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Phil Jackson says Mike D'Antonis style CAN win in the playoffs!
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GallOfFame
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12/17/2008  4:40 PM
I'm glad we got rid of Zach and Crawford make no mistake about it but in Zach's case since joining the Clippers they have improved defensively. I think it has to do with, he allows them to be a more conventional/balanced team. He gave them a true 4 and let Camby slide to the 5 spot. Of course Kaman hasn't played much since the acquisition either so take that for what it's worth.

They've gone from allowing teams to score 100ppg 46%fg to 94ppg 43%fg, scoring average has gone up almost 5ppg and their record has improved since the trade, meanwhile not the case for the Warriors since acquiring Crawford.

It depends on the mix for some players whereas in Jamal's case I don't think it does. He's fools gold, always has been.
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nixluva
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12/17/2008  4:54 PM
NO GM is perfect, but in our case Walsh has done the most important tasks already. Getting rid of salary. Now MDA has done his job as well. So I really am pleased so far.

Now as for MDA's system. The thing is that contrary to all the bashing, MDA does in fact have a defensive approach. it's matched perfectly to his offensive system. He has his players focused on creating turnovers and shutting down lanes. His doubles force bad passes, which is part of creating TO's so that we can get out on the break. We have seen this team improve since the trade on both ends of the court. Now imagine if we had an Amare type player to help close down the middle. MDA's perfect bigs are ones who can score inside and out, have quickness and agility so that they can help on D. We have yet to get that player, but i'm sure that they want one very much. They don't grow on trees tho.
Bippity10
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12/17/2008  5:00 PM
If the Knicks somehow managed to exchange Dwight Howard for DLee at the center spot and Raja Bell for Q at the 2 is our defense good enough to compete for a title? Would D'antoni's style hold us back? In my view you can play more than enough defense to win with this style if you have the right players.
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Knicksfan
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12/17/2008  5:02 PM
Posted by Bippity10:

If the Knicks somehow managed to exchange Dwight Howard for DLee at the center spot and Raja Bell for Q at the 2 is our defense good enough to compete for a title? Would D'antoni's style hold us back? In my view you can play more than enough defense to win with this style if you have the right players.

EXACTLY




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holfresh
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12/17/2008  5:03 PM
Posted by nixluva:

NO GM is perfect, but in our case Walsh has done the most important tasks already. Getting rid of salary. Now MDA has done his job as well. So I really am pleased so far.

Now as for MDA's system. The thing is that contrary to all the bashing, MDA does in fact have a defensive approach. it's matched perfectly to his offensive system. He has his players focused on creating turnovers and shutting down lanes. His doubles force bad passes, which is part of creating TO's so that we can get out on the break. We have seen this team improve since the trade on both ends of the court. Now imagine if we had an Amare type player to help close down the middle. MDA's perfect bigs are ones who can score inside and out, have quickness and agility so that they can help on D. We have yet to get that player, but i'm sure that they want one very much. They don't grow on trees tho.

Come on Nix, His defensive approach perfectly matches his offensive system perfectly???...His teams statistically are usually the worst or close to the worst in the league in terms of giving up the most points...I'm happy that the Knicks don't look like the sorry saps they have been in past years but I'm not going to start making shet up..



[Edited by - holfresh on 12-17-2008 5:04 PM]
Bippity10
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12/17/2008  5:03 PM
Posted by islesfan:
Posted by fishmike:
Posted by islesfan:
Posted by eViL:
Posted by Bippity10:
Posted by eViL:
Posted by Bippity10:

Can you win a title with Jerry Sloan and his style of play?

[Edited by - bippity10 on 17-12-2008 2:04 PM]

No, but you can with Doc Rivers.

Who amazingly was too dumb two years ago to win a title.

He finally got it when he realized that he needed to preach defense. Then he magically won a title. When will the rest of the league figure it out?

I believe Tom Thibodeau had a little something to do with them winning a championship. Amazing how Paul Pierce started playing the best defense in his life and the Celtics became a great defensive team on their way to the title.
equally amazing how Pierce's defense has improved since playing with KG.

Its amazing!

Absolutely that was a big part as well, having KG there. But did you happen to notice how much credit ALL of the players gave to Thibodeau and how much better these players were defensively, individually and collectively?

O/T Just 150 away Bip.

