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It's Official....KVH is a New York Knick
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OldFan
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7/23/2003  11:58 PM
Okay I'll risk the hate mail and say I don't hate this trade.

Van Horn is not a star but he is a good shooter and a decent rebounder. His defense is bad. However, rebounding is a big part of defense and Spree was a week rebounder as a three and even neglecting the rebounding was not nearly the defender against 3s that he was against 2s. I honestly think with the other players on the team the Knicks defense is awful with either one.

Spree had heart and Van Horn CAN NOT replace that. He is however younger and the Knicks are a long way from being good. I could see either Keith or Spree being the 3rd or 4th best player on a championship team. But - Spree will only be that player for another year or two - while I can see Van Horn in that role for the next six years. Given our current circumstances neither would have much chance of being on a Championship contender for the Knicks but at this point in their careers I would rate Van Horns chances higher.
AUTOADVERT
HARDCOREKNICKSFAN
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7/24/2003  12:48 AM
OK OldFan, the few rebounds difference, the youth, and tyhe height have been talked to death and shot down with deadly precision around here, and the lack of passion on this team is now a well-known travesty. How do you feel about the lack of defense on this team now?

One more thing: what's stopping this deal from becoming a total bust for the Knicks? You believe the lack of defense has anything to do with that when it ends up happening next year?

Just curious....
Another season, and more adversity to persevere through. We will get the job done, even BETTER than last year. GO KNICKS!
technomaster
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7/24/2003  1:47 AM
What's preventing this deal from being a total bust? KVH's track record, that's what.

KVH has produced on two different playoff contenders-- meaning his regular games actually meant something. His numbers in the last two seasons suggest that he should be good for 15+ppg/7+rpg on a playoff-bound team. On a bad team (are the Knicks a BAD team?) he could be good for 20/8.

He has gained a ton of playoff game experience in the past 2 seasons and has had his fair share of both success and criticism. They say that adversity builds character.

The first time Sprewell faced adversity, he choked his coach. The last time Sprewell faced adversity, he sued the Post.

Maybe KVH needs some cornrows to look tough. Maybe a Beckham top-tail-thing. Maybe just a black eye. You know, to show he can mix it up inside. (that's what Maciej did just in time for the draft)

My last reason why KVH won't be a total bust is that we're a better team. Look no further than the addition of the rookies and the emergence of Frank Williams. The magic thing about young players is that they get better with (playing) time-- we'll be counting on them to contribute a little.

We're deeper than last year, with more weapons in the paint and more shooters in the perimeter (good for combating the zone).

We're taller, we've got more fouls to give, and we've got Super Lampe.

We have young, hungry players... not just journeymen trying to prove they still have it.

Yes, our defense may suffer (slightly)-- but in terms of team defense, a sea of 7' white guys with their arms up is still more intimidating than a hyper guy with cornrows.

Besides, do we truly believe that Sprewell was the key reason why our reason was merely mediocre, not poor? Also, I thought LJ was the heart and soul of this group of Knicks... last year we had no heart and soul.

AND... if Sprewell was our leader and the best he could do was lead us to a sub-.500 season, don't you think it's time to take a chance on a new leader?

If the Knicks can improve on last year's record and fight for a playoff spot w/ KVH in the lineup, I think this trade will be a success.
“That was two, two from the heart.” - John Starks
nyvector16
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7/24/2003  1:52 AM
WE are giving more talent than we are receiving in return... Not a good deal for us... I'm not opposed to trading Spree.. but Van Horn!! Give me a break.. I would much rather try to work something out for Szerbiak with Minnesota... At least that man can light up a game from time to time..
HARDCOREKNICKSFAN
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7/24/2003  2:24 AM
Posted by technomaster:

What's preventing this deal from being a total bust? KVH's track record, that's what.

KVH has produced on two different playoff contenders-- meaning his regular games actually meant something. His numbers in the last two seasons suggest that he should be good for 15+ppg/7+rpg on a playoff-bound team. On a bad team (are the Knicks a BAD team?) he could be good for 20/8.

Hey Tech, do you think he's gonna end up an all-star too? OMG this is funny.

He has gained a ton of playoff game experience in the past 2 seasons and has had his fair share of both success and criticism. They say that adversity builds character.
Character??? That's the same crap LayDown is on. Well he got his "yes" man. Watch Van Horn CRACK under the criticism when he underachieves.

The first time Sprewell faced adversity, he choked his coach.
WRONG. That was far from his first experience with an adverse situation.

The last time Sprewell faced adversity, he sued the Post.
NO. He sued the Post because the Post is a damn slanderous rag not worth the paper it's printed on.

Maybe KVH needs some cornrows to look tough. Maybe a Beckham top-tail-thing. Maybe just a black eye.
Nothing that softee can do can make him "look tough". He's WYSIWYG type-soft. As for the black eye, he might get a couple of those while making his futile attempt to be the "defensive stopper" some claim he can be in New York.

You know, to show he can mix it up inside. (that's what Maciej did just in time for the draft)
He's gonna be on the receiving end of ALOT of opposing teams' highlights. That will show him "mixing it up inside".

