for expirings. If he's as good as you say, wouldn't they want to keep him or get draft picks for him?

Bip you said ok lets assume Baron could be had for expirings
Posted by Bippity10:



So you are assuming that's all Los Angeles wants. You're also assuming that this conversation has never occured. So let's leave those assumptions out there and just say they are true.



You are correct I did say that. For our conversation and entertainment, assumptions are fair. But for criticism of management, assumptions don't hold water. As long as we both understand that we can carry on.

Baron does nothing for us. He places us back in that category of pretending that we are one player away from a title. Still bad, but we can dream.
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knicks1248
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7/21/2009  11:36 AM
So what your saying is making a trade for an all star would be a bad one no matter what..that's the confidence you have in walsh..IT's problem was he gave up to much..then u see paul get traded for kwame...and wonder why we can't get a deal done like that..

The funny thing about how gms think..Eisley, shannon,and spoon were all back ups who came from a winning enviroment..both eisley and shannon were 2 years remove from the finals, and spoon had been through the trenches with the heat, They were just grossly overpaid and became complete loser in a knick uni.Then you see walsh and mike do the same think with cap freindly contracts and get the same results and he's the best gm ever. Now expiring contracts can be a good asset especially in this economy, but you got utilize them...we can wait let the contracts fall of the books watch the supers stars and all stars re up with there own, then be force sign a few avg players in whuch we already have..-s that how it works.
ES
fishmike
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7/21/2009  11:41 AM
Posted by knicks1248:

So what your saying is making a trade for an all star would be a bad one no matter what..that's the confidence you have in walsh..IT's problem was he gave up to much..then u see paul get traded for kwame...and wonder why we can't get a deal done like that..

The funny thing about how gms think..Eisley, shannon,and spoon were all back ups who came from a winning enviroment..both eisley and shannon were 2 years remove from the finals, and spoon had been through the trenches with the heat, They were just grossly overpaid and became complete loser in a knick uni.Then you see walsh and mike do the same think with cap freindly contracts and get the same results and he's the best gm ever. Now expiring contracts can be a good asset especially in this economy, but you got utilize them...we can wait let the contracts fall of the books watch the supers stars and all stars re up with there own, then be force sign a few avg players in whuch we already have..-s that how it works.
When was Baron's last all star season? His salary commits you to building around him for the next several years.

Lets say it all together....

"Let build our team around Baron Davis."

Ok.. I dont like how that sounds, and prefer to NOT trade for him and keep my cap space and flexibility until something better comes along. If it doesnt thems the breaks. I can live with that.

"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
martin
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7/21/2009  11:45 AM
Posted by fishmike:
Posted by McK1:
Posted by fishmike:


awesome... lets skip out on any chance of FAs next year and build our team around a 30 year PG with weight issues and health problems signed long term for massive money that shot 37% from the field last year. After all... fans to pay to see cap space, right Isiah?

signing a max FA all hinges on renouncing Nate and Lee. NY doesn't then they aren't signing anyone anyway

[Edited by - McK1 on 07-21-2009 10:51 AM]
Thats not really true. Mostly it depends on what the Knicks do this offseason. Your assuming we sign a MLE player like Session, and CANT move JJ OR Eddie. Even if Walsh cant move Eddie or JJ (he will move one for expirings, bet your buck on that he will) we can still sign a max FA by letting Nate and Lee walk, AND use the MLE this year. We have crunched the #s a 100 times. The cash is there.

So whats your point? Lebron says "I want to play in NY." And we say sorry... we really really dont want to renounce Lee and Nate.

I'd like to add one more possibility to the whole cap space scenario regarding Lee and Nate:

Let's assume Walsh DOES re-sign both Lee and Nate to reasonable contracts this off-season. They can always be traded in the summer of 2010 to any of the many, multiple teams that will have cap space and would be able to absorb their contracts. Trade them for low first rounders or whatever. Voila.
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