[Edited by - islesfan on 17-12-2008 2:50 PM]

Go F yourself
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LivingLegend
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12/17/2008  5:06 PM
Posted by Elite:

I was gunna post another thread about Chandlers D but ill just say it here... He has been PHENOMONAL!!!! He gave Kobe as good as an effort as you possibly can last night... I think Kobe had 2 uncontested shots all night... And I dont think Wil was guarding him when he got them.

Al Harrington also is a GREAT defender, I notice it mostly on the perimeter... I would like to see him guarding guys like Kobe... Anyone remember when he forced Nash into that big turnover the other night?

In Pringles we trust


Wilson has been playing very well - basically just keeping guys in front of him, recognizing screens and contesting shots.

Wilson's defensive play as a 20 year old neophyte is a clear indication of how truly BAD Jamal Crawford plays defense. I'm so happy he is gone -- I never realized the immediate dividends Jamal's subtraction would pay for our team defense.
LivingLegend
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12/17/2008  5:08 PM
Posted by holfresh:


One thing has been proven so far is this league, you are not winning without playing defense, even if Phil Jackson says it...


Knicks style is most reminiscent of the Golden State Warrior's championship team lead by Rick Barry and Jamal Wilks.
islesfan
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12/17/2008  5:21 PM
Posted by Bippity10:

If the Knicks somehow managed to exchange Dwight Howard for DLee at the center spot and Raja Bell for Q at the 2 is our defense good enough to compete for a title? Would D'antoni's style hold us back? In my view you can play more than enough defense to win with this style if you have the right players.

Sure, they'll win as many championships as the Orlando Magic have and are favored to win with Howard and Lewis.
If it didn’t work in Phoenix with Nash and Stoutamire... it’s just not a winning formula. It’s an entertaining formula, but not a winning one. - Derek Harper talking about D'Antoni's System
Bippity10
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12/17/2008  5:29 PM
Posted by islesfan:
Posted by Bippity10:

If the Knicks somehow managed to exchange Dwight Howard for DLee at the center spot and Raja Bell for Q at the 2 is our defense good enough to compete for a title? Would D'antoni's style hold us back? In my view you can play more than enough defense to win with this style if you have the right players.

Sure, they'll win as many championships as the Orlando Magic have and are favored to win with Howard and Lewis.


So in other words there is no scenario you can envision where the Knicks could have the players to play enough defense to win a title. D'Antoni and his system will hold us back? I guess that's just the point of all this nonsense arguing. Some feel that he could careless about D and that it's impossible to win with a running system. Some think you can.
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Bippity10
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12/17/2008  5:32 PM
Isles: How about we forget about Howard and Bell then and we substitute Gary Payton in his prime at the one and kevin Garnett at the four. Maybe we even throw Pippen in his prime at the 3. Can you win with D'Antoni's system? Would that team be a good defensive squad or would D'Antoni's system hold them back?
I just hope that people will like me
islesfan
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12/17/2008  5:37 PM
Posted by Bippity10:
Posted by islesfan:
Posted by Bippity10:

If the Knicks somehow managed to exchange Dwight Howard for DLee at the center spot and Raja Bell for Q at the 2 is our defense good enough to compete for a title? Would D'antoni's style hold us back? In my view you can play more than enough defense to win with this style if you have the right players.

Sure, they'll win as many championships as the Orlando Magic have and are favored to win with Howard and Lewis.


So in other words there is no scenario you can envision where the Knicks could have the players to play enough defense to win a title. D'Antoni and his system will hold us back? I guess that's just the point of all this nonsense arguing. Some feel that he could careless about D and that it's impossible to win with a running system. Some think you can.

I guess I'm of the mindset that you don't play "enough" defense to win a title but you play defense to win a title. You can't just add a player or two who plays defense, even a great one like Howard, and think that your team can now play enough defense. The entire team has to collectively play great team defense, plain and simple.
If it didn’t work in Phoenix with Nash and Stoutamire... it’s just not a winning formula. It’s an entertaining formula, but not a winning one. - Derek Harper talking about D'Antoni's System
islesfan
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12/17/2008  5:41 PM
Posted by Bippity10:

Isles: How about we forget about Howard and Bell then and we substitute Gary Payton in his prime at the one and kevin Garnett at the four. Maybe we even throw Pippen in his prime at the 3. Can you win with D'Antoni's system? Would that team be a good defensive squad or would D'Antoni's system hold them back?

