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You Guys Do Realize Realistically We Need to Blow This Up?
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Solace
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7/24/2007  5:11 PM
There's two pieces that I want to address here.
Posted by nixluva:

Tho I know he's being mentioned mostly as an example, LeBron is a reach and even Isiah knows that. It would've taken more than available cash to get him away from Cleve. The same would go for Wade. I think your concept is a fine if your talking the best case scenario but there's less to your approach if you fail to get that LeBron type, which is highly likely not to happen. That's been the case for many teams looking to do what you suggest. They never end up getting that stud when they have the cap space. There really haven't been a lot of elite players to leave their own teams like that. Most Stay with their own teams. The only way guys end up leaving is when their current team no longer wants them and refuses to pay.

The problem with this statement is look at the teams who are actually under the cap most years. They're either under the cap because the owner is being a cheapskate (ala LA Clippers) or they're a completely undesirable place to play. When was the last time a real major market like NY made a play? I would contend that it doesn't happen often in major markets, so we don't have enough statistics. However, players indicate that they want to play here -- let's put it to the test. The other part of this is that if we missed on LeBron, there was still Wade, Carmelo and Bosh that offseason and then there may have been Dwight Howard, Emaka Okafor the next year. A lot of these guys would be major players if NY was under the cap. Who knows, if we could've have under $20 million guaranteed, maybe we could've managed to get two of those guys. What if we put out a lineup of Okafor, Lee, Balkman, LeBron and Collins? NBA title perhaps?
Posted by nixluva:

I mentioned Dolan's plan not to say that he had this detailed plan for fixing the team, but in that he didn't want a rebuild. He wanted to try and retool and make the playoffs. He still had H2O on the books for HUGE dollars and there's no way he was gonna go into the tank as long as he had a chance to put a playoff team on the floor. As GM, Isiah couldn't just ignore Dolan's wishes. I find it interesting that as soon as Isiah had leverage to go younger he did. That came at the trade deadline of the next season. Ever since then he's been for the most part doing what you suggest, using Exp contracts and getting picks, along with trades where he took back salary for picks. It's not the cutting salary method but he's still managed to add some very good talent to this team.

The problem with this is that we lost anyway and didn't make great attempts to put winning teams on the floor, so ... in effect, a rebuild wouldn't have produced much worse results... but would've gotten us some high picks to play with and possibly a young stud or two.
Posted by nixluva:

What you propose is a method that many try to use, but to varying levels of success. It's far from a tried and true method that works most of the time. It only seems that way to those who only pay attention to the few that work. Given the price of tickets for Knick games and the expectations of the fanbase, Dolan is careful to make sure he has some marquee names to keep fans coming. That's a dynamic that many teams don't really have to deal with.

I think it's mostly underutilized, to be honest. Most years, there's 0-3 teams under the cap.
Posted by nixluva:

From what I can see the time it's taken for Isiah to retool this team isn't very long. It was widely accepted that it would take years for him to fix the mess he inherited, but fans in NY don't want to sit thru even a partial rebuild, so what makes you think they'd put up with the long term losing of a complete rebuild? Many times those things take 7 yrs or so to manifest any real success.

First, the clock is still ticking until we start winning again. We've had long term losing already, and frankly I think we could've gone from where we were to contenders in 4 or 5 years. Where we were to playoffs in 4 or 5 years is where we're headed. On the one hand, congratulations. On the other hand, we stopped for a $20 bill on our way to the pot of the gold at the end of the rainbow, but I guess some people are happy with the $20, since they can invest it and they have a shot at a $20 turning into a million if they invest wisely and get very lucky. Ok.
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nixluva
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7/24/2007  5:36 PM
My problem Solace is that there's just as much "maybe" in your plan as there is in any other plan. With Isiah he's been able to at least put this thing together rather quickly after that initial Dolan influenced 1.5 yr run with KT & H2O still being in the middle of the mix.

In terms of getting back to winning. Last year was IMO the start of the climb from the bottom. This isn't last years team. This year I expect a winning season. You can't really put too much of a damper on what Isiah has done with this roster at this point. I think he's clearly put this team into the mix in the East. Cleve has LeBron and they have a lot of work to do in finding a way to improve that team with few options. I don't feel like we're that far away from the Bulls or the Cavs. If that's the case is there really any team in the East we can't beat out in the playoffs?
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7/24/2007  7:18 PM
Posted by Solace:

What's silly is you read my post looking for guarantees. I make none. It's about having as many opportunities as possible to get the best team. Almost all winning teams are centered around a HoF franchise player.

