Posted by BlueSeats:
I have to wonder how many African American women feel sold out for the race card by Isiah and some of the AA males who support the notion it's "less bad" for black males to denigrate black women.
This is after all a sexual harassment case, not a race crime case, so why did Isiah bring race into the equation? I have to figure it's a subterfuge to confuse the issue. How much of the population's opinion can he dispose of through such manuevering?
1. All whites. The race card says "this is a black thing, you'll never understand, so your opinion is invalid."
2. Some percentage of black males who willingly take the bait and in so doing suggest that the denigration of black females by black men is some sort of justifiable, historical inevitability. I think we see this in this thread.
3. Some percentage of black women who are so used to being talked down to they fear increased reprocussions for standing up for themselves.
All of these are designed to shut down or disqualify what could otherwise be productive conversation.
Black women under no circumstances should be considered beneath laws that are designed to protect all women, and one would think black males would be the first to want equality under the law for their mothers, children, sisters and spouses, but in suggesting that chauvanistic behavior is "just the way we do things, and it's nobody's business if we do," or "slavery made us this way" is self-segregating and self-discriminating.
I don't think anyone willfully choses this for themselves, but I see it as a side effect of taking the race bait and and thereby justifying reprehensible behavior on racial grounds.
Again, I'm sure no one believes they are doing so, but I think it underlies every attempt to qualify concerns in these matters when they come from whites. Don't think anyone here does that What does it mean when things are said like "whites just want to see a black man go down," or "unless your black you'll never understand," or "what race are you?"
Some may think those are relevant questions, but I think they're no more valid in a sexual harassment case then similar ones would be from whites in order to suggest that only whites should opine on a case of corporate embezzlement by a white executive.
I'm not so idealistic or naive to beleive that the laws on the streets should be the same in the ghetto and the suburbs, but this isn't about a discussion between a pimp and his hookers, this is about the discourse between upper levels of management of a large corporation. Killa and Code can disagree all they like on how much influence Isiah has on "the youth of today" but I think it's undeniable he, as President of Basketball Operations (and Knicks Emperor at large) has a huge influence over the population of MSG employees.
So too Anushca, who, if memory serves me, was VP of Marketing for all of MSG -- this includes the WBNA Liberty and others. Like Isiah, she was a basketball legend and a fast-track executive who, I can only imagine, was an inspiration to many female athletes and employees at the Garden.
In the Imus case, misterearl rightfully and eloquently asked "How must the parents of those girls feel when their kids are referred to as 'nappy headed 'hos'", and I think the similar question must fairly be asked here: how must the many females who respected Anuchca feel when the words "black," "ho," and "bitch" resounded through the hallowed halls of the Garden? And how now must the parents of young women like those of the Liberty, or interns and employees at MSG, feel when they hear Isiah largely indifferent about the possible mistreatment of women under his watch (So long as it was same-race mistreatment)?
Whatever Isiah's influence within the black community, now that his thoughts on how black women can be spoken to are in the air they are influential, regardless of where they arose. Even more influential is the response to them from black community leaders. I believe that was the point of the article and this thread.
My problem in so many of these racial discussions is how defensive blacks become when one of theirs is under fire and whites look to how the community will respond. That's when we get the stuff like "leave Zeke alone", "the media loves to skewer us," or "they'd never go after Larry Bird like this," etc. While some of those notions may have validity, situations like these still present a high-profile opportunity for us, as a society to educate, raise the bar, and move the line forward.
The Imus case was another such opportunity, and that is pretty much the main basis of comparison between the two.
Perhaps one or two posters here has made the claim that saying it and being black is excusable. Aside from that, I defy you to name anyone esle who takes this position? Except for that one or two people, all posters here think its inexcusable to call a woman a bitch at the workplace black or white. If you disagree, please provide proof.
I too make a distinction, but not one that makes it acceptable for anyone. So lets be clear about that. Isiah also said it was unacceptable for anyone to say it, but it’s a pretty irresponsible postion to take publicly, especially when no one asked you in the first place. I have said all of these things before, numerous times in numerous threads, but perhaps you missed them or conviniently overlooked them, I'm willing to give you the benefit of the doubt on that.
I know where white people are coming from on this. We agree on certain aspects of this, but emotion gets in the way with the "i think its more offensive" thing, and then all nuance is lost. I tried to clarify that when I said:
He said he makes a distinction in terms of the degree of disaaproval. In his mind, and mine, its bad both ways, one is worse. How much worse one is than the other in his mind, is left open to interpretation. Maybe he quantifies the offensiveness of a black guy saying it as 98, and a white guy saying it is 100. Maybe its 50 vs. 100. We dont know.
And indeed we do not. This is something we can say with a certainty, his words are there, and there is no logical basis on which to debate it, but you keep trying to debate it. Not as bad, means bad still, but less bad relative to another thing. This quote is open and shut in the sense of both being bad, so where is the debate on this and why do you and others continue to mischaracterize it? 1st degree murder has a longer sentence than 2nd degree murder but a person dies both times, is the law saying one kind of murder is legal and the other is okay? No, and were are talking about the same kind of distinction here. Perhaps this is still bothersome to you, and I can understand that, but dont mischaracterize it.
