I will say this Walsh was smart to use Isiah to scout him and make sure everyone knows it. If Red Rooster turns out fine or great than Walsh is a genius. If he bombs then it is just another mark on Isiah record. That's how you stay in the business that long.

Posted by islesfan:

Posted by KnicksSince88:

Posted by islesfan:

Posted by KnicksSince88:

Posted by islesfan:

Posted by KnicksSince88:

Posted by Pharzeone:

The point is that Anthony Randolph put up pretty good numbers in the SEC. Would that translate to Euro League. I mean it can't just go one way. If talent NCAA players who could not make in the NBA or get drafted in the NBA have pretty good success over there. Where does that rank a Freshman who had pretty good success. You telling me he couldn't put up similar numbers over there with the big boys.

I don't disagree with anything you are saying but who cares about upside when discussing the current ability of the given league? Whats more impressive, playing well against guys who are good now or guys who may be good in 4 years?
Anthony Randolph would probably be a very good player in Euro League. But about 80% of his LSU tiger teammates will be phys ed teachers in 4 years, and if his LSU team played a squad in euro league they would get trounced.

[Edited by - KnicksSince88 on 06-28-2008 03:56 AM]

So you agree that CBB has the talent that could easily play in the EL. Like I said in the other thread, the EL is just a far more condensed league, it doesn't have better young talent with far great upside that CBB has.

I don't disagree with anything you are saying but who cares about upside when discussing the current ability of the given league? Whats more impressive, playing well against guys who are good now or guys who may be good in 4 years?


[Edited by - KnicksSince88 on 06-28-2008 04:40 AM]

If that's the case, and I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you, and scouts think the competition is better in the EL, then why aren't top high school kids, who have no interest in staying past their first NCAA Tourney, going to play in the EL instead of the NCAA?

Probably because of exposure, and the fact that they could stay at home in their current surroundings and environment rather than moving thousands of miles away having to adjust to an entirely different atmosphere when in reality it wouldn't help their draft stock at all.

Plus from a marketability standpoint, playing stateside helps. A guy like Derrick rose goes nuts in the tourney and a fan base is salivating to add him. they'll sell tickets very easily because of the exposure he brought on himself last march. If he played in europe, he wouldn't be any less of a player, but there would be a lot less buzz surrounding him

[Edited by - KnicksSince88 on 06-28-2008 04:53 AM]

[Edited by - KnicksSince88 on 06-28-2008 04:54 AM]

Exposure? Who cares as long as they get NBA scouts to see them play and against supposedly much better competition. The point afterall is to improve your draft position. If NBA scouts really feel that the EL is so much better than CBB then top high school kids should be flocking to EL teams to help improve their stock.

Marketability? Why would a high school kid care about his future team selling tickets above improving his draft stock?

Marketablity is not the only reason, but your marketability enhances your draft stock in a situation where all other things are equal. Don't kid yourself, this is a business like anywhere else.

Posted by Pharzeone:

Posted by KnicksSince88:

Posted by Pharzeone:

That don't translate well. You guys indicated that DG could have gone as high as 5. Other guys played in the NCAA didn't help their marketability.

You don't think helping lead a team to an ncaa final helped the marketability of a guy like Derrick Rose? You don't think leading a team to an NCAA final helped a guy like Greg Oden? Guy hasn't played a minute in the NBA and every time i turn on ESPN i can't go 5 minutes without seeing an Oden commercial

You think Jaokim Noah goes top 10 if he played in Euro League instead of on a Florida Gator dynasty?

You are using top rate players in your example. Use the CDRs of the world. How did it help him?

CDR was simply a flawed prospect. If he played in euro League maybe he doesn't get drafted at all. Surely every wannabe draftnick in the world wouldn't be touting CDR as a steal at 40 if he played in Europe. They say that because they watched him contribute to a team who went to a final

At the end of the day, teams are going to select the guys they feel are the best players, period. But if its close, they'll take a guy who they think they could market better. It is a tie breaker of sorts. This is a business, like any other business. You think the Bobcats took May and Felton in their 2nd draft by total coincidence? or was it because they were looking for a more marketable selection for their fan base which had trouble moving tickets

[Edited by - KnicksSince88 on 06-28-2008 05:15 AM]

[Edited by - KnicksSince88 on 06-28-2008 05:15 AM]

That's fair. Like I say I want this to success because I am a Knick fan. He will have a chance to prove his worth in a couple of weeks.

Rose and Horford are terrific talents and that talent would have shined through regardless of where they played. What incentive would either have in moving thousands of miles away, across an ocean, to a whole new way of life to display it. Not to mention having to adapt to a whole new style of play from that with which they are used to, which is one of the reasons why team USA has struggled in international play of late, and one of the reasons why many euro's struggle early over here

If Rose played in Europe last year he still would have been an incredible prospect, but he likely wouldn't have had the same level of success he did at Memphis right off the bat

Posted by islesfan:

Posted by KnicksSince88:

Rose and Horford are terrific talents and that talent would have shined through regardless of where they played. What incentive would either have in moving thousands of miles away, across an ocean, to a whole new way of life to display it. Not to mention having to adapt to a whole new style of play from that with which they are used to, which is one of the reasons why team USA has struggled in international play of late, and one of the reasons why many euro's struggle early over here

If Rose played in Europe last year he still would have been an incredible prospect, but he likely wouldn't have had the same level of success he did at Memphis right off the bat

You talk like they were supposed to enter the Witness Protection Program. All we're talking about is moving to Europe and being paid very well for 9 months of basketball, all while getting to play against competition that is supposedly the closest thing to the NBA and improving their draft status. I know Rose ended up going #1 but that was certainly no lock heading into this year.

