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djsunyc
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8/1/2007  11:25 AM
when proctor got traded, i thought micheal kay was going to jump off the top of yankee stadium.
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jaydh
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8/1/2007  12:23 PM
Posted by islesfan:

No contender, certainly not Cleveland or Seattle, will add a better pitcher than Phil Hughes to their rotation for the stretch run.

gotta love how after pitching only 10.7 innings in the majors, ever, he is touted as the second coming.
Posted by islesfan:

Nobody is saying that the Yankees middle relief if perfect or even good for that matter, but they have enough pitching in the minors to patch their bullpen. If Joba can come in and settle the 7th inning, the Yankees will be in pretty good shape. If Jobe can adjust to relieving for 2 months, there's no reason to believe that he won't be better than what the Yankees have now. He has the same type of stuff that K-Rod and Papelbon have.

if if if.... relying on a rookie? an unknown? even good players don't always perform when they are rookies.
Posted by islesfan:

And don't just discount Vizcaino. He's been pitching lights out for about 2 months now. Let's wait for Torre to completely overuse him, now that Proctor is no longer there to abuse, before we mention him in the same sentence as that gutless puke, Farnsworth.

That's the thing, why go after another bat? Trade for a reliever, keep proctor and give him a rest. I just see this Betemitt trade as a sign of Cashman not necessarily caring whether or not the yanks make the playoffs because they are due for big changes offseason(Rivera a FA, Posada a FA, Arod opt-out, need to revamp the bullpen).
islesfan
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8/1/2007  12:38 PM
Posted by jaydh:
Posted by islesfan:

No contender, certainly not Cleveland or Seattle, will add a better pitcher than Phil Hughes to their rotation for the stretch run.

gotta love how after pitching only 10.7 innings in the majors, ever, he is touted as the second coming.
Posted by islesfan:

Nobody is saying that the Yankees middle relief if perfect or even good for that matter, but they have enough pitching in the minors to patch their bullpen. If Joba can come in and settle the 7th inning, the Yankees will be in pretty good shape. If Jobe can adjust to relieving for 2 months, there's no reason to believe that he won't be better than what the Yankees have now. He has the same type of stuff that K-Rod and Papelbon have.

if if if.... relying on a rookie? an unknown? even good players don't always perform when they are rookies.
Posted by islesfan:

And don't just discount Vizcaino. He's been pitching lights out for about 2 months now. Let's wait for Torre to completely overuse him, now that Proctor is no longer there to abuse, before we mention him in the same sentence as that gutless puke, Farnsworth.

That's the thing, why go after another bat? Trade for a reliever, keep proctor and give him a rest. I just see this Betemitt trade as a sign of Cashman not necessarily caring whether or not the yanks make the playoffs because they are due for big changes offseason(Rivera a FA, Posada a FA, Arod opt-out, need to revamp the bullpen).

I don't know about second coming but there isn't a major league team out there that doesn't project Hughes to be a top of the rotation starter at the ML level. None. And all we need from him is to be our 5th starter and better than Kei Igawa. Do you doubt he can be a good 5th starter?

We're not relying on a rookie. Obviously it's a big IF, but he certainly has the ability. Does he not? Can he be much worse than Farnsworth, Proctor or Bruney have been? If he can handle it physically, don't you think it's worth a shot? Especially since it's just a 2 month deal.

Why not go for another bat? Why should Cashman be so shortsighted to just look to improve this years team? Betemit is under their control for another 3 years. He has ability and if nothing else, he can be a solid utility player at a low cost for 3 years. Proctor is wearing down, thanks to Torre, just like he did last year. I don't think losing Proctor hurts that much for this year. If Cashman wasn't worried about making the playoffs this year, he wouldn't be looking to bring up Joba to help the bullpen.
If it didn’t work in Phoenix with Nash and Stoutamire... it’s just not a winning formula. It’s an entertaining formula, but not a winning one. - Derek Harper talking about D'Antoni's System
jaydh
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8/1/2007  12:45 PM
Posted by islesfan:

I don't know about second coming but there isn't a major league team out there that doesn't project Hughes to be a top of the rotation starter at the ML level. None. And all we need from him is to be our 5th starter and better than Kei Igawa. Do you doubt he can be a good 5th starter?

