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Trade with Philadelphia making the rounds?
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Bonn1997
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6/6/2008  7:46 AM
Posted by martin:
Posted by Bonn1997:
Posted by Bonn1997:
Posted by BRIGGS:
Posted by BRIGGS:
Posted by Bonn1997:
Posted by BRIGGS:
Posted by MS:

I just don't know the logic here. Zach goes 14mil 17mil 18mil that two very good players and one superstar. They wouldn't do the deal when they can get elton brand. Who is going to take zach, who?

We need to get rid of Crawford, Curry, and Zach with anything it doesn't matter

Here it is in simple math


players under contract for 2010

Curry 11.3
jamal C 10 unless he opts out which i doubt
jefferies 7mm
Chandler 2mm
zach 17
----5 players=47mm without resigning Lee Nate and 7 OTHER players

you take out Zach and add Evans

you are at 35mm with 5 players without resigning Lee nate and 7 other players

the ONLY way to stay below the cap is give lee and nate away for nothing or a draft pick

so how enticing will this team be to FA when the roster is blank--we have NO one--NO TOP TIER FA is going to accept a 100% rebuild--name 1 who has? Kobe wanted to quit the Lakers and they were pretty stacked we would have no one in this secnario and that iusnt happening. They have to be real about it
You have to follow this up by getting rid of Jamal and Eddy, which I do think you can do. Then you're at $26 mil.

OK what is your core team that you are selling to the FA?

Yes hard to answer when you stop and think. If we use all of our assets to purge the roster--we have no roster and NO FA is coming to a no talent roster.
I didn't reply within 10 minutes. So you concluded that the question was too hard to answer. Okay, let me try one. How's your plan of building around Eddy as a 24/8 player working?
Hard to answer, isn't it?

SNITTER!

I'm surprised it took you that long to jump in to defend Briggs. You always feel the need to defend him and usually do so much quicker. You're slowing down with age!
AUTOADVERT
fishmike
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6/6/2008  7:53 AM
Briggs is right.. we arent in position to land a bigtime FA. It just wasting more talent on a scenario that not only isnt likely to happen, but has not happened in the NBA. These guys always sign extensions. Why are the Knicks going to be able to accomplish something no other team has.

We are better off improving the roster and looking for trade opportunities
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
Bonn1997
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6/6/2008  7:59 AM
Posted by fishmike:

Briggs is right.. we arent in position to land a bigtime FA. It just wasting more talent on a scenario that not only isnt likely to happen, but has not happened in the NBA. These guys always sign extensions. Why are the Knicks going to be able to accomplish something no other team has.

We are better off improving the roster and looking for trade opportunities

You're talking about teams like Atlanta and Charlotte not being able to get all-star FAs. This is NYC. A superstar could earn an huge money in endorsements plus his max contract. If you go down the list of 20 or so FAs I listed in 2010/11 and 2011/12, they're all better than anything we've gotten in the past decade. I'm not waiting for Lebron or Wade but I am betting we'd get at least one of those 20 or so players and that they're all better than your trades for guys like Diaw and Redd.
fishmike
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6/6/2008  8:10 AM
I am not giving up lottery picks for Diaw and Redd, or Baron Davis, or Jermaine Oneil.

Its really going out on a limb to suggest something that will never happen.

Actually Atl did sign Joe Johnson.. which is about as good a player as you can get in FA. Sorry... if thats the kind of choice we have I would rather keep my lottery picks and trade for Michael Redd and Jermaine Oneil in salary dumps.
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
Bonn1997
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6/6/2008  8:18 AM
Actually Atl did sign Joe Johnson.. which is about as good a player as you can get in FA.
No, it's about as good a player as Atlanta could get as an FA
fishmike
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6/6/2008  8:43 AM
ok Bonn.. name the best FA's that have left their team in the last 8-10 years.

Nash, Joe Johnson, Arenas and Lamar Odom are the best in the last 5 years and their current teams either couldnt or wouldnt pay them. Before then Trace McGrady was the biggest, and Tor was also not willing to pay both TMac and Vince max money.

On the flip side 3 times that many good players have been TRADED for during the same time. Ray Allen, Garnett, Vince Carter, Andre Miller, TJ Ford, Ben Wallace, Sheed, Rip Hamilton, Jason Richardson, Marion, Shaq Jamison, Caron Butler, Shane Battier, Baron Davis, KMart, Iverson, Okur, Cassell, Gasol, Odom, Bibby... on and on

See a pattern developing here? LOTS of players through trade. NOT LOTS of players through FA.

