Posted by COSSUCKS:

Actually those 4 trades I do agree with. I should have read your post closer. I do not like the Marbury/Penny trade nor the Steve Francis/Ariza trade.

Posted by COSSUCKS:

Actually those 4 trades I do agree with. I should have read your post closer. I do not like the Marbury/Penny trade nor the Steve Francis/Ariza trade.

Posted by islesfan:

Posted by Panos:

Posted by COSSUCKS:

Actually those 4 trades I do agree with. I should have read your post closer. I do not like the Marbury/Penny trade nor the Steve Francis/Ariza trade.

Too bad those are not actually the trades!
They are synthesized trades with the ugly details dropped out.

That's so unfair of you to ask them to tell it like it is.

Posted by Solace:

Posted by islesfan:

Posted by Panos:

Posted by COSSUCKS:

Actually those 4 trades I do agree with. I should have read your post closer. I do not like the Marbury/Penny trade nor the Steve Francis/Ariza trade.

Too bad those are not actually the trades!
They are synthesized trades with the ugly details dropped out.

That's so unfair of you to ask them to tell it like it is.

You mean on a website that professes to do just that but fails miserably?

Posted by COSSUCKS:

1) Clarence Weatherspoon for Moochie Norris
Grade: Meaningless.
Neither player would help the Knicks.

2) Antonio McDyess (expiring), Charlie Ward (expiring), Maciej Lampe, Howard Eisley, Milos Vujanic and two first rounders to the Suns for Marbury, Penny and Cesary Trybanski.
Grade: D
Giving up 1st round pick #14 (Kirk Snyder) for Marbury is nothing to worry about. Lampe, Ward, Eisely, Penny, Vujanic all are washouts and not a factor at all. The reason for the bad grade is Marburys poor attitude played a major factor in the Knicks remaining bad. Pennys salary did not matter since it expired before our cap problems from Layden would expire. Marburys salary extended our cap problem an extra 2 years. Still owe another protected draft pick that becomes unprotected in 2010

3) Keith Van Horn, Michael Doleac, second rounder (or was it two?) for Nazr Mohammed, Tim Thomas
Grade: C
KVH for TT was a decline by itself. Nazr for Doleac was an upgrade.

4) Dikembe Mutombo, Othella Harrington, Frank Williams, Cesary Trybanski for Jerome Williams, Jamal Crawford
Grade: B plus
With H20 being injured we needed a SG. To be able to get a young former lotter pick that averages 17ppg and 4apg without giving up any draft picks or players that are stars was a very good move. We never had a chance to get under the cap before 2007 so the salaries we took on did not matter at all. Crawford making 7-8 mill is a very fair contract

5) Nazr Mohammed for Malik Rose and two late first rounders (#30 and then #29 the next year).
Grade: A minus
This was an absolute steal. We were going to be over the cap regardless till 2009 because of Marburys contract. To get the draft pick that enabled us to get David Lee was a huge steal. Malik gives leadership and Mardy is possibly a player.

6) Vin Baker, Moochie Norris, Second Rounder for Mo Taylor
Grade: Meaningless.
None of these players helped the team greatly.

7) Kurt Thomas for Quentin Richardson, #21 pick (Nate Robinson)
Grade: B
Qrich contract/back may or may not be an issue. Nate is an asset. Kurt Thomass was since traded again and it cost the Suns another #1 draft pick or 2 to dump his contract.

8) 2006 first rounder (#2 overall), 2007 first rounder (#9 overall), Two second rounders, Mike Sweetney, Tim Thomas for Eddy Curry, Antonio Davis, Bulls 2007 first rounder
#23 overall)
Grade: B
Traded a first round pick and a swap of picks. Paxson has said no lottery protection would be execpted. Draft is far from a sure thing. Curry is now 24. He was 22 at the time. Former lottery pick himself led the nba in points in the paint. Sweetney, Thomas were both cut by the Bulls. Antonio Davis was then included in a trade for the draft pick that brought Renaldo Balkman. You dont get a 22 year old 7 foot center who led a playoff team in scoring for nothing. A 2006 first round pick and 2007 swap of picks is at worst an even trade but is right now a steal for NY especially if Curry keeps evolving. Currys 9 mill a year contract is actually below market for a starting center of his caliber.

9) Trevor Ariza, Penny Hardaway for Steve Francis
Grade: F
I dont think Ariza is any great player but it was a bad trade.

10) Antonio Davis for Jalen Rose, #20 pick
Grade: B
Pick became Ronaldo Balkman. Took on Jalen Rose contract for a year. Didnt hurt our salary cap in any way since we would be over the cap till 2009. Luxury taxs are meaningless to me.

11) Channing Frye, Steve Francis for Zach Randolph, Fred Jones, Dan Dickau
Grade: B
Personal wise its a huge steal for NY. Question is how Zach will behave and fit in. Francis, Jones and Dickau are throw ins and salary cap players. It was Frye for Randolph from our perspective player wise. Francis and Dickau have already been cut and Jones may be cut.


[Edited by - COSSUCKS on 10-04-2007 2:00 PM]

Posted by TrueBlue:

Posted by tkf:

Posted by TrueBlue:

Posted by tkf:

I find it funny that half of the people on this site, told me not to take it personal when it came to the Annucha brown verdict. They said the 11.6 mil was not my money...

Yet, guys scream that we had to pay to get guys who actually play for the team, and won't the knicks for sexual harrasment... Geez.. talk about hypocrites...