It's possible but I'll hold judgement until he pitches more than 10 innings.
Posted by islesfan:

We're not relying on a rookie. Obviously it's a big IF, but he certainly has the ability. Does he not? Can he be much worse than Farnsworth, Proctor or Bruney have been? If he can handle it physically, don't you think it's worth a shot?

Chamberlain is not a rookie? Many players have the ability, whether or not they perform is another issue, and hardly any perform right away.
Posted by islesfan:

Why not go for another bat? Why should Cashman be so shortsighted to just look to improve this years team? Betemit is under their control for another 3 years. He has ability and if nothing else, he can be a solid utility player at a low cost for 3 years. Proctor is wearing down, thanks to Torre, just like he did last year. I don't think losing Proctor hurts that much for this year. If Cashman wasn't worried about making the playoffs this year, he wouldn't be looking to bring up Joba to help the bullpen.

I figured he would try to win now since the yankees were making a run rather than rely on unknowns.

islesfan
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8/1/2007  1:07 PM
Posted by jaydh:
Posted by islesfan:

I don't know about second coming but there isn't a major league team out there that doesn't project Hughes to be a top of the rotation starter at the ML level. None. And all we need from him is to be our 5th starter and better than Kei Igawa. Do you doubt he can be a good 5th starter?

It's possible but I'll hold judgement until he pitches more than 10 innings.
Posted by islesfan:

We're not relying on a rookie. Obviously it's a big IF, but he certainly has the ability. Does he not? Can he be much worse than Farnsworth, Proctor or Bruney have been? If he can handle it physically, don't you think it's worth a shot?

Chamberlain is not a rookie? Many players have the ability, whether or not they perform is another issue, and hardly any perform right away.
Posted by islesfan:

Why not go for another bat? Why should Cashman be so shortsighted to just look to improve this years team? Betemit is under their control for another 3 years. He has ability and if nothing else, he can be a solid utility player at a low cost for 3 years. Proctor is wearing down, thanks to Torre, just like he did last year. I don't think losing Proctor hurts that much for this year. If Cashman wasn't worried about making the playoffs this year, he wouldn't be looking to bring up Joba to help the bullpen.

I figured he would try to win now since the yankees were making a run rather than rely on unknowns.

That's fine, I think everybody should reserve judgement but from what I saw in the start where he got injured, he showed lights out dominant stuff, against a very good hitting Texas team. I haven't seen stuff like that from Igawa or anybody else that the Yankees have thrown out there as a 5th starter this year. That gives me hope that he can be a very good option as a 5th starter for the rest of the year, assuming he stays healthy.

I meant to say that they weren't relying on a rookie, not that Chamberlain wasn't a rookie. Sorry if you misinterpreted it. Joba hasn't just shown ability, he's shown dominating ability. If he doesn't perform right away then that's fine, they gave it a shot. He still has tremendous upside and with Hughes, the Yankees have 2 top of the rotation prospects that every team in the majors would be envious of.

Cashman isn't trying NOT to win now but he's also not interested in overpaying for players like Gagne. Ian Kennedy has more value than being included in a trade for a 2 month rental and Melky Cabrera is an almost everyday player that the Yankees are relying on to get them to the playoffs. Besides, who else was available besides Gagne? Al Reyes?

The Mets didn't do anything to help their beleaguered pitching staff, rotation and bullpen, does that mean they aren't trying to win either?

If it didn’t work in Phoenix with Nash and Stoutamire... it’s just not a winning formula. It’s an entertaining formula, but not a winning one. - Derek Harper talking about D'Antoni's System
jaydh
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8/1/2007  1:19 PM
Posted by islesfan:

The Mets didn't do anything to help their beleaguered pitching staff, rotation and bullpen, does that mean they aren't trying to win either?

That's because there isn't anything wrong with the starters, the bullpen is debatable but its not like the mets traded Aaron Heilman or Pedro Feliciano away for an insignificant bat. Not really a good comparison.
islesfan
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8/1/2007  1:25 PM
Posted by jaydh:
Posted by islesfan:

The Mets didn't do anything to help their beleaguered pitching staff, rotation and bullpen, does that mean they aren't trying to win either?

That's because there isn't anything wrong with the starters, the bullpen is debatable but its not like the mets traded Aaron Heilman or Pedro Feliciano away for an insignificant bat. Not really a good comparison.

