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Marbury O.K. With Vick's Dog Fighting
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TMS
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8/22/2007  3:23 PM
Posted by playa2:

In the sports world it was not.

I watched shows "Sports Reporters" and other sports shows and they spent more time talking about vick and bonds and donaghy and the NBA was and after thought.

when the news broke about Donaghy it was the backpage headline of every newspaper in the city & the lead story on every sports highlight show, are you kidding me? maybe the coverage has died down since because Vick is the new sexy story to cover, but when it first came out it didn't get any less sports news coverage.
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Andrew
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8/22/2007  3:33 PM
Rembee. Written my MJ Miller, is an example what I'm speaking of. Obviously not all rodeos are created equally. I also wouldn't want to completely put all faith into what a animal activist site states either.

There is a lot of controversy over rodeos and those opposed to them are adamant and emotional about the issue. There is sometimes a lot of misinformation spread and the sport of rodeo gets put on the same level as **** fighting, dog fighting or bullfighting. Nothing could be further from the truth.

The fact of the matter is that animals are not harmed or maimed in any way during a rodeo and certainly never killed. It's actually a lot more dangerous for the cowboys than it is for the animals. The PRCA has rules governing the treatment and care of all the animals involved in rodeo and there is always a veterinarian present at all events to insure their health and welfare. All animals are inspected and evaluated on an ongoing basis and are very well taken care of.

Rodeo got it's beginnings as a competition for cowboys doing what they did on the open range and ranches while herding cattle and other everyday ranching activities. The events didn't just spring out of someone's imagination dreaming up a new sport. Today it has become an industry all its own and has evolved into a professional competition like many others with a circuit around the country. This sport uses animals in the competition as do several other sporting activities like horseracing, dog racing, the circus, etc.

There are people out there, the animal rights fanatics, that want to ban all these activities. I call them fanatics because they make it their business to spread lies and misinformation to advance their cause. Their "cause" is to ban the use of animals in any way by humans. They want to ban rodeo, circuses, zoos, hunting, fishing, horseback riding, raising of farm animals, the use of any animal for food or clothing, the organized breeding or ownership of animals or holding any animal in captivity.

That's right, if they had their way, you could no longer take your kids to the zoo. You could no longer eat meat of any kind, including fish. No eggs, no milk. Everyone would have to become vegetarians. No more leather shoes or wool products. You can't have any pets so you won't be able to have a cat, dog, bird or whatever you have as a pet because you are holding them in captivity... You see where this goes if you take the stand that man can't use animals for any reason?

These fanatics will use any method they can to advance their "cause" including spreading misinformation and outright lies and rodeo has been one of their favorite targets for some time now. When one of them says that animals are tortured or killed during a rodeo, well that is simply not true. If it were, rodeo would be banned just like **** fighting, dog fighting and the Spanish type of bullfighting IS banned in this country, (and well they should be) but rodeo continues because they DON'T harm the animals in the competition.

Rodeo will continue and they will continue to take care of their animal's health and welfare. They will continue to comply with not only the rules set in place in the industry but the laws of this country that provide for animal welfare and their humane care and treatment.

For those of you that are unsure, I invite you to attend a rodeo and take a close look at the animals yourself. I guarantee you will find they are very fit and healthy and don't show any signs of injury or mistreatment. In fact the animals are as much athletes as the cowboys and you will find they are as fit and healthy as you would expect an athlete to be.

For me, I will continue to enjoy the rodeo now and then... and the zoo. I might even go fishing later...

Thanks for reading.
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Andrew
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8/22/2007  3:40 PM
Actually a better example than the previous article would be this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rodeo#Animal_cruelty_controversies

Myths and actual modern practice

Some accusations of cruelty are based on misunderstanding. For example, it is a myth that a bucking horse is a wild, terrified animal. The modern bronc is not a truly feral horse. Most bucking horses today are specifically bred for use in rodeos. A proven bucking horse can be sold for $8000 to $10,000, making "rough stock" a valuable investment that requires proper care. Likewise, bucking bulls are also selectively bred. Most are allowed to grow up in a natural, semi-wild condition on the open range, but also have to be gentled and tamed in order to be managed from the ground, safely loaded into trailers, vaccinated and wormed, and to load in and out of bucking chutes.[57]

Young bucking horses are initially introduced to work with cloth dummies attached to the saddle.[57] Others are already well-trained on the ground, some champion bucking horses got their start as spoiled riding horses that had learned to quickly and effectively unseat riders.[58] Because of the rigors of travel and the short bursts of high intensity work required, most horses in a bucking string are at least 6 or 7 years old before they are used extensively, and are expected to be sound performers for many years.[57] Awards are given to the owners of the best bucking horses, who are respected as equine athletes and perform for many years.[59]
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RemBee76
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8/22/2007  3:49 PM
Thats really the best you can do, Andrew, some guy (am I supposed to know who MJ Miller is?) who says "trust me, Animals love the Rodeo" without any supporting argument, while hoisting the falsehood that the same people who want to ban Rodeos want to ban Zoos? And you caution me to not believe everything I read on the internet. You might want to think about heeding your own advice.