Blue, you cherry picked comments here and there and took them out of context. I brought up Larry Bird in terms of comparing the influence that a retired, once-great NBA player who is now an executive, has on the children from their racial backgrounds. Maybe you think thats a cop out or the 'race card' as white people love to say, but it seems prerfectly germane to the discussion from where Im sitting.
Also, I am here arguing with someone about the influence that a black man has on black kids, and what the black community ought to do, and when I want to know if he is white or not-black that seems inappropriate to you? If so I have 2 questions:
1. Should the fact that I was a black kid, have black kids, live in a black neighborhood, have taught black kids for 10 years, and wrote my thesis about black kids, make my thoughts on black children a little more relevant than someone without such knowledge? I mean does that matter at all in evaluating my opinion on the topic?
2. How does an average white man come to understand in a meaningful way, who or what influences black kids? In other words, what is X non-black person basing their view of the black community on? Experience, academics, media? What? I think these are valid questions.
And this question brings me to the crux of the problem here: White people, in general don’t know much about the black experience in this country and have no desire to learn. Some dont want to learn out of meaness or apathy, but a great many dont want to learn because they think they know it already. So a white guy can argue with me about my community and whats goin on in it and other white guys are bothered by the fact that I don’t respect his or their opinions on my community as much as I respect my own? I don’t think most of you guys have a good, solid grasp of what you are talking about when it comes to the black community. Some have demonstrated that they have no clue.
All Im saying is, if I was talking about eskimos I think someone would want to know if I was an Eskimo, or from Alaska, or if I had studied it in school, or living with an Eskimo family or something. We would want to know that because if i hadnt done any of those things, people are going to rightly think, I dont know what the hell I'm talking about.
That’s pretty simple, and I’ll tell you what else is pretty simple, if a black man calls a black woman a b it is sexist and disrespectful, while if a white man says it to a black woman, there is the presumption of racism coupled with sexism that makes it worse. This is the hypothetical example I conjure in my head when I say I agree with isiah, but I can't for certain say this is what he was thinking although it certainly sounds that way.
BTW, I am no fan of Isiah as a man. hes not my lord and I dont look up to him or any of the things he says or does. he is a part of my life because he manages the team I love, and in that role I think he has done a mixed job, although I think this season is full of potential and I consider it his make it or break it season. He isnt even a real person to me. People who make so much money that they never have to work again are not real people to me. In that sense, Anucha is the only one who is real, but it doesn't mean her claims are real, we'll have to wait and see. I think something went on, but I am not sure what, but we'll see if we can get some kernels of truth about what hapened.
Race is a big deal in this country in case you guys haven’t noticed. We had a thread about Isiah allegedly saying “Bitch, I don’t give a **** about these white people" and
I was the first person to point out in that thread that the truly offensive part of that statement was him saying b. No one had even made a remark about that prior to me. Why? Because white guys found the 'white people' remark offensive, and and black people took offense to their being offended and the discussion travelled along racial lines, because white guys and black guys, like guys in general, aren’t super concerned about sexism and women's rights...........until now.
If Isiah had been accused of this at several jobs or with several women, I'd say we have a pattern developing that needs to be addressed in a more vociferous way. But, if you and others are truly concerned about double standards in our society, why not approach some things that sysematicallty harm millions of people instead of a high profile case about 1 woman, whose claims have not even been verified yet? Isnt systematic abuse more important than this one case?
For example:
How many Americans do you figure have even heard, for example, that black youth arrested for drug possession for the first time are incarcerated at a rate that is forty-eight times greater than the rate for white youth, even when all other factors surrounding the crime are identical (4)?
How many have heard that persons with "white sounding names," according to a massive national study, are fifty percent more likely to be called back for a job interview than those with "black sounding" names, even when all other credentials are the same (5)?
How many know that white men with a criminal record are slightly more likely to be called back for a job interview than black men without one, even when the men are equally qualified, and present themselves to potential employers in an identical fashion (6)?
How many have heard that according to the Justice Department, Black and Latino males are three times more likely than white males to have their vehicles stopped and searched by police, even though white males are over four times more likely to have illegal contraband in our cars on the occasions when we are searched (7)?
How many are aware that black and Latino students are about half as likely as whites to be placed in advanced or honors classes in school, and twice as likely to be placed in remedial classes? Or that even when test scores and prior performance would justify higher placement, students of color are far less likely to be placed in honors classes (8)? Or that students of color are 2-3 times more likely than whites to be suspended or expelled from school, even though rates of serious school rule infractions do not differ to any significant degree between racial groups (9)?
Fact is, few folks have heard any of these things before, suggesting how little impact scholarly research on the subject of racism has had on the general public, and how difficult it is to make whites, in particular, give the subject a second thought.
This is just the tip of the iceburg, this didn't touch upon women, immigrants who speak with heavy accents, the disabled, gays, etc. I posted the above to make a point about a specific form of discrimination that many here deny exists. We can't get anywhere denying the truth. I dont think I'm doing that about Isiah, though I agree some are. But others are denying a far more important truth with far more important consequences and I'd like to have that addressed if we are going to act like we are serious about changing society and fighting for justice.
[Edited by - Killa4luv on 09-24-2007 10:27 PM]