I wasn't really comparing. Just wondering why you aren't so hard on your Mets for failing to get bullpen help. Didn't the Mets bullpen blow another game last night? Would Gagne have helped in the 8th inning?

Why is Betemit an "insignificant" bat? He's not hitting for average this year (he has in the past) but he has good power as his 10 homers in limited at bats will attest. And he plays in a pitchers park in a pitchers division. He's a switch hitting bat too. Let him take aim at the short porch in right at the Stadium, the Green Monster in Fenway, the bandbox in Baltimore and the little league field in Tampa instead of the cavernous parks in LA, SF and SD.
If it didn’t work in Phoenix with Nash and Stoutamire... it’s just not a winning formula. It’s an entertaining formula, but not a winning one. - Derek Harper talking about D'Antoni's System
jaydh
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8/1/2007  1:32 PM
Posted by islesfan:
Posted by jaydh:
Posted by islesfan:

The Mets didn't do anything to help their beleaguered pitching staff, rotation and bullpen, does that mean they aren't trying to win either?

That's because there isn't anything wrong with the starters, the bullpen is debatable but its not like the mets traded Aaron Heilman or Pedro Feliciano away for an insignificant bat. Not really a good comparison.

I wasn't really comparing. Just wondering why you aren't so hard on your Mets for failing to get bullpen help. Didn't the Mets bullpen blow another game last night? Would Gagne have helped in the 8th inning?

Because unlike the Yankees, the Mets have good bullpen arms who are just off right now. Plus there is always Smith and Burgos who can be called upon.
Posted by islesfan:

Why is Betemit an "insignificant" bat? He's not hitting for average this year (he has in the past) but he has good power as his 10 homers in limited at bats will attest. And he plays in a pitchers park in a pitchers division. He's a switch hitting bat too. Let him take aim at the short porch in right at the Stadium, the Green Monster in Fenway, the bandbox in Baltimore and the little league field in Tampa instead of the cavernous parks in LA, SF and SD.

He's insignificant in the way that it won't be his bat that determines whether the yanks make or don't make the playoffs.
VDesai
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8/1/2007  1:36 PM
Yanks have loads of options in middle relief that could outperform what Proctor has given them this year. Chamberlain can be lights out of the pen. Vizcaino has been fine. Chris Britton put up similar numbers to Proctor when he pitched for Baltimore last year but inexplicably hasn't gotten a real chance with the Yanks. When he was up earlier he pitched really well. Edwar Ramirez will probably get another chance and he was beyond dominant in AAA...an ERA under 1 and striking out almost 2 batters an inning with hardly any walks.
jaydh
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8/1/2007  1:39 PM
If the Yanks have loads of options in MR, then what are they waiting for? They have had one of the worst bullpens all year, why wait so long to bring these lights-out studs up?
Solace
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8/1/2007  1:40 PM
VDesai, even if all you say is true, we basically gave up Proctor for less than his value... and really for no reason. Proctor as the setup man... no, I think we've could've done better. But there's no reason why Proctor couldn't be a solid piece of the bullpen. Proctor actually was talented, and his ERA is solid or above-average for a reliever. It's below-average for a setup up man, but who cares... he could've been used in multiple roles.

Here's a thought, why is it we traded Proctor, but kept Farnsworth? Does that make any sense?

Bottom line is, right now, it looks like a terrible move.

[Edited by - Solace on Aug 01 2007 1:41 PM]
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islesfan
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8/1/2007  1:46 PM
Posted by jaydh:
Posted by islesfan:
Posted by jaydh:
Posted by islesfan:

The Mets didn't do anything to help their beleaguered pitching staff, rotation and bullpen, does that mean they aren't trying to win either?

That's because there isn't anything wrong with the starters, the bullpen is debatable but its not like the mets traded Aaron Heilman or Pedro Feliciano away for an insignificant bat. Not really a good comparison.

I wasn't really comparing. Just wondering why you aren't so hard on your Mets for failing to get bullpen help. Didn't the Mets bullpen blow another game last night? Would Gagne have helped in the 8th inning?

Because unlike the Yankees, the Mets have good bullpen arms who are just off right now. Plus there is always Smith and Burgos who can be called upon.
Posted by islesfan:

Why is Betemit an "insignificant" bat? He's not hitting for average this year (he has in the past) but he has good power as his 10 homers in limited at bats will attest. And he plays in a pitchers park in a pitchers division. He's a switch hitting bat too. Let him take aim at the short porch in right at the Stadium, the Green Monster in Fenway, the bandbox in Baltimore and the little league field in Tampa instead of the cavernous parks in LA, SF and SD.