My information comes from multiple sources, not one, and the arguments I read are backed up by sources like this...
As a pathologist and former meat inspector, I believe my colleagues when they report horrendous injuries to rodeo cattle. Dr. C. G. Haber, a veterinarian with thirty years experience as a USDA meat inspector says: "The rodeo folks send their animals to the packing houses where...I have seen cattle so extensively bruised that the only areas in which the skin was attached was the head, neck, legs, and belly. I have seen animals with six to eight ribs broken from the spine and at times puncturing the lungs. I have seen as much as two and three gallons of free blood accumulated under the detached skin."

A career USDA meat inspection veterinarian, Dr. Robert Fetzner, Director of Slaughter Operations for FSIS (USDA) stated in our phone conversation on September 9, 1998, "Lots of rodeo animals went to slaughter. I found broken ribs, punctured lungs, hematomas, broken legs, severed tracheas and the ligamenta nuchae were torn loose." Torn ligamenta nuchae are broken necks.

So no, I don't take everything I read on the internet as Gold, you'd pretty much have to be an idiot to do that.
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knixphan
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8/22/2007  3:49 PM
Well, the whole Rodeo thing is a little 'nascar' for my tastes anyway, so it's hard for me to want to spend too much time defending the practice (but hey, if it sells tickets, that means it's got an audience)

Meanwhile, my stance on dog cruelty is pertty much the same as any intelligent human being, as is my stance on Marbury's mouth.
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Andrew
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8/22/2007  4:02 PM
Rembee, I did state that that article was not the best example, but an example none the less. I cautioned you not on what you read on the internet, but on animal activist sites as they have a clear agenda and do tend to only present one side of the story.

Myself, I can't give say one way or the other whether rodeos are comparable to dog fighting. Its possible in the very worst form they are, but I don't think you can group the industry as a whole in the same category.
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RemBee76
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8/22/2007  4:08 PM
Naturally the animals that compete in Rodeos are healthy and uninjured, that’s what slaughterhouses are for. I like the line in your wikipedia source that says "calves are rarely used for more than one season". uh huh, and then what happens to them?

Andrew, simply, you can search the internet and find "reliable" sources that will tell you global warming is a myth cooked up by wacko environmentalists, and there are probably plenty of contributors to the internet that will tell you not to believe in evolution.

Look at both sides, and go with the opinion that is most plausible to you.


Its like a groupie website, or bitter ex-wives club. -Sebstar
Andrew
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8/22/2007  4:12 PM
Hey, I in no way support rodeos. I just don't think they are comparable to dog fighting.

Rodeo calves to the slaughterhouse....not a pretty thought right? Calves bred for food to the slaughterhouse is not that different.
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Bippity10
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8/22/2007  4:18 PM
After a lot of thought, I have to say that I'm actually okay with dog fighting.
I just hope that people will like me
RemBee76
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8/22/2007  4:20 PM
Posted by Andrew:
Myself, I can't give say one way or the other whether rodeos are comparable to dog fighting. Its possible in the very worst form they are, but I don't think you can group the industry as a whole in the same category.

Some might say there shouldn't be degrees of animal cruelty, whether an industry is regulated or not.

I guess I'm not one of them, as I don't think Rodeo Wranglers should go to jail, while I think Dog Fighters (or whatever they are referred to) certainly should.

But my point wasn't to say they are precisely equivalent, only to point out precedent for Vick's behavior in our society. Dog Fighting is legal in Georgia, for heavens sake.

And I'd bet everything I own that had Vick been a white athlete with a school boy image, the media response to this would be far different.

A black kid with a gun in High School? We shrug, maybe they should get more metal detectors.

A white kid with a gun in High School? My god, what is our culture of violence doing to our children?

It’s all just more of the same.





Its like a groupie website, or bitter ex-wives club. -Sebstar
RemBee76
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8/22/2007  4:21 PM
Posted by Andrew:

Calves bred for food to the slaughterhouse is not that different.

If you think there is no difference if you beat the **** out of them first, then yeah, you got a point.