Ways of getting a franchise player:
1) NBA draft - most likely (we traded our lottery picks).
2) Signing - decent chance in a high market (we never made an attempt to get under the cap, so we don't know).
3) Trades - least likely, and you have to take a flawed or really unhappy player to make it happen.

If we follow my plan, we have three ways to get a franchise player. If we follow Isiah's plan, we have one. Simple math. Sorry you can't understand.

What's not to understand. I've understood you, I just haven't totally agreed with you. Since Isiah's been here we've only missed out on Oden and Durant. To me they're the only guys that fit your HOF Franchise types and even that isn't a lock.

in 2004 we had the #16 pick and no chance to get D. Howard. The best we probably could do was Josh Smith.

In 2005 we had the #8 Pick and even if we tanked it, got lucky and got #1, there was no Oden, Durant, LeBron, DWade or Melo in that draft. Nice PG's tho. Still we ended up with 3 nice players in the draft. Lee is better than most of the guys in that draft, go and look at that board.

In 2006 we saw some nice players, but let's not get carried away. Still no clear superstars that I can see. We filled some more needs with solid picks.

So we could've lost like we did or worse during the last 3 years and still not end up with a team that was good enough to get us to the promised land. We likely would've had some good young players, but no depth. When I compare that to what we've got now doing it this way. This team looks stronger to me. The best example of a team doing damage in the draft is Portland and they got a big break to be able to do that, which means other teams looking to do the same thing missed out and will likely continue to lose big. Chi has done a good job in the draft, but I don't see that Franchise stud a team is supposed to need. They're more like Det.

In terms of us having cap space to get one of the stud FA's during that time, I find it unlikely they would be willing to come to a team that was depeleted of any real depth and was losing big at that. What Isiah's doing is setting this team up for down the line. We should be a good playoff team the next few years and that would be more attractive to any player looking to move and we'd have talent to trade. BUT if none of those players wants to move then we still have a good team to work with.
Posted by Solace:

We should be better than last year, but even isn't guaranteed. I think any less than 43 wins next season is an outright failure and Isiah should be fired. That being said, you talk about improvement, I talk about championships. I guess we're just not talking on the same level. Is there any team in the east we can't beat out in the playoffs? Um, yes! I mean look anything can happen in the NBA, especially with crooked refs, but give me a break. Our odds aren't very good if we're facing Detroit, Chicago or Cleveland. The talk of "we're not that far behind those teams" is hogwash until proven otherwise.
I agree that we need to have a winning record and make the playoffs this year or it's a failure. I disagree that we can't give teams like Det, Chi or Cleve all they can handle and possibly win a series against one of those teams. If you're basing it off of last year then of course not, but this isn't going to be the exact same team. I expect that this Knicks team will be more potent and competitive than last years team. I think guys are maturing at the right time and that they'll be more prepared to go further than last years team ever could have. I also think we may have a roster makeup that is better suited to the playoffs and less so the regular season. We just need to make sure to get in.
Solace
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7/24/2007  7:33 PM
^ Ok, so it sounds like we're closer than we believe, just a difference in methodology, I guess. Frankly, I'm disappointed in the path that Isiah has taken, because I think he came in with a great opportunity to do something that many NY GMs never would've tried. Unfortunately, he passed on that, then specifically told us he was going for that and then passed on that again. That being said, I'll agree that we have a good chance to be competitive and I expect that. I think beating a Detroit, Cleveland or Chicago in our first playoff run is shooting high. I think we could give those teams a series and maybe lose in 6, though.

What I will say is that considering the path that Isiah has taken, the Knicks better be a playoff team this year and like I said, 43 wins should be a bare minimum. I think anything less than a playoff birth and an above .500 record will be a complete embarassment.

[Edited by - Solace on Jul 24 2007 7:34 PM]
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babyKnicks
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7/24/2007  9:18 PM
how fast did you think isiah would get us a championship when he was hired?
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islesfan
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7/24/2007  9:36 PM
Posted by babyKnicks:

how fast did you think isiah would get us a championship when he was hired?