He's insignificant in the way that it won't be his bat that determines whether the yanks make or don't make the playoffs.

The Yankees can say that they have good bullpen arms too. And they have good arms in the minors to call up.

You expected a bat that determines whether the Yanks make or don't make the playoffs for Scott Proctor? What bat like that was available? And who did the Yanks have to give up for a bat that good? ARod? Jeter? Both?
If it didn’t work in Phoenix with Nash and Stoutamire... it’s just not a winning formula. It’s an entertaining formula, but not a winning one. - Derek Harper talking about D'Antoni's System
VDesai
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8/1/2007  1:52 PM
Posted by Solace:

VDesai, even if all you say is true, we basically gave up Proctor for less than his value... and really for no reason. Proctor as the setup man... no, I think we've could've done better. But there's no reason why Proctor couldn't be a solid piece of the bullpen. Proctor actually was talented, and his ERA is solid or above-average for a reliever. It's below-average for a setup up man, but who cares... he could've been used in multiple roles.

Here's a thought, why is it we traded Proctor, but kept Farnsworth? Does that make any sense?

Bottom line is, right now, it looks like a terrible move.

[Edited by - Solace on Aug 01 2007 1:41 PM]


Bottom line is, Wilson Betemit is a better player than Proctor.

If you want an answer to the Farnsworth question try taking a look at his contract.
VDesai
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8/1/2007  1:53 PM
Posted by jaydh:

If the Yanks have loads of options in MR, then what are they waiting for? They have had one of the worst bullpens all year, why wait so long to bring these lights-out studs up?


Answer: Joe Torre
jaydh
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8/1/2007  1:53 PM
Posted by islesfan:
The Yankees can say that they have good bullpen arms too. And they have good arms in the minors to call up.

Sure, they can say it, but in their case it isn't true. Yanks don't have a reliever as good as heilman or feliciano. The yanks arms in the minors are unproven, while burgos and smith have both pitched successfully at the ML level for more than a short stint.
Posted by islesfan:

You expected a bat that determines whether the Yanks make or don't make the playoffs for Scott Proctor? What bat like that was available? And who did the Yanks have to give up for a bat that good? ARod? Jeter? Both?

Again, then what was the point of trading Proctor? Why weaken the weakest part of your team for something that isn't needed?
Solace
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8/1/2007  2:02 PM
Posted by VDesai:

Bottom line is, Wilson Betemit is a better player than Proctor.

If you want an answer to the Farnsworth question try taking a look at his contract.

Wilson Betemit is a better player? Based on what? His .231 average? His .241 average the year before?

As for Farnsworth, we could eat some dollars in a trade. We've done it in the past.
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VDesai
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8/1/2007  2:03 PM
Posted by Solace:
Posted by VDesai:

Bottom line is, Wilson Betemit is a better player than Proctor.

If you want an answer to the Farnsworth question try taking a look at his contract.

Wilson Betemit is a better player? Based on what? His .231 average? His .241 average the year before?

As for Farnsworth, we could eat some dollars in a trade. We've done it in the past.


You need to read up on OPS
VDesai
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8/1/2007  2:04 PM
Key sentence from the Times on the Procto deal:

August 1, 2007
Yankees Keep the Farm as Deadline Passes
By TYLER KEPNER

On July 8, the day before the All-Star Game break, the Yankees led the Angels by 10 runs when Scott Proctor was brought in to pitch the eighth inning. To the Yankees’ decision-makers, this was an obvious sign that Manager Joe Torre would probably always favor Proctor over a pitcher just up from the minors, no matter how promising that pitcher seemed.
VDesai
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8/1/2007  2:05 PM
More compelling arguments on the producitivy and upside of Betemit:

http://bronxbanter.baseballtoaster.com/archives/747175.html
Solace
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8/1/2007  2:05 PM
Posted by VDesai:

You need to read up on OPS

V, I like you, but you're being a real ASSH4LE today. Stop implying that I don't know what I'm talking about because I don't agree with you. He gets a good amount of walks and has some power. Congratulations.

His batting average sucks ass and he strikes out a TON.

[Edited by - Solace on Aug 01 2007 2:05 PM]
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