If you feel that way about Rose then obviously you think more highly of Gallinari since he had "success" in the EL last year. Besides, I thought it was more impressive what you do against top competition (EL) and not what you can do against subpar competition (CBB).

If the style of play in the EL doesn't translate to the NBA, why should anybody care about what kind of numbers a prospect puts up in the EL?

You have stated here several times that you agree Euro league is better than D1 yet keep trying to make a case to refute your own argument.

And it is a pretty big deal for an 18 year old kid to move to an entirely different country. If Euro's could make the same money overseas as they do here they wouldn't even come over here. Tiago Splitter is staying in Europe because they are paying him 8 times more than he would make over here. An 18 year old kid who has lived in the US his whole life is not moving to Italy or Spain or Greece to go play basketball for a year, not when he can stay in the USA and display his talents here, and not have to adjust to a totally new ball game, as well as way of life, at the same time

And the style of play difference between euro basketball and NBA basketball is definitely different but not something that any talented player couldn't adjust to over time. But if you are talking about a kid who has his eyes set on playing in the NBA after 1 season, its not in his best interest to play that season with a totally different atmosphere and style of play than he is used to. If anything it could temporarily hurt his stock, and damage his ability to be a high pick in the league 1 year later. And for the kids who don't have their eyes set on leaving after one year? Well odds are about 90% of these guys aren't NBA prospects anyway, and aren't even thinking about draft stock as much as they are getting a free ride to set themselves up for a job later in life

[Edited by - KnicksSince88 on 06-28-2008 06:07 AM]

Posted by Pharzeone:

You guys lost me when I see the Human Highlight getting MVP honors in 96. Wasn't he on like on one bad leg. Also, to take the point further, if you did well in the NCAA putting up great numbers you should do well in the Euro League based on the Langdon argument following that logic. So a guy like Anthony Randolph who put up pretty good numbers in the rugged SEC, should be great over there.

I think the point here is that the euroleague is better than the NCAA, we all know it is not the NBA level of play, but why trash gallinari for doing well in the euro league and then jock sniff these college kids who play in the NCAA which in the opinion of many is under euroleague ball.....

Posted by tkf:

Posted by Pharzeone:

You guys lost me when I see the Human Highlight getting MVP honors in 96. Wasn't he on like on one bad leg. Also, to take the point further, if you did well in the NCAA putting up great numbers you should do well in the Euro League based on the Langdon argument following that logic. So a guy like Anthony Randolph who put up pretty good numbers in the rugged SEC, should be great over there.

I think the point here is that the euroleague is better than the NCAA, we all know it is not the NBA level of play, but why trash gallinari for doing well in the euro league and then jock sniff these college kids who play in the NCAA which in the opinion of many is under euroleague ball.....

He'll be 20 years old next week and he's much more experienced than most NCCA seniors and has the benefitof being in a professional environment. So I do not view him as a project in terms of 3-4 years but I think he should be giving very tangible results by year 2 and a contributor in year 1. It took bynum 2 years for tangible results and at the age of 20 he was becoming a top 10 NBA player before he was hurt. I expect him to really dominate SL--I mean Lampe did and he has advanced training compared to anyone who will be there. Those are the signs Im looking for--dominate performance in SL--productive role player in year 1 and tangible results by year 2. If hes giving you 9 points and 4 rebounds in year 2 43% then you should worry.

Posted by BRIGGS:

Posted by tkf:

Posted by Pharzeone:

You guys lost me when I see the Human Highlight getting MVP honors in 96. Wasn't he on like on one bad leg. Also, to take the point further, if you did well in the NCAA putting up great numbers you should do well in the Euro League based on the Langdon argument following that logic. So a guy like Anthony Randolph who put up pretty good numbers in the rugged SEC, should be great over there.

I think the point here is that the euroleague is better than the NCAA, we all know it is not the NBA level of play, but why trash gallinari for doing well in the euro league and then jock sniff these college kids who play in the NCAA which in the opinion of many is under euroleague ball.....

He'll be 20 years old next week and he's much more experienced than most NCCA seniors and has the benefitof being in a professional environment. So I do not view him as a project in terms of 3-4 years but I think he should be giving very tangible results by year 2 and a contributor in year 1. It took bynum 2 years for tangible results and at the age of 20 he was becoming a top 10 NBA player before he was hurt. I expect him to really dominate SL--I mean Lampe did and he has advanced training compared to anyone who will be there. Those are the signs Im looking for--dominate performance in SL--productive role player in year 1 and tangible results by year 2. If hes giving you 9 points and 4 rebounds in year 2 43% then you should worry.

top 10? Laughable.