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What kind of team are we
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misterearl
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8/9/2007  9:51 AM
Say What?

>>IT managed to make worst possible moves every time we thought he cannot do worse.

arkrud - please speak for yourself. Every time "we" who?

The moves made by the suits can be questioned ad infinitum. Are you suggesting that you have a clue about what the next "best" Knicks roster move should be?

If so, I'd certainly like to hear it
once a knick always a knick
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misterearl
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8/9/2007  9:58 AM
arkrud - please pay close attention

On the issue of fans who feel entitled to insult players as stupid or lazy. Let me break it down for you arkrud. The racist chants from FK Zeta supporters is an extension of similar written expressions from so-called Knicks "fans" who feel compelled to label basketball players with insulting tags.

Once you feel empowered to insult someone in public, the next thing you have is a mob that feels its duty to follow suit.

Is that what you think sportsmanship is about?
once a knick always a knick
MS
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8/9/2007  10:58 AM
Our players are lazy there is no labeling there.....

Curry, Crawford, Marbury, Zach, Nate all those guys have dogged it on defense and been selfish on the court. And their a lot of players that aren't rocket scientists out there.

Are we a dumb team? Yes, as far as turnovers, taking care of the ball, playing the right way the knicks rarely do those things. We don't have a player that can really make a great entry pass and we have 5 guards on the roster that to me means your lazy if you have been in the league and are considered a veteran and can't do something that simple.

Would you consider Curry a dumb player? Yes, and their is nothing racist about that. It's because we have watched the guy pick up the same offensive foul time and time again, he can't pass out of a double team. Can he become a smart player, yea he can but in order to do that it's up to him not to be lazy.

Simply pointing out the faults of the team instead of creating some illusion of what our guys can do has nothing to do with making generalizations about the background of the players....
TrueBlue
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8/9/2007  11:20 AM
Posted by COSSUCKS:

Paxxon benefitted from 6 years in a row averaging 20 wins a season. As bad as Isiah has been his record doesnt touch that.


And why haven't we benefitted from going 5 of 6yrs not making the playoffs? We could have benefitted the same if we wouldn't have traded for Marbury and Curry and kept our picks.
LMFAO @ the Bio [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephon_Marbury[/url]
misterearl
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8/9/2007  11:40 AM
MS - the more I read your postage, the more I think to myself "why bother?" but it's a slow day so allow me to counter your insults of players point by point.

Are we a dumb team?

The Knicks are a roster in transition moving into the second year of a new coaching system. Can team turnovers be, in part, attributed to familiarity as much as the simple-minded analysis of being a "dumb" team?

>>We don't have a player that can really make a great entry pass

Wrong

>>we have 5 guards on the roster that to me means your lazy if you have been in the league and are considered a veteran and can't do something that simple.

Marbury - playing through pain is not lazy, say what you will about the less-than-perfect accuracy of his passing but he played solid ball last season unless you were only watching with biased eyes

Crawford - not lazy, at nearly 6'6 he is all legs and has a unique physique that may not be suited for covering the many shooting guards around the league. I've always preferred Jamal at the point where he could use that height to an advantage

Collins - definately not lazy when you consider playing at Temple for that crazy man. Mardy is steady. I like Mardy in the rotation at the guard spot.

Nate - bursting with energy, Isiah understands if you tame him too much he loses his fire, it will be interesting to see how his point guard experiment continues. But to call Nate lazy is a gross error. You don't play at that level at 5'7 being anything less than relentless.

Dickau - not lazy, maybe a bit on the small side with a suspect shot, but not lazy

Fred Jones - not lazy and at 205 could be a spot defender

>>Would you consider Curry a dumb player?

No more than I consider David Lee a dumb player when he makes a mistake. Besides, why does Curry face consistent double and triple teams? Because the young man is a solid threat to score the majority of times he touches the freakin' pill. Let teams cover him with only one player and see what happens...



[Edited by - misterearl on 08-09-2007 11:44 AM]
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Bippity10
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8/9/2007  11:53 AM
MisterEarl I'm with you on the dumb thing. It is a bit harsh. But please enough with the racial insuations. Can we just assume that there are racists on this site as there is in all forms of life but that the majority of the people on the site could care less about race and would call anyone dumb or lazy that they feel is dumb and lazy. Some of these same people were kissing posters of Latrell 3 years ago(I know I posted with them), so let's put this to rest.