Its like a groupie website, or bitter ex-wives club. -Sebstar
Pharzeone
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8/22/2007  4:25 PM
Rodeo and their sponsors are no more better than dog fighters but have the faces of middle America, so in general the public turns away. A good old boy system is place there. Cattle are shocked into obedience, testicles are clamped and bulls are killed when no longer of use.

http://www.sharkonline.org/?P=0000000349

I been echoing the cries of dog racing as just brutal as dog fighting. In fact the sport of dog fighting roots began on dog farms made for dog races. Once again, take a look at who attend these events and I get the sense why the practice is acceptable allowed to continue. Most states have recognized that dog racing in its basic concept is animal cruelty. But the good old states of America still allow the practice to continue along with liberal states like Mass. and New Hampshire. One of the hot beds for dog fighting is the state of Florida but while not legal, it is not pursued because it would mean shutting down many dog farms that generate revenue for the state.

http://www.hsus.org/pets/issues_affecting_our_pets/running_for_their_lives_the_realities_of_greyhound_racing/greyhound_racing_facts.html


So my basic concept for the law makers who were outspoken about Vick is what's next? Is Vick the crown jewel of this investigation.

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Andrew
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8/22/2007  4:26 PM
Posted by RemBee76:
Posted by Andrew:

Calves bred for food to the slaughterhouse is not that different.

If you think there is no difference if you beat the **** out of them first, then yeah, you got a point.

Way to take what I wrote out of context and put your own spin on it.

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djsunyc
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8/22/2007  4:34 PM
everyone needs to stop until basketballjones chimes in.
RemBee76
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8/22/2007  4:35 PM
Thats a cop-out Andrew. Explain to me what you meant then, when you said they were "not that different" that should have precluded my pointing out how yes, actually, there is a big difference.

You sense you are slipping in a debate here you have two choices:

A) accuse the guy debating with you of being complicit in a "culture of excuses".
B) accuse him of adding spin to your arguments.

Neither adds much to the discussion.


[Edited by - rembee76 on 08-22-2007 4:36 PM]
Its like a groupie website, or bitter ex-wives club. -Sebstar
misterearl
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8/22/2007  4:37 PM
Marv - indulge me for a moment regading the reasons behind Marbury's public image.

You know, whether he's handing out free stuff in the projects or at a public school... or making an appearance at a basketball camp for children that remind him of his misfortune, he seems to be too many inappropriate places other than practicing basketball.

Marbury pops up on Oprah. "Damn, doesn't that damn Oprah have enough money areddy?"

Marbury has this nasty habit of making himself accessible when a newsperson shoves a microphone in his face. Instead of saying something along the lines of "everybody loves Mike Vick", he'll actually make an honest effort to describe an honest opinion. No teleprompter or notes. Just from the heart.

Marbury is not only a coach killer and a playoff-dream killer, he's a roster killer and a cap killer.

Marbury talked to Anucha once. It didn't go well. Something about doing something other than practicing.

Marbury passed the legal limit for number of tatoos in 2001. C'mon, who needs a tatoo on their neck?

Marbury wept openly for Katrina victims and people thought he was the one with the problem. Meanwhile, Brownie was doing a "helluva job" while people died in the streets of an American city for being too poor to move. The bodies were covered with bedsheets and festered in the Summer sun.

Marbury could win a championship and his image would remain the same.

He is just a man with the same fragile flaws we all have. The only difference is that his "visual" and verbal flaws are documented and played over and over on every possible media outlet.

Here's the capper... I really don't think Marbury's public image needs any work. I for one, hope the brother never changes. He has a generous heart of gold and that is more that I can say for a LOT of people who only talk about doing something that makes their life of value to someone else.

He already works hard. You don't get to be no all star in the NBA at only 6 feet tall by sitting on yo' butt. I just hope Steph's knees stop hurting, he learns the joy of letting down his inner city-shell on the court and gives dap whether dap is due or not due ... and makes the extra pass more in rhythm with his teammates.

The rest will take care of itself






[Edited by - misterearl on 08-22-2007 5:05 PM]
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BasketballJones
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8/22/2007  6:01 PM
Posted by djsunyc:

everyone needs to stop until basketballjones chimes in.

Well, obviously it is a serious subject, worthy of much consideration before one replies. However, I don't have time, so I’ll just spout off Marbury-style.

I don’t have a problem with what Marbury says. I enjoy Marbury’s statements. He has a way with words:

"He flexed a real hard juice card, I know that” Is one of my personal favorites. “I want to see the spit on your mouth.” Are you kidding? Where else are we gonna find a quote machine like Marbury? We need more of this, not less.

As for the dog fighting issue, it obviously isn’t as clear cut as we’d like it to be. Maybe there are other activities that we ignore that are nearly as bad or worse. Suffice it to say that I’d like to see less abuse of animals, not more.