My last reason why KVH won't be a total bust is that we're a better team. Look no further than the addition of the rookies and the emergence of Frank Williams. The magic thing about young players is that they get better with (playing) time-- we'll be counting on them to contribute a little.
I believed we were a better team till this trade was done.

We're deeper than last year, with more weapons in the paint and more shooters in the perimeter (good for combating the zone).
Umm, exactly what "weapons in the paint" are you referring to? I Know you aren't talking about Van Horn.... Sweetney and maybe Lampe- rooks that need some burn. Kurt may/may not get traded.

We're taller, we've got more fouls to give, and we've got Super Lampe.
He's a rook that needs to get used to the NBA. Don't look for him to cause any immediate ruckus.

We have young, hungry players... not just journeymen trying to prove they still have it.
Actually we have alot of journeymen who don't try to prove much else besides cashing a check: Eisley, Spoon, Othella, Shandon, Travis Knight, etc. How soon we forget. Before this season's over, you can add Van Horn to that list too.


Yes, our defense may suffer (slightly)-- but in terms of team defense, a sea of 7' white guys with their arms up is still more intimidating than a hyper guy with cornrows.
What's the issue with cornrows? I think you need to take it down a notch, fella. As for the "sea of 7' white guys", Scott LayDown may see things the same way- You should get a job with the Knicks before he gets fired.

Besides, do we truly believe that Sprewell was the key reason why our reason was merely mediocre, not poor? Also, I thought LJ was the heart and soul of this group of Knicks... last year we had no heart and soul.
Spree was more of a heart here than ya boy Van Corn will ever dream of being.

AND... if Sprewell was our leader and the best he could do was lead us to a sub-.500 season, don't you think it's time to take a chance on a new leader?
Who's the new leader? You are more backwards than you sound is you're referring to Van Horn. Now the reigns are solely in Allan's hands.

If the Knicks can improve on last year's record and fight for a playoff spot w/ KVH in the lineup, I think this trade will be a success.
True, and if not, then LayDown can get the hell outta dodge and take KVH and all his fans with him.
Another season, and more adversity to persevere through. We will get the job done, even BETTER than last year. GO KNICKS!
HARDCOREKNICKSFAN
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7/24/2003  2:26 AM
Posted by nyvector16:

WE are giving more talent than we are receiving in return... Not a good deal for us... I'm not opposed to trading Spree.. but Van Horn!! Give me a break.

My sentiments exactly, NYvec
It's refreshing to see someone making some sense in this thread.
Another season, and more adversity to persevere through. We will get the job done, even BETTER than last year. GO KNICKS!
OldFan
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7/24/2003  7:11 AM
Ok one last post on this topic.

My point is that JVH will still be productive enough to be a starter on a good team 3,4,5,6 years down the line. In my opinion Spree has 3 years or less of playing at that level.

Don't get me wrong I LIKE SPREE. If we were contending this year and had any size in the middle I would rather have SPREE. But as we know, we're NOT CONTENDING NOW. JVH has had some very good years and given the right SUPERSTARS could be a key contributer to a future contender.

HARDCOREKNICKSFAN
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7/24/2003  9:11 AM
Read what the media is saying about us. What the Agents, GMs and players around the NBA are saying about us. What real fans who care about this team are saying.

It's a damn shame.
Another season, and more adversity to persevere through. We will get the job done, even BETTER than last year. GO KNICKS!
prodson
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7/24/2003  9:24 AM
great job scott layden.

all those years as a fan and now i'm the anti-knick. life is crazy aint it.
Knixkik
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7/24/2003  2:02 PM
Add McDyess to a frontcourt that includes Van Horn, Sweetney, and a player we trade Thomas for, like Keon Clark, Theo Ratliff, or Raef LaFrentz and we are much better off than adding McDyess to a line-up with the 6'5 Sprewell and 6'9 Thomas. Assuming Thomas is sent for one of the three, we now have size, youth, and shot-blocking without losing talent or athletism.
ICEMAN
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7/24/2003  3:39 PM
mcdeyes just had two major knee operrations what do you expect from him,
by scott getting lampe, horn and sweetney doesnt that tell us layden thinks mcdeyes is done.
you listen to Jimmy, But you cant hear Jimmy
prodson
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7/24/2003  4:10 PM
ice man i'm really

i mean really

tripping now

did you see where his signature states. the mcdyess dynasty begins now
LOLOL
man what is it? man i mean seriously what is it. are we aliens or something???


all those years as a fan and now i'm the anti-knick. life is crazy aint it.
KARNIVORE
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Nigeria
7/24/2003  4:46 PM
lol..... "THE ANIT KNICK" .......lol
ALL MEN ARE CREATED EQUAL, BUT THEY ARE NOT TREATED EQUAL !!!
Knixkik
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7/24/2003  5:20 PM
Posted by prodson:

ice man i'm really

i mean really

tripping now

did you see where his signature states. the mcdyess dynasty begins now
LOLOL
man what is it? man i mean seriously what is it. are we aliens or something???
As for my signature it's been there since he was traded here and yes i still do believe he can return and be a force.
knixphan
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7/24/2003  6:08 PM
Gonna play psychiatrist now...