I personally don't know the intellect of the players. But I can tell that some of them have not spent a lot of time listening to coaches concerning the defensive end. If you can honestly watch Curry and Craw and Nate(at times) and say that they are giving their all on the defensive end then we are never going to agree on that issue and again should move forward.

As for the turnovers. I think unfamiliarity does lead to turnovers. But Curry, Marbs, Craw, Nate, David have been together for a few years. That's a lot of practices and a lot of games. That excuse shouldn't have been valid last year, and it definitely shouldn't be valid this year. Most of us play ball and we know it takes a while to understand the intracacies of your teammates game. But to understand enough to avoid a few turnovers it shouldn't take more than a month or two. Our players were high turnover players before they arrived and are high turnover players now that they are here. For them to decrease their turnovers they need to concentrate with the ball and value it. If a college team can improve this in 3 months while preparing for their conference schedule so can the best players in the world.
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MS
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8/9/2007  12:12 PM
Jamal has the same exact body as latrell sprewell, richard hamilton a number of guards, he is lazy on defense, give me a break when was the last time you really saw him fight to get in the play. However I think more blame should be on Isiah for that because if you aren't held to a defensive standard and are allowed to do anything on offense i guess you don't focus on defense....

Eddy Curry, David Lee comparison? Another typical comment from you, Lee is one of the smartest players on the team in terms of overal ball iq and getting people the ball, he make curry's job a lot easier with his passing

And Nate couldn't be more lazy on the defensive end, what game are you watching, he goes after rebounds and throws his body around but when it comes to on ball defense he doesn't but the same effort he does on offense, and rarely does he ever pass, he was probably one of the most selfish guards in the league last season......obviously we saw a different player this summer, so don't make up another example.....

Marbury played fine last year, but what he did wasn't anything special he gets a lot of credit and i liked the way he played towards the end, but his horrific start was a big reason the team went in the dumps for the first two months of the season.....

Seriously what game are you watching who can make the entry pass????? Your statements are more blatent than mine, and no one accused collins of being lazy. And Dikau and Jones aren't going to be on the team........your assements are laughable, your making excuses for why guys don't try on defense.....

Please ask a majority of the people who know anything about the sport if the knicks are lazy, you'll get the same answer.....
misterearl
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8/9/2007  12:21 PM
MS - if you were paying attention the Eddy Curry - David Lee comparison was not about their relative ability but the portrayal of their flaws and perception of their mistakes. While he commands double teams and is responsible for protecting the paint against the biggest players in the league Eddy is lazy. While Lee needs work on defending the perimeter he is permanently labelled as "intelligent" and gets to play through his errors.

you don't see any difference in treatment?

[Edited by - misterearl on 08-09-2007 12:26 PM]
once a knick always a knick
MS
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8/9/2007  12:34 PM
I won't say a bad word about balkman and i won't say a bad word about david lee. Curry's treatment comes from the fact, that he is fat and lazy. Two things you can't debate. Curry has all the talent in the world, his verticale and ability to run the floor are better than just about every center in the league.

Curry hasn't really improved his game all that much since he has been here. His first season he was grossly out of shape. He was doing a lot of the same things he did his last year with the Bulls, he did last year.....He was lighter on his feet last year, and he has always been money down low, so being more in shape was a big factor in his growth

The game he played when he wasn't named to the allstar game is the game he should always play. He doesn't try, and takes himself out of most plays when they are not drawn for him.

Lee is one of the games best finishers, best rebounders and is better than just about everyone in the league with his off hand. So I don't take shots at a guy who improved his accuracy but on more weight and raised his free throw percentage. He isn't smart because he is white he is smart because he knows the game and never takes a play off. He is not a good defender when he is checking 3's.

Eddy Curry if he tried every play would average
26pts 12rbs 2blks
nixluva
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8/9/2007  12:35 PM
Posted by Bippity10:

Nixluva I have a Sports Illustrated pre-season preview that is sitting on my desk that predicted the Knicks to win the East in '99. They underachieved during the regular season so that is why their playoff run is considered to be somethign amazing. The reality is that it was a good team that finally got their act together.
I remember that. I wasn't trying to say that they were a bad team. I was merely saying that they weren't playing like a team you'd expect to be in the finals. Just like other teams have made it even tho it wasn't expected they would go that far. You can never know how things will turn out. Dallas looked like a pretty big favorite to make at least the WCF's based on their season. They got beat by a flawed team that got their act together at the right time.