If you have 3 great defenders who can all play well together it sure covers up mistakes from the other 2 positions. But how long can they last playing this up and down style. And when they're on the bench, the other players still need to play defense. Like I've been trying to say, it's a team effort and not just about 1 or 2 or even 3 players. That comes from the head coach.
If it didn’t work in Phoenix with Nash and Stoutamire... it’s just not a winning formula. It’s an entertaining formula, but not a winning one. - Derek Harper talking about D'Antoni's System
Bippity10
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12/17/2008  5:44 PM
Posted by islesfan:
Posted by Bippity10:
Posted by islesfan:
Posted by Bippity10:

If the Knicks somehow managed to exchange Dwight Howard for DLee at the center spot and Raja Bell for Q at the 2 is our defense good enough to compete for a title? Would D'antoni's style hold us back? In my view you can play more than enough defense to win with this style if you have the right players.

Sure, they'll win as many championships as the Orlando Magic have and are favored to win with Howard and Lewis.


So in other words there is no scenario you can envision where the Knicks could have the players to play enough defense to win a title. D'Antoni and his system will hold us back? I guess that's just the point of all this nonsense arguing. Some feel that he could careless about D and that it's impossible to win with a running system. Some think you can.

I guess I'm of the mindset that you don't play "enough" defense to win a title but you play defense to win a title. You can't just add a player or two who plays defense, even a great one like Howard, and think that your team can now play enough defense. The entire team has to collectively play great team defense, plain and simple.

Okay so you are saying that D'Antoni will hold that team back from being a good defensive squad. I beleive that you need to play defense as well to win titles. You and I are on the same page. But from what I've seen of this team, I also beleive that D'Antoni does prioritize defense and beleive that if you placed good defensive players on this team it would play "enough" defense to win a title, just like the showtime Lakers did(please don't glorify their defense). I think this talk of systems is far overblown. I believe you can win titles in any system if you have the right players. You and I can agree about the defense but agree to disagree on D'Antoni's ability to get it done. I will say the Knicks are going to be tough to watch the next 4 or 5 years that he is here, with all of us knowing that he can't ever win a title with his style.

They said many of the same things about Doc 2 years ago. He not only was a bad defensive coach, he was considered an idiot that did not belong in coaching. 2 years later he gets some great players and we are talking about his legacy. Get the right players and we will all be talking about how "magically" D'Antoni "figured it out" and started preaching defense.
I just hope that people will like me
Uptown
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12/17/2008  5:46 PM
Posted by islesfan:
Posted by Uptown:
Posted by islesfan:

I'm going to bet that the people who use numbers to show that those Lakers teams didn't play defense, never really saw them play.

And Phil Jackson never said anything of the sort about D'Antoni's style. But he did bring up a well founded concern about it not being able to win championships.

First, Instead of saying people, why not just say my name.

Second, you would lose your house, your pot to piss in and the clothes on your back if you bet I never saw them play. Not only dis I see them back in the 80's but I still watch the tapes to this day of the classic Lakers vs Celtics series' and then some.



[Edited by - Uptown on 12-17-2008 11:51 AM]

Then please explain why you think that those numbers prove that those Lakers teams weren't a very good defensive team.

What exactly did you see when you say those Lakers teams play?

As I mentioned in my previous post, I think teams like the Lakers and Celts were able to key some key stops when they needed it, but they were by no means a defensive juggernaut. My premise is, you can win with an uptempo style which has been proven by the likes of the Lakers and Celtics.

As far as what I saw when I saw the Lakers play; I saw an uptempo team that was able to play hlofcourt ball and get key baskets when they needed because they had the likes of hall-of-famers Kareem and Worthy to dump the ball into. Defensively, I saw that Laker team give up tons of fastbreak points, but as I said was able to get some stops when needed. I also saw that same Laker team play an illegal (at that time) zone for major portions of their games.

Bippity10
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12/17/2008  5:48 PM
Posted by islesfan:
Posted by Bippity10:

Isles: How about we forget about Howard and Bell then and we substitute Gary Payton in his prime at the one and kevin Garnett at the four. Maybe we even throw Pippen in his prime at the 3. Can you win with D'Antoni's system? Would that team be a good defensive squad or would D'Antoni's system hold them back?