Championship? How about just getting them to be a .500 team?

Couldn't even do that in a pathetically weak conference.
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WOODMANnYk
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7/24/2007  9:44 PM
Posted by Vmart:
Posted by djsunyc:
Posted by Vmart:
Posted by WOODMANnYk:

Yep, the key to winning a championship is to get that special player in the draft, in the Lottery!

As you can see, the last player we had that was special was Patrick Ewing.(franchise star)and you can see how we were dominate during most of the Ewing era. Only thing is the team did not get that championship.

Right now, this knicks team will not go anywhere. TrusT me!!! Alot of knicks fans have hope but for what? This Knicks team don't even have that special player(superstar)on this team

ASsiah continues to give away his #1 pick, trade for players who don't know anything about winning and blow up the payroll. Thats not the route to go if you're looking to compete for a championship some day.

[Edited by - woodmannyk on 23-07-2007 7:17 PM]


Yeah lottery is the way to go, but the Knicks always approched the lottery half azzed. They had a shot at Yao, LeBron, Melo, Wade, Bosh but they chose to play for a playoff push I remember calling on the boards for a tank and everyone was all pious and we should play for the playoffs. And they got screwed with a Nene and a draft day trade for a gimmpy player in Dice, and Sweetney a bust so far in his career. And Patrick Ewing wasn't the last lottery pick the Knicks had it was Kenny Walker after Patrick and he turned out to be stud for the Knicks. You know Isiah has added Curry, Zach and Crawford they are lottery picks of other teams thats all. But no one wants to acknowledge them as lottery picks here because the Knicks didn't pick them.

one thing about the knicks lottery picks: marbury, curry, zach and crawford - if they were the caliber of players we are talking about, their perspective teams would not have traded them away. that's why they're on this team, b/c none of them are that "special" player you get in the draft...at least they aren't "special" so far.

[Edited by - djsunyc on 07-23-2007 8:14 PM]

Thats where you are wrong. Curry is a special player but he is a Knick player so you will never appreciate him, Zach is a special player because he had the Blazers humming in the playoffs but that team was always full of head cases. But I think you will see that Zach is a difference maker, but will you appreciate it when he does special things, or will you call for a trade because his value is high. People here tend to approch the grass is greener else where to much here. Do you know how the Lakers aquired their special players to get to the recent Championships or Detroit, Lakers did it with trades, thats right Kobe was a draft day trade, Shaq was a free agent. Detroit just one of their player was their draft pick that was Prince the rest came in trade or other form.

First off, Lakers were under the cap, thanks to their great GM who won like 8 championships. He traded Vlade Divac for a young HS player named Kobe. To fill in the pieces, they signed SHAQ. What does Isiah do, trade his #1 picks for a lazy Curry who can't even rebound the damn ball and continue to have one of the highest payroll in b-ball.

Don't forget the owner is an idiot!

As for Detroit, they drafted a young stud in Tayshaun prince and actally made trades and signed a couple of players in order to win but they had a great coach that fittted that style of play (larry Brown).

Look at the last teams to appear in the NBA Finals since 2000. SA(duncan) Miami(Wade) Cleve(Lebron) Dallas(nowitski) LA(kobe) Detriot(tayshaun) philly(Iverson) Indiana(reggie m.) NJ(martin or Jefferson)

They 're franchise players! Something the Knicks do not have since PATRICK who came from the draft!

All were drafted in the 1 round and had an impact on the team headed to the Finals. Looks like the formula to winning is drafting a nice player(special player) in the draft and acquiring another via a trade or free agent signing.

Some players signed or traded to the team that went to the NBA finals. Shaq, Kidd,Rasheed W, Mutombo(defensive player of the yr that time).

What do the Knicks do,get Curry and Zach and you call them special? You're not special if you've been in the league for 5 yrs or longer and can't even play defense or make the playoffs. Those 2 are not even compared to, the last special player on the knicks, Patrick Ewing!
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Vmart
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7/24/2007  10:13 PM
Posted by WOODMANnYk:
Posted by Vmart:
Posted by djsunyc:
Posted by Vmart:
Posted by WOODMANnYk:

Yep, the key to winning a championship is to get that special player in the draft, in the Lottery!

As you can see, the last player we had that was special was Patrick Ewing.(franchise star)and you can see how we were dominate during most of the Ewing era. Only thing is the team did not get that championship.