My main point is this team doesn't have to be perfect or prototypical of a title team, as some have tried to explain what that should be. Miami won and I actually hated that team in terms of it's make up and chemistry. Yet they found a way to win. They weren't a team that played with flawless precision like the Magic Lakers, Bird Celtics or many other title teams have. They were a very flawed team, but they still won. They had talent and it came together at the right time.
Posted by Bippity10:

The same two guys on this board keep mentioning talent as the reason whey they think this team will do well. And the same 80 people keep saying that they know that the team is talented and that talent hasn't been what has held us back. It's leadership and a commitment to doing the necessary things to win. Our two best players don't play defense at all. This will hold us back no matter how we want to sugarcoat all the other things around it. Until our two best players committ to being leaders and all-around players we all know that this team has no chance to ever win a title. We can argue, and argue, and have circle conversations but in the end everyone on this board knows that I am 100% correct.
I don't disagree with everything you've said, but I will say that there are those who think we don't have the talent to win or else they wouldn't keep saying that we don't have a SuperStar or Franchise player. They clearly don't think our talent is good enough, in addition to the lack of leadership issue. They've said that we have nothing but a bunch of role players coming up from all of our draft picks. They place the lack of bigtime talent as a higher reason for this teams failure. They've mentioned that our big three lacks any All Star players. They ask why we couldn't have made the deal for KG. We need Kobe to have a chance, etc.

The idea of having some real leadership is a part of the problem, but I think that we will see more leadership coming from within. Just remember that we have a lot of young guys that are just now starting to recognize their roles and in the case of Curry, his impact on the team. I think guys like him, Q, Lee and Balk will emerge as leaders to a degree and even Zach. None of these guys is a leader like Magic, but you can't always expect that you'll have that. As long as they come together and make sure that this team gives 110% and that they're committed to playing winning ball that's what is most important.

On top of that you have Isiah, who I think will continue to put his stamp on this teams persona. I liked that they reflected his personality last year. They were feisty and never quit. I think the more they play under him the more they'll take on his personality.
Now you don't have to buy into any of this at this point. This is my take on what I see happening.
Bippity10
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8/9/2007  12:45 PM
Nixluva I'm one of those people that thinks we have loads of talent but don't have a franchise player. I think Curry has the talent to be one, but doesn't have the mindset to be one. Zach could possibly be looked at the same way. Curry is as impossible to guard as any player in the league. He has the ability to lead this team today. But 6 years in and we are still wondering if he will ever have the mindset to achieve this level. After 6 years of seeing slow to no changes many fans lose faith that it will ever happen. Those fans would rather move away from the notion that Eddie will eventually get it, and maybe find someone with a little more fire in the belly. I guarantee you that if Eddie was putting up the same numbers but busting his bizzalls, the view of this team would be entirely more positive. Same goes for Zach.

Two extremely talented guys who dominate the offensive end and do little else on the floor, but when they are criticized for this lack of an all-around game they become defensive and protective of their offense. This leaves many fans with little faith that they will ever change. For 10 seasons we watched little old Charlie Ward add a tiny thing to his game from season to season. Fans can't be optimistic until you start seeing this type of improvement from Curry. And since Defense is his biggest issue, and since defense is the easiest part of your game to make initial improvements, not seeing this is a downer.
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misterearl
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8/9/2007  12:48 PM
>>Lee is one of the games best finishers, best rebounders and is better than just about everyone in the league with his off hand.

MS - you think David Lee will use his magnificent gifts you describe to earn a starting spot over Zach Randolph?

It would seem all he needs to do is outwork Zach in practice.

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nixluva
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8/9/2007  1:08 PM
Posted by Bippity10:

Nixluva I'm one of those people that thinks we have loads of talent but don't have a franchise player. I think Curry has the talent to be one, but doesn't have the mindset to be one. Zach could possibly be looked at the same way. Curry is as impossible to guard as any player in the league. He has the ability to lead this team today. But 6 years in and we are still wondering if he will ever have the mindset to achieve this level. After 6 years of seeing slow to no changes many fans lose faith that it will ever happen. Those fans would rather move away from the notion that Eddie will eventually get it, and maybe find someone with a little more fire in the belly. I guarantee you that if Eddie was putting up the same numbers but busting his bizzalls, the view of this team would be entirely more positive. Same goes for Zach.