I find it funny that a ton of Knick fans wanted Anooka not to get a dime and deserved a firing for fibbing on her taxes, not hanging the correct murals at MSG, and requesting too many times for players to participate in fan/team functions but want I SAY UGH and Marbury to continue leading this team producing losing season after losing season while catching cases.


talk about hypocrites


Just so I understand you correctly please specify more clearly what you mean by your second statement that's bolded

it is easy to understand. guys like yourself complain about the salary cap and the money donlan spends for players who actually are giving the team a service Ie: playing, and most likely will never sue for sexual harrasment.Correction contributing to losing, allowing assets given away to other teams to increase in value, decreasing their own value by not giving their best effort when playing, milking injuries on the bench.

yet when annucha sues and gets a gift of 11.6 million dollars, you say don't worry, it is not your money...Correction I never really said this I said don't get so emotionally wrapped up because her dollar reward is no more relevant than other mismanagement rewards given to ex coahces and players

so I guess it is fine to complain about spending money when it comes to players, but not frivilous lawsuits?

And really your post made no sense, annucha just didn't fib on her taxes, she knowingly and repeatedly commited tax fraud and worst of all involved the company she worked for, that is a crime... And her putting up wrong posters with players that are no longer on the team is the equivalent of Isiah trying to trade players that are not on the knicks. that is just incompetent.... Your post made no sense... sorry bro...

When players of the company don't give their best effort, cause revolts in season, play for personal goals(selfishly) only instead of team goals etc etc is equivalent to an employee of the same company lying, stealing, cheating, etc etc on their taxes. Here's the kicker what Anooka did doesn't impact the ability of the team(product on the floor) to improve but players who contribute to a losing culture instead of a winning one do or GM's/President who make ridiculous trades and coddle such losers do.

I'm primarily concerned with things that hinder the W's and the team becoming Elite. Not behind the scene stuff dealing with matters of who burnt the Thomas Popcorn to the point it can't be served at The Garden.

The ridiculous trades happen with every team, coddling losers happen on more teams than just the knicks. we are talking about the cap, the luxury tax, spending money that is not ours, you call these guys losers but if the knicks win 55 games then what? and say what you want but the possiblity of these losers, winning is always there. What do we gain paying out 11.6 to annucha the snake? There is no upside or possiblity of anything good comming out of giving her 11.6 million. but then again none of it is our money, right?

Posted by Panos:

Posted by COSSUCKS:

Posted by Panos:

While I disagree with some of your analysis, Cossucks, I appreciate that you tried to give a somewhat fair grading. Unlike what Earl would do.
However, I mostly disagree with your perspective on cap management. Ex, #6, #5 I strongly disagree with your grades. #3 I disagree with mostly because I despised TT. I do not think Nazr for Doleac was that bad, except that Doleac was playing well with Marbufy.

Thank you I appreciate that. I did not like TT either but that trade became a nothing trade. KVH isnt playing in the NBA. TT is gone. Nazr was much more productive despite Doleac playing well. Doleac was still a reserve while Nazr was a starter for us.

As far as the Mo Taylor trade goes how did it hurt us other than giving up a 2nd round pick?

The salary cap situation Isiah inherited from Layden would not have a chance to get below the NBA cap level till 2007 because of various contracts (Shandon, H20, etc).
Isiah extended that to 2009 when he made the Marbury trade.
If you look at our roster the only really bad cap killing contract that remains we have is Marbury. Malik, and James are overpaid but their 5-8 mill deals are not cap killers.

Its always about opportunity cost. Why trade for MoT when you could have used those expiring contracts in a better way? And for God's sake if you are going to do this trade, GET a second round pick. Don't GIVE one. You can't say they are worthless if I.T. just bought two this year for what make turn out to be decent players!

Posted by tkf:

Actually the "opportunity cost" is your next best option. Sometimes people assume that if we spent X dollars on one player then we lose out on guys like Kobe and lebron. well that is not our opportunity cost, because those guys were not an option in that particular situation. Who knows, except Isiah what the opportunity cost was when we traded Mo T? How do we know there was a Better option available? I guess panos and others feel that Isiah took the worst option that was available, I would hate to think that, but people make things seems as if there were always better options AVAILABLE! we are talking about a marginal player in MO T? it is safe to assume that the options available are not great...

Posted by tkf:

I keep hearing how we could have brought draft picks for much cheaper, but that is not always the case, why would teams want to sell late first round picks? unless they are truly strapped for cash. the reason why we were able to get those picks is because we took on more salary while giving up shorter contracts. If you don't think that lee and collins are worth the cost then fine, but tell me had we gone out to find a player who is 22 and averages a double double, how much do you think that kind of player, that young with upside would cost us? as a free agent?

Posted by Solace:

Posted by tkf:

I keep hearing how we could have brought draft picks for much cheaper, but that is not always the case, why would teams want to sell late first round picks? unless they are truly strapped for cash. the reason why we were able to get those picks is because we took on more salary while giving up shorter contracts. If you don't think that lee and collins are worth the cost then fine, but tell me had we gone out to find a player who is 22 and averages a double double, how much do you think that kind of player, that young with upside would cost us? as a free agent?

Phoenix sold multiple late first rounders for $3 million. We paid a hell of a lot more for the ones we bought. When we sold draft picks (like in the Marbury trade), we also took on an extra $100 million of salary before luxury taxes (so, actually $200 million).