Also I was wrong about Joe Johnson.. that was a trade also
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
Anji
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6/6/2008  9:29 AM
^^^^ THe man makes a great point. We truly need this player a 6 and trading that chance just to move Zach is really short sighted. We have 2 years to move Zach, why try to sell him now at such a cost????
"Really, all Americans want is a cold beer, warm p***y, and some place to s**t with a door on it." - Mr. Ford
Vmart
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6/6/2008  9:42 AM
Posted by fishmike:

ok Bonn.. name the best FA's that have left their team in the last 8-10 years.

Nash, Joe Johnson, Arenas and Lamar Odom are the best in the last 5 years and their current teams either couldnt or wouldnt pay them. Before then Trace McGrady was the biggest, and Tor was also not willing to pay both TMac and Vince max money.

On the flip side 3 times that many good players have been TRADED for during the same time. Ray Allen, Garnett, Vince Carter, Andre Miller, TJ Ford, Ben Wallace, Sheed, Rip Hamilton, Jason Richardson, Marion, Shaq Jamison, Caron Butler, Shane Battier, Baron Davis, KMart, Iverson, Okur, Cassell, Gasol, Odom, Bibby... on and on

See a pattern developing here? LOTS of players through trade. NOT LOTS of players through FA.

Also I was wrong about Joe Johnson.. that was a trade also

Excellent post, the Knicks have to have a plan that utilizes free agency yet they must be open to trades that will help the team. You can not close that door completely. You never know when it might be the Knicks turn to benefit from a donation ala Boston and Lakers.

fishmike
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6/6/2008  10:04 AM
those cap dumping trades happen every year, where as cap space is truley fools gold. Look how many times Chi got under the cap, big market, talented young players and the best they got was the Eddie guy with the bad foot that Isiah later tried to trade for.

If we build this roster up with good talented player, especially with the draft we will be in a position to make those kinds of trades.

Dumping our lottery pick to get rid of Zach only moves us backward
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
BRIGGS
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6/6/2008  10:08 AM
Trading Zach and pick 6 would be the stupidest sckr play that you could possibly make. IF it lead us to FA THIS yera and we already had a target like Pheonix had with Nash where the Dallas owner was undervaluing him--that would be one thing. This is a shot in the dark for no specific player in 2 years. If Knick management think Lebron James is coming to NY and leave his hometown his 18mm $ mansion his kids wife to play on what will be a very dicey roster unless there is a miracle--you are out of your gord. What incentive does Lebron have by playing here? Lebron James makes 50mm per year now so money is not an issue ONLY winning. On top of it like fishmike said unless ateam is rebuilding when do you ever see a top tier FA leave? Very very rare.
The only player worth all of this is Lebron and Lebron is a pipe dream. And even if Lebron left---look who will have cap room two years from now--Miami and they will have the better roster and of course the much preferbale location and it's a piupe dream for them as well. The Cavs will NEVER let Lebron go-- now is there any other player that is good enough that I would be willing to spend 100mm on and give up lottery picks for--NO not for wade or bosh who also are going nowhere
RIP Crushalot😞
fishmike
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6/6/2008  10:12 AM
Adur Rahim?
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
BRIGGS
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6/6/2008  10:16 AM
Posted by majorleads:

Briggs is clueless.

He talks about keeping the sixth pick and then mentions these players... Mayo, Westbrook, Bayless, Gordon, Randolph, Alexander, and Lopez. Huh? There isn't a sure thing in that bunch and most of them are "combo guards" which we DO NOT NEED. Randolph, Alexander, Lopez? Yeah ok, wake me up in 5 years when they are just starting to put up decent numbers.

You need really good to great players if you're going to win in this league and the only way we have an excellent shot at getting one is to be under the cap in 2010 and then in 2011. There are a TON of really good/great players who will be free agents then. And we need to stink it up this season and try to land a top 2 pick next summer.

Not only do we dump Zach in this trade, next up is Curry then Crawful. You don't just move Zach, you have to unload the entire stinking bunch and get way under the cap. Plus Evans is a nice piece to either keep or trade away for a draft pick to get further under the cap.

Now Briggs if you were to tell me there is a DIFFERENCE MAKER at the 6th pick, then yeah I would think twice about this deal, but come on, there is no sure thing and we certainly do not need one of those "combo guards" who can't run the most important position on the court, which is point guard.

And if we wanted to, we could always trade back up a few spots. It seems like there is a lot of talk this season of teams wanted to unload their top picks to move down because they believe the talent difference in the first half of the draft isn't all that much different from the second half.