Two extremely talented guys who dominate the offensive end and do little else on the floor, but when they are criticized for this lack of an all-around game they become defensive and protective of their offense. This leaves many fans with little faith that they will ever change. For 10 seasons we watched little old Charlie Ward add a tiny thing to his game from season to season. Fans can't be optimistic until you start seeing this type of improvement from Curry. And since Defense is his biggest issue, and since defense is the easiest part of your game to make initial improvements, not seeing this is a downer.

You're right! So far we haven't yet seen the things we need to see from our better players. I think that the process of making them over has already begun tho. I could be wrong, but I sense that this team is gonna start to show a higher level of play and professionalism than it's shown in the past. My personal view is that we made too much of Curry's 6 years and not enough of his own personal development. It's not the years in the league it's about how he matures as a person. Everyone develops at their own rate. I was a guy that was always more mature than my friends. It's just my nature. But i've seen some of my friends eventually reach a level of maturity, but it just took them longer. I get the sense that this is the case with Curry and Zach.

I'm expecting big things from here on from this team. I liked some of the things I started to see happening last year. I think that was just the beginning for them tho. This should be a very telling season for this team. Steph should have no excuses from the very start of the year. The same goes for just about all the returning players. Q i'll cut some slack due to the surgery, but overall these guys should come out of the gate looking like they know what they're doing.
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8/9/2007  1:22 PM
Posted by MS:

Jamal has the same exact body as latrell sprewell

They both weigh about the same & are the same height, but Spree appeared more ripped & had a more solid build than Jamal does.




[Edited by - TMS on 08-09-2007 1:22 PM]
After 7 years & 40K+ posts, banned by martin for calling Nalod a 'moron'. Awesome.
misterearl
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8/9/2007  1:38 PM
>>Jamal has the same exact body as latrell sprewell, richard hamilton a number of guards, he is lazy on defense....

Hamilton is a legit 6'7 193, Crawford is listed at 6'5 190 which I think is including a 20lb lead weight belt under his shorts. I can't think of many guards as slender as Jamal. MS claiming Jamal shares the same build as "a number of guards" is just good old fashioned nonsense.

Spree was one of the best-conditioned athletes of his era. He was also borderline crazy. Many of us Knicks fans dug that about him while he was here.

You can never have too many unpredictible, untamed, spontaneous, crazy guys




[Edited by - misterearl on 08-09-2007 1:59 PM]
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BasketballJones
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8/9/2007  1:52 PM
Posted by misterearl:

You can never have too many unpredictible, untamed, spontaneous, crazy guys

Now that's something we can hopefully all agree on. Isiah, bring Artest back to New York!

[Edited by - basketballjones on 08-09-2007 13:53]
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MS
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8/9/2007  2:10 PM
Actually it was proven last year that Lee was the best power foward on the team but had to deal with jared jefferies, jerome james and channing frye starting before him.....

And would I rather have lee starting next to Curry, yes i would because he doesn't need the ball to be effective. You play Lee the entire game you'll get better results, you play collins over crawford we are a better team......

Hamilton is 3 pounds heavier and 1inch taller which is pretty similar, spree weas 6-6 190 with arms that were just more defined by birth than crawford,kevin martin has a similiar build, and if you look back there were a ton of lanky players. He has all the tools to be special he is long and lanky, has quick hands and feet, you can justify not playing defense all you want, you use your stregths
Bippity10
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8/9/2007  2:34 PM
Pippen was as skinny as Crawford when he came to the league. But through hard work and dedication to winning he was able to change his body over the years. Still waiting on Craw to show some sort of physical progress.
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Bippity10
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8/9/2007  2:43 PM
Posted by nixluva:
Posted by Bippity10:

Nixluva I'm one of those people that thinks we have loads of talent but don't have a franchise player. I think Curry has the talent to be one, but doesn't have the mindset to be one. Zach could possibly be looked at the same way. Curry is as impossible to guard as any player in the league. He has the ability to lead this team today. But 6 years in and we are still wondering if he will ever have the mindset to achieve this level. After 6 years of seeing slow to no changes many fans lose faith that it will ever happen. Those fans would rather move away from the notion that Eddie will eventually get it, and maybe find someone with a little more fire in the belly. I guarantee you that if Eddie was putting up the same numbers but busting his bizzalls, the view of this team would be entirely more positive. Same goes for Zach.