I think the anger directed at the Van Horn trade is not really about Spree-vs. Keith...It's about admitting once and for all that we're rebuilding. And that we're rebuilding while still paying H20 a ton of money (bad combo).

Old Fan makes the point - we're not challenging right now. If we're not doing that, we're rebuilding.

Yo, fellas, another way to see it: If you really care about Spree, then why not rejoice that he has a chance to get a ring in the next 2-3 years? 'Cause we know that after that he's going to decline rapidly. I love the cat, and that's why I'm ok with the trade...mostly FOR SPREE'S SAKE. Not for Layden's.

I can honestly say I'm happy for Spree. Like an old girlfriend who just got married, but the two of you were cool, so you can actually go to the wedding and wish her well? Ever been there?

'I just want you to be happy, baby."

I can't get all the east-coast games you guys get, So I'll be seeing all the LA-Minny matchups, and you best believe I'll have my Spree Jersey on! (Both the NYK and the MTW)

So it's half-full.
"I will dress in bright and cheery colors, and so throw my enemies into confusion."
HARDCOREKNICKSFAN
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7/24/2003  8:11 PM
I can honestly say I'm happy for Spree. Like an old girlfriend who just got married, but the two of you were cool, so you can actually go to the wedding and wish her well? Ever been there?

'I just want you to be happy, baby."

An analogy like that can only come from a wise man, knixphan. Well put, brotha.

After putting it that way, I am happy for Spree too (although I wsa kinda glad for him b4).

Yo, I thought u were in LA...
Whassup with the Swiss profile?
Another season, and more adversity to persevere through. We will get the job done, even BETTER than last year. GO KNICKS!
technomaster
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7/25/2003  3:57 AM
I've got one last ORIGINAL comment about Van Horn. But first, let me mention that Friday's Post isn't quite as harsh about him-- Larry Brown even sounds like he's defending him.

Anyway, here's my analogy. Take a look at a player like Jamal Mashburn. He was dominant early on (scoring 24.1ppg in '94)... but injuries and bad team chemistry (with future MVP candidate Kidd leading the team!) slowed him down (10.7ppg in 96'). He eventually found his way to Miami, where he was supposed to resurrect his career. He looked lost on the floor. He was called heartless and soft after his troubles against the Knicks in the playoffs (the infamous pass to the open 'Spoon, who bricked the shot, Knicks win, Knicks win!).

You might as well have written the word goat on his forehead.

They gave up on him, shipping him with PJ Brown to the Hornets just as he was supposedly entering the prime of his career (approx age 27, KVH's age now). Looking at this trade, it looks like one of the all-time reversals of fortune as both Brown and Mashburn have thrived since the trade... and Jones has gone from stud to softie.

Given the right coach, the right system, Mash is better than ever--- an all-star, one of the most complete offensive players in the game, and a great playoff guy (when he's not injured!... and when Baron Davis isn't ball-hogging!). (He's still no defensive stopper, I hear the critics say...)

I'm going to keep my fingers crossed on Van Horn. Someone, please call up WFAN and see how the "experts" feel about the Mashburn story.

“That was two, two from the heart.” - John Starks
playa2
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7/25/2003  8:01 AM
ANOTHER GREAT POST TECHNO!

A year removed from the Nets, Van Horn indicated he still has bitter feelings toward his old team and admitted he was rooting for the Spurs in this year's Finals. HE WILL WANT TO BEAT THE CROSS TOWN RIVALS AS BAD AS KNICKS FANS DO.

[Edited by - PLAYA2 on 07/25/2003 08:02:59]
JAMES DOLAN on Isiah : He's a good friend of mine and of the organization and I will continue to solicit his views. He will always have strong ties to me and the team.
knixphan
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7/25/2003  2:14 PM
Hey, to get wisdom, you gotta get your heart broken a few times, y'know? Knick fans are starting to get a few heartbreaks, and that will just make us wiser in the future, I hope!

Yeah - I figured 'Switzerland' is a good metaphor, since I seem to end up playin' the 'centrist-peacemaker' around here...not too much Spree, not too much Houston...

But that's a comparison we don't have to worry about anymore. We can watch our baby Lampe grow up, like proud parents...While we see what uncle Keith from Utah is going to do when he starts working at the shop with Poppa Don.

There might be a silver lining for McDyess in all this mayhem...He may need longer to recup, and this allows the attention to go to Van Horn instead of his knee. I'm 50/50 on that prognosis, but in either case it's good to have a distraction from that knee.

But anyway, I AM going to get my Spree-Minny jersey on pre-order. Wolf-pack, y'all! And as soon as our act is together, the Knicks will be a-ight.

Patience is hard to learn, ya gotta have some years.

"I will dress in bright and cheery colors, and so throw my enemies into confusion."
It's Official....KVH is a New York Knick

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