If you have 3 great defenders who can all play well together it sure covers up mistakes from the other 2 positions. But how long can they last playing this up and down style. And when they're on the bench, the other players still need to play defense. Like I've been trying to say, it's a team effort and not just about 1 or 2 or even 3 players. That comes from the head coach.

So again, in summary you are saying that D'Antoni can't teach defense and the team will never win. I hear what you are saying, just want to see how many different ways you will say it. Walsh could put the right team together, but D'Antoni will be the one that holds us back. You could put 5 all defensive players on the court and they will somehow forget all the concepts of team defense. What exactly does a coach have to teach you in order to be a great team defensive player?

[Edited by - bippity10 on 17-12-2008 5:51 PM]
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islesfan
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12/17/2008  6:00 PM
Posted by Bippity10:
Posted by islesfan:
Posted by Bippity10:
Posted by islesfan:
Posted by Bippity10:

If the Knicks somehow managed to exchange Dwight Howard for DLee at the center spot and Raja Bell for Q at the 2 is our defense good enough to compete for a title? Would D'antoni's style hold us back? In my view you can play more than enough defense to win with this style if you have the right players.

Sure, they'll win as many championships as the Orlando Magic have and are favored to win with Howard and Lewis.


So in other words there is no scenario you can envision where the Knicks could have the players to play enough defense to win a title. D'Antoni and his system will hold us back? I guess that's just the point of all this nonsense arguing. Some feel that he could careless about D and that it's impossible to win with a running system. Some think you can.

I guess I'm of the mindset that you don't play "enough" defense to win a title but you play defense to win a title. You can't just add a player or two who plays defense, even a great one like Howard, and think that your team can now play enough defense. The entire team has to collectively play great team defense, plain and simple.

Okay so you are saying that D'Antoni will hold that team back from being a good defensive squad. I beleive that you need to play defense as well to win titles. You and I are on the same page. But from what I've seen of this team, I also beleive that D'Antoni does prioritize defense and beleive that if you placed good defensive players on this team it would play "enough" defense to win a title, just like the showtime Lakers did(please don't glorify their defense). I think this talk of systems is far overblown. I believe you can win titles in any system if you have the right players. You and I can agree about the defense but agree to disagree on D'Antoni's ability to get it done. I will say the Knicks are going to be tough to watch the next 4 or 5 years that he is here, with all of us knowing that he can't ever win a title with his style.

They said many of the same things about Doc 2 years ago. He not only was a bad defensive coach, he was considered an idiot that did not belong in coaching. 2 years later he gets some great players and we are talking about his legacy. Get the right players and we will all be talking about how "magically" D'Antoni "figured it out" and started preaching defense.

I'm not saying that D'Antoni can never win a championship. But if he's going to coach the way he did in Phoenix, I don't see it happening because of a lack of committment to defense. If D'Antoni starts to focus on defense, and I think there is evidence to him being shamed into it between his dismissal in Phoenix and his subsequent defensiveness about his committment to defense, then he can have more success here than he had in Phoenix.

Just like Doc did when he hired Tom Thibodeau and focused more on defense than he ever had in his entire coaching career.

BTW, thanks for engaging me in this conversation and helping me get to 10,000 even faster.
If it didn’t work in Phoenix with Nash and Stoutamire... it’s just not a winning formula. It’s an entertaining formula, but not a winning one. - Derek Harper talking about D'Antoni's System
Bippity10
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12/17/2008  6:12 PM
Posted by islesfan:
Posted by Bippity10:
Posted by islesfan:
Posted by Bippity10:
Posted by islesfan:
Posted by Bippity10:

If the Knicks somehow managed to exchange Dwight Howard for DLee at the center spot and Raja Bell for Q at the 2 is our defense good enough to compete for a title? Would D'antoni's style hold us back? In my view you can play more than enough defense to win with this style if you have the right players.

Sure, they'll win as many championships as the Orlando Magic have and are favored to win with Howard and Lewis.


So in other words there is no scenario you can envision where the Knicks could have the players to play enough defense to win a title. D'Antoni and his system will hold us back? I guess that's just the point of all this nonsense arguing. Some feel that he could careless about D and that it's impossible to win with a running system. Some think you can.