OK so you call me clueless. In this post you want to rid yourself of Crawford Curry Zach Randolph I guess by using our lottery picks for the next two yeras to do so. So you get to 2010 and find Lebron James Bosh and Wade all re-up with their own teams[which is what almost always happens] you have given up pick 6 and lets say pick 8 next year to purge players. What does your roster look like?
Again going through the history of the last 6 years where we literally burned up 6 lottery picks--look at the team we couldve had--and you want this to continue for some kind of shot in the dark shot at FA? FA should be used to help enhance a team that is already in position to get it going. In your scenario--you want the team purged--I dont get it? I would like the Knicks to be able to get to FA as well--but I would NEVER EVER over pay to do so.
RIP Crushalot😞
tkf
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6/6/2008  10:18 AM
Posted by fishmike:

those cap dumping trades happen every year, where as cap space is truley fools gold. Look how many times Chi got under the cap, big market, talented young players and the best they got was the Eddie guy with the bad foot that Isiah later tried to trade for.

If we build this roster up with good talented player, especially with the draft we will be in a position to make those kinds of trades.

Dumping our lottery pick to get rid of Zach only moves us backward


Stop it fish!!!! you are making too much sense.........
Anyone who sits around and waits for the lottery to better themselves, either in real life or in sports, Is a Loser............... TKF
BRIGGS
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6/6/2008  10:20 AM
Posted by rain:

Do people here actually think Randolph has ANY value? His contract is really bad, and playing in NY has magnified (by the huge media market) the huge holes in his game. I'd be surprised if Philly was willing to take him, to be honest.

Right now, he has zero value. Under D'Antoni he might resurrect his image.. but I don't count on it. Getting him out, may help pave the way for Lebron.
The people who lose in this world sell at a low--it's called a panic trade. Zach randolpis 26 years old. If we cant get a reasonable deal for him--then we let Mike D do what he does best--make players look better. I think reasonable people on this board can see a scenario where Zach plays under control with less minute sin this system where most of his shots are point blank. I can easily see Zach shooting 50% plus in this system. Lets give him a year if we cant get a fair trade. That would leave him with only 2 years on his contract anyway.
RIP Crushalot😞
nyk4ever
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6/6/2008  10:47 AM
Posted by fishmike:

those cap dumping trades happen every year, where as cap space is truley fools gold. Look how many times Chi got under the cap, big market, talented young players and the best they got was the Eddie guy with the bad foot that Isiah later tried to trade for.

If we build this roster up with good talented player, especially with the draft we will be in a position to make those kinds of trades.

Dumping our lottery pick to get rid of Zach only moves us backward

Believe me, I agree with you on this. Just playing devils advocate though... we have a coach here now that alot of players in the NBA would want to play for, so that could help when it comes to Free Agency?
"OMG - did we just go on a two-trade-wining-streak?" -SupremeCommander
Bonn1997
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6/6/2008  10:55 AM
Posted by fishmike:

ok Bonn.. name the best FA's that have left their team in the last 8-10 years.

Nash, Joe Johnson, Arenas and Lamar Odom are the best in the last 5 years and their current teams either couldnt or wouldnt pay them. Before then Trace McGrady was the biggest, and Tor was also not willing to pay both TMac and Vince max money.

On the flip side 3 times that many good players have been TRADED for during the same time. Ray Allen, Garnett, Vince Carter, Andre Miller, TJ Ford, Ben Wallace, Sheed, Rip Hamilton, Jason Richardson, Marion, Shaq Jamison, Caron Butler, Shane Battier, Baron Davis, KMart, Iverson, Okur, Cassell, Gasol, Odom, Bibby... on and on

See a pattern developing here? LOTS of players through trade. NOT LOTS of players through FA.

Also I was wrong about Joe Johnson.. that was a trade also

See reply two posts up. You're relying on FA signings of cities like Atlanta and Charlotte and projecting their experiences to ours in NYC. That makes no sense.
TrueBlue
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6/6/2008  11:53 AM
Posted by fishmike:

ok Bonn.. name the best FA's that have left their team in the last 8-10 years.

Nash, Joe Johnson, Arenas and Lamar Odom are the best in the last 5 years and their current teams either couldnt or wouldnt pay them. Before then Trace McGrady was the biggest, and Tor was also not willing to pay both TMac and Vince max money.

On the flip side 3 times that many good players have been TRADED for during the same time. Ray Allen, Garnett, Vince Carter, Andre Miller, TJ Ford, Ben Wallace, Sheed, Rip Hamilton, Jason Richardson, Marion, Shaq Jamison, Caron Butler, Shane Battier, Baron Davis, KMart, Iverson, Okur, Cassell, Gasol, Odom, Bibby... on and on

See a pattern developing here? LOTS of players through trade. NOT LOTS of players through FA.