One other thing - I have relatives who were farmers. They did not abuse their animals. They treated them well right up until the day they killed them. That sounds like a joke, but I mean to say that they treated them with compassion. When they killed them, they tried to do it quickly. Of course they did wind up killing them, but I think the animals had a good life up until that time.

Today we have huge mechanized farms and assembly lines for slaughter. I don’t think the animals have a good life, and I don’t think they are always killed as quickly as they should be. We probably eat to much meat for our health anyway, so maybe this will all change soon.



[Edited by - BasketballJones on 08-22-2007 18:03]
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djsunyc
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8/22/2007  6:13 PM
this forum is holding rembee back from bigger and better things.
Marv
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8/22/2007  6:20 PM
Posted by misterearl:

Marv - indulge me for a moment regading the reasons behind Marbury's public image.

You know, whether he's handing out free stuff in the projects or at a public school... or making an appearance at a basketball camp for children that remind him of his misfortune, he seems to be too many inappropriate places other than practicing basketball.

Marbury pops up on Oprah. "Damn, doesn't that damn Oprah have enough money areddy?"

Marbury has this nasty habit of making himself accessible when a newsperson shoves a microphone in his face. Instead of saying something along the lines of "everybody loves Mike Vick", he'll actually make an honest effort to describe an honest opinion. No teleprompter or notes. Just from the heart.

Marbury is not only a coach killer and a playoff-dream killer, he's a roster killer and a cap killer.

Marbury talked to Anucha once. It didn't go well. Something about doing something other than practicing.

Marbury passed the legal limit for number of tatoos in 2001. C'mon, who needs a tatoo on their neck?

Marbury wept openly for Katrina victims and people thought he was the one with the problem. Meanwhile, Brownie was doing a "helluva job" while people died in the streets of an American city for being too poor to move. The bodies were covered with bedsheets and festered in the Summer sun.

Marbury could win a championship and his image would remain the same.

He is just a man with the same fragile flaws we all have. The only difference is that his "visual" and verbal flaws are documented and played over and over on every possible media outlet.

Here's the capper... I really don't think Marbury's public image needs any work. I for one, hope the brother never changes. He has a generous heart of gold and that is more that I can say for a LOT of people who only talk about doing something that makes their life of value to someone else.

He already works hard. You don't get to be no all star in the NBA at only 6 feet tall by sitting on yo' butt. I just hope Steph's knees stop hurting, he learns the joy of letting down his inner city-shell on the court and gives dap whether dap is due or not due ... and makes the extra pass more in rhythm with his teammates.

The rest will take care of itself






[Edited by - misterearl on 08-22-2007 5:05 PM]

earl a couple of statements i want to respond to -
Marbury could win a championship and his image would remain the same.

i really don't think so. he wins a championship he's gold here forever. every "image" issue fades deeply in the background. one way i reference this is recalling this board's reaction when he was traded here. almost unanimously posters were gaga about his arrival, regardless of whatever image issues existed from his departure from minnesota, his drunk driving conviction and jail time, his controversy in reacting to d'antoni's system in phoenix, etc.

I just hope Steph ... makes the extra pass more in rhythm with his teammates.

to me this has always been the true rub of the matter with steph. he's not a great natural set-up man and distributor as a point guard. he's very effective in many aspects of the game, but he's in the position of setting up his teams to win yet too often doesn’t seem to have the knack to make the needed plays from the point when the team requires it. He’s a great clutch scorer and has had his share of heroics, but he’s not a sg he’s a point, so if he’s gonna dominate the ball but not make the team run more smoothly and effectively he’s not going to be a winning point.

For me, the image stuff is all background chatter to the key point of his effectiveness or lack thereof on the court. Since he, and the team, haven‘t been effective here, the background chatter has risen to the foreground.
playa2
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8/22/2007  6:24 PM
Posted by TMS:

[quote]Posted by playa2:

In the sports world it was not.

I watched shows "Sports Reporters" and other sports shows and they spent more time talking about vick and bonds and donaghy and the NBA was and after thought.
-----------------------------------------------------------------
when the news broke about Donaghy it was the backpage headline of every newspaper in the city & the lead story on every sports highlight show, are you kidding me? maybe the coverage has died down since because Vick is the new sexy story to cover, but when it first came out it didn't get any less sports news coverage.

But after the intial story no sportsshow was talking about NBA Scandal.

Vicks case could have no updated info to put on the news , but they re-cap run it every day cmon man.

JAMES DOLAN on Isiah : He's a good friend of mine and of the organization and I will continue to solicit his views. He will always have strong ties to me and the team.
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