I guess I'm of the mindset that you don't play "enough" defense to win a title but you play defense to win a title. You can't just add a player or two who plays defense, even a great one like Howard, and think that your team can now play enough defense. The entire team has to collectively play great team defense, plain and simple.

Okay so you are saying that D'Antoni will hold that team back from being a good defensive squad. I beleive that you need to play defense as well to win titles. You and I are on the same page. But from what I've seen of this team, I also beleive that D'Antoni does prioritize defense and beleive that if you placed good defensive players on this team it would play "enough" defense to win a title, just like the showtime Lakers did(please don't glorify their defense). I think this talk of systems is far overblown. I believe you can win titles in any system if you have the right players. You and I can agree about the defense but agree to disagree on D'Antoni's ability to get it done. I will say the Knicks are going to be tough to watch the next 4 or 5 years that he is here, with all of us knowing that he can't ever win a title with his style.

They said many of the same things about Doc 2 years ago. He not only was a bad defensive coach, he was considered an idiot that did not belong in coaching. 2 years later he gets some great players and we are talking about his legacy. Get the right players and we will all be talking about how "magically" D'Antoni "figured it out" and started preaching defense.

I'm not saying that D'Antoni can never win a championship. But if he's going to coach the way he did in Phoenix, I don't see it happening because of a lack of committment to defense. If D'Antoni starts to focus on defense, and I think there is evidence to him being shamed into it between his dismissal in Phoenix and his subsequent defensiveness about his committment to defense, then he can have more success here than he had in Phoenix.

Just like Doc did when he hired Tom Thibodeau and focused more on defense than he ever had in his entire coaching career.

BTW, thanks for engaging me in this conversation and helping me get to 10,000 even faster.

Isles: I coached for about 10 years. In year 10 I was a better coach than year one. Like players coaches improve too. They learn from their mistakes and they improve. This notion of shame is a little off in my view. No shame in improving your skills. He is peeved about the perceived lack of defense played in Phoenix and I think he's made a concerted effort to focus on it even more. The team is clearly playing better D than they ever have in their careers. All evidence is pointing in the right direction. You can win with a running system and you can win with D'Antoni. I also think he could have won in Phoenix as well.

Just remember to thank me in your 10,000 post thank you speech.
I just hope that people will like me
loweyecue
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12/17/2008  7:04 PM
Posted by Elite:

I was gunna post another thread about Chandlers D but ill just say it here... He has been PHENOMONAL!!!! He gave Kobe as good as an effort as you possibly can last night... I think Kobe had 2 uncontested shots all night... And I dont think Wil was guarding him when he got them.

Al Harrington also is a GREAT defender, I notice it mostly on the perimeter... I would like to see him guarding guys like Kobe... Anyone remember when he forced Nash into that big turnover the other night?

In Pringles we trust


Raja Bell used to be the best Kobe-muffler in town and now Chandler plays good D on him. Does MDA make special assignments and special coaching effort for Kobe?
TKF on Melo ::....he is a punk, a jerk, a self absorbed out of shape, self aggrandizing, unprofessional, volume chucking coach killing playoff loser!!
loweyecue
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12/17/2008  7:18 PM
Posted by Bippity10:

Are people really watching the Knicks games right now and saying that the team is not working hard on defense? They are struggling defensively because they are undersized and overmatched at some positions but clearly they are busting their bizzalls on defense. There are fewer and fewer dunks and uncontested shots and they are actually hammering guys that have easy shots. They all appear to be working hard. The defensive flaws of this team appear to be more about the player shortcomings than they do the coaching staff IMO.

[Edited by - bippity10 on 17-12-2008 12:53 PM]

Ditto. People need to accept the fact that these guys are trying as hard as they can defensively. They are not all team defense type players but for some people anything short of that seems to complete lack of defense? What complete lack? We are playin the best defense we have played since the JVG days, and then some. We are playing much better defense than anything Larry Brown the hard nosed defense coach put on the floor. Give some credit to the coach and a ton of credit to these players. And stop whining about showtime lakers. For once just try to beliebve in what you have instead of what could have been. Where's the support for this hardworking blue collar team everybody was supposed to be "craving"? Be real, knicks fans.
TKF on Melo ::....he is a punk, a jerk, a self absorbed out of shape, self aggrandizing, unprofessional, volume chucking coach killing playoff loser!!
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Phil Jackson says Mike D'Antonis style CAN win in the playoffs!
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