Also I was wrong about Joe Johnson.. that was a trade also


Very short list Fish and somewhat inaccurate you have to include players who were S&T for because in most cases with exception to our club teams with cap room or flexibility are able to do this. Without is it slim to none Joe Johnson is on your first list therefore... add

Andre Miller(Clips Nugz),
Quinton Richardson(Clips-Suns),
Arenas(Warriors-Wiz),
T-Mac(Raps-Orl),
Pippen(Chicago-Rockets),
Carlos Boozer(Cavs-Jazz),
Mehmet Okur(Jazz)(you have him on your second list of players I don't know why),
Larry Hughes(Wash-Clev),
Rashard Lewis(Seattle-Orl),
Jason Kapono(Heat-Raps),
Kenyon Martin(Nets-Nugz),
Cassell(Wolves-Clips)
Curry(Bulls-Knicks),
Crawford(Bulls-Knicks),
Peja(Pacers-Hornets),
Tyson Chandler(Hornets),
Lamar Odom(Clippers-Heat),
Antonio Daniels(Sonics-Wiz),
Gary Payton(Boston-Heat),
Stromile Swift(Grizz-Rockets),
Cuttino Mobley(Rockets-Clips),
Brent Barry(Seattle-Spurs),
Derek Fisher(Lakers-Warriors),
Hedo Turkeyglue(Spurs-Orlando),
Ben Wallace(Pistons-Bulls)(you have him on your second list of players I don't know why),
Bobby Simmons(Clippers-Bucks),
Raja Bell(Mavs-Utah),
Al Harrington(Pacers-Hawks),
Rafer Alston(Miami-Toronto),
Walker(Boston-Miami),
SAR(Hawks-Kings)

Now you may consider most of the players on this list not Big-Time but the point of having cap space and flexibility is not exclusively to land Lebron James talent. The purpose is to have as great of option as you can to sign player(s) to improve the ball club and going by the list above you could improve your club if a team had adequate space to sign any combination of these players and make the correct signings.

It's also a pretty hefty list considering the climate of the NBA is to give a FA's current team the best chance at re-signing them vs other clubs. You'd think you'd see less movement.



[Edited by - TrueBlue on 06-06-2008 11:01 AM]
LMFAO @ the Bio [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephon_Marbury[/url]
newyorknewyork
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6/6/2008  12:04 PM
To me Randolph for Evens should be more than enough. In most cases philly would have to give us a draft pick or 2 in a deal like this.

I don't think there has ever been a trade like this where a team gave up there lottery pick and by far the most talented player in the trade for a role player that wasn't even an expiring contract as well as move down 10 spots. We would be getting rapped in this deal.

Subtract Evens contract and add Randolphs and Philly ends up paying on average like 10.6mil a season for Randolph as well as moving up for the #6 lottery pick.

Randolph for Evens

Randolph & #6 for Evens, #16, and 2 future draft picks first one top 8-10 protected, 2nd one lottery protected up to 2012.
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Bonn1997
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6/6/2008  12:17 PM
Posted by newyorknewyork:

To me Randolph for Evens should be more than enough. In most cases philly would have to give us a draft pick or 2 in a deal like this.

I don't think there has ever been a trade like this where a team gave up there lottery pick and by far the most talented player in the trade for a role player that wasn't even an expiring contract as well as move down 10 spots. We would be getting rapped in this deal.

Subtract Evens contract and add Randolphs and Philly ends up paying on average like 10.6mil a season for Randolph as well as moving up for the #6 lottery pick.

Randolph for Evens

Randolph & #6 for Evens, #16, and 2 future draft picks first one top 8-10 protected, 2nd one lottery protected up to 2012.
Most cases? What other cases were there where a team was trying to dumb a cancer with $50 mil left on his contract?
fishmike
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6/6/2008  12:22 PM
Very short list Fish and somewhat inaccurate you have to include players who were S&T for because in most cases with exception to our club teams with cap room or flexibility are able to do this.
wrong wrong wrong... you dont need cap space to do a sign and trade. Thats the whole point. The other team signs and TRADES to you.

We signed Crawford with cap space? Thats weird.. I dont remember having cap space to sign Crawford, or Eddie Curry for that matter.

All you "we are are getting Lebron" nut huggers are crying about cap space. Like 1/5 of the guys you listed were aquired using cap space. You put in MLE players in there, league minimum players. That is not what this discussion is about.

How do you aquire all star players?

You trade for them or you draft them. The historical evidence can not be disputed.
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
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