Two extremely talented guys who dominate the offensive end and do little else on the floor, but when they are criticized for this lack of an all-around game they become defensive and protective of their offense. This leaves many fans with little faith that they will ever change. For 10 seasons we watched little old Charlie Ward add a tiny thing to his game from season to season. Fans can't be optimistic until you start seeing this type of improvement from Curry. And since Defense is his biggest issue, and since defense is the easiest part of your game to make initial improvements, not seeing this is a downer.

You're right! So far we haven't yet seen the things we need to see from our better players. I think that the process of making them over has already begun tho. I could be wrong, but I sense that this team is gonna start to show a higher level of play and professionalism than it's shown in the past. My personal view is that we made too much of Curry's 6 years and not enough of his own personal development. It's not the years in the league it's about how he matures as a person. Everyone develops at their own rate. I was a guy that was always more mature than my friends. It's just my nature. But i've seen some of my friends eventually reach a level of maturity, but it just took them longer. I get the sense that this is the case with Curry and Zach.

I'm expecting big things from here on from this team. I liked some of the things I started to see happening last year. I think that was just the beginning for them tho. This should be a very telling season for this team. Steph should have no excuses from the very start of the year. The same goes for just about all the returning players. Q i'll cut some slack due to the surgery, but overall these guys should come out of the gate looking like they know what they're doing.

See you and I are almost on the same page except for one thing. I don't think hustle is a sign of maturity. When I was 10 years old I was still picking boogers and trying to wipe them on girls. I also have a scar that I got from when I was 10 for driving through two gym doors that were made of glass while going for a loose ball(now if you want to say my age led to a low basketall IQ that led to me diving through doors than I'm on board with you. But my age did not effect my hustle). At 13 me and a friend of mine made our AAU coach stay after practice to teach us how to become better defenders. It wasn't because we were mature it was because we both had this innate drive. When someone scored on us, it was painful. It made us angry. I didn't want to just score 30 pts. I wanted to score 30 and hold my opponent to 0. I didn't want to simply outscore him, I wanted to obliterate him. I never once remember a coach having to teach me to think this way. Never once. And all the guys that I played with that didn't think this way, I never saw them change unless they were on a team of 12 guys that thought this way, and this was the only way they could avoid being murdered by their teammmates. That was a the desire of an immature person whose dreams of the NBA died many years ago. So when I see a guy like Curry with out of this world ability I can't accept using age as an excuse for not hustling on the floor. We shouldn't have to wait until he reaches his prime before we expect him to turn it up a notch. On everything else though, I agree with you. The setting is prime for these guys to show massive improvement. I would think, only a player that truly doesn't care would be able to go into this season not wanting to show everything they have. I can't imagine after the last two season's that any player would have the gall to come into camp out of shape. I fully expect dedicated players this year as much as you do. If they aren't and they underachieve again, the garden is going to be torn down by the fans, and deservedly so.

There are no more excuses.

For the record when I go to the courts in my town, because of my dimunitive stature I am often challenged by high school kids to games of one on one. Just the fact that they challenge me makes me angry. I have no second thoughts in beating an invalid 11-0. That anger is innate and tough to learn.

[Edited by - bippity10 on 09-08-2007 2:49 PM]
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arkrud
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8/9/2007  4:38 PM
Posted by misterearl:

arkrud - please pay close attention

On the issue of fans who feel entitled to insult players as stupid or lazy. Let me break it down for you arkrud. The racist chants from FK Zeta supporters is an extension of similar written expressions from so-called Knicks "fans" who feel compelled to label basketball players with insulting tags.

Once you feel empowered to insult someone in public, the next thing you have is a mob that feels its duty to follow suit.

Is that what you think sportsmanship is about?

I am not sure what are talking about.
Definitely not anything related to my post... as usual
You are one of the guys who listen only to yourself and I am not sure why are you posting on the board if you are not accepting any other opinions. You will be better of sending email to yourself and then replay they you cannot agree more
I never mention any player in my post and never mention any race. In fact I have no idea which race they belong to, and I don't care also.














"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy." Hamlet
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