Right now, this knicks team will not go anywhere. TrusT me!!! Alot of knicks fans have hope but for what? This Knicks team don't even have that special player(superstar)on this team

ASsiah continues to give away his #1 pick, trade for players who don't know anything about winning and blow up the payroll. Thats not the route to go if you're looking to compete for a championship some day.

[Edited by - woodmannyk on 23-07-2007 7:17 PM]


Yeah lottery is the way to go, but the Knicks always approched the lottery half azzed. They had a shot at Yao, LeBron, Melo, Wade, Bosh but they chose to play for a playoff push I remember calling on the boards for a tank and everyone was all pious and we should play for the playoffs. And they got screwed with a Nene and a draft day trade for a gimmpy player in Dice, and Sweetney a bust so far in his career. And Patrick Ewing wasn't the last lottery pick the Knicks had it was Kenny Walker after Patrick and he turned out to be stud for the Knicks. You know Isiah has added Curry, Zach and Crawford they are lottery picks of other teams thats all. But no one wants to acknowledge them as lottery picks here because the Knicks didn't pick them.

one thing about the knicks lottery picks: marbury, curry, zach and crawford - if they were the caliber of players we are talking about, their perspective teams would not have traded them away. that's why they're on this team, b/c none of them are that "special" player you get in the draft...at least they aren't "special" so far.

[Edited by - djsunyc on 07-23-2007 8:14 PM]

Thats where you are wrong. Curry is a special player but he is a Knick player so you will never appreciate him, Zach is a special player because he had the Blazers humming in the playoffs but that team was always full of head cases. But I think you will see that Zach is a difference maker, but will you appreciate it when he does special things, or will you call for a trade because his value is high. People here tend to approch the grass is greener else where to much here. Do you know how the Lakers aquired their special players to get to the recent Championships or Detroit, Lakers did it with trades, thats right Kobe was a draft day trade, Shaq was a free agent. Detroit just one of their player was their draft pick that was Prince the rest came in trade or other form.

First off, Lakers were under the cap, thanks to their great GM who won like 8 championships. He traded Vlade Divac for a young HS player named Kobe. To fill in the pieces, they signed SHAQ. What does Isiah do, trade his #1 picks for a lazy Curry who can't even rebound the damn ball and continue to have one of the highest payroll in b-ball.

Don't forget the owner is an idiot!

As for Detroit, they drafted a young stud in Tayshaun prince and actally made trades and signed a couple of players in order to win but they had a great coach that fittted that style of play (larry Brown).

Look at the last teams to appear in the NBA Finals since 2000. SA(duncan) Miami(Wade) Cleve(Lebron) Dallas(nowitski) LA(kobe) Detriot(tayshaun) philly(Iverson) Indiana(reggie m.) NJ(martin or Jefferson)

They 're franchise players! Something the Knicks do not have since PATRICK who came from the draft!

All were drafted in the 1 round and had an impact on the team headed to the Finals. Looks like the formula to winning is drafting a nice player(special player) in the draft and acquiring another via a trade or free agent signing.

Some players signed or traded to the team that went to the NBA finals. Shaq, Kidd,Rasheed W, Mutombo(defensive player of the yr that time).

What do the Knicks do,get Curry and Zach and you call them special? You're not special if you've been in the league for 5 yrs or longer and can't even play defense or make the playoffs. Those 2 are not even compared to, the last special player on the knicks, Patrick Ewing!


Those are special players but like I said the past losing has made everything other teams do look golden to you but when reality is that they have made mistake too. Curry and Zach are special players that is why they were high draft picks. Only special players get that honor. As for Pat Ewing being the superstar no doubt about it that was one special player but that special player struggled in the begining and lost a lot of games he had to do his time before he got it going and continuously went to the playoffs. So I don't see how you guys are writing Curry off so quickly and Zach they haven't played a game together and everyone here seems to have all the answers. Zach made the playoffs with the Blazers and the Blazers decided to rebuild after Wallace, Sabonis and Stoudimire left leaving Zach with subpar talent on the team and young talent that needs time in the league. Isiah is making solid moves sure he traded some picks away but you know and I know the picks he gave Noah and Ty aren't superstar material or should I say special player.

Detroit made some good moves yes they did landing Wallace put them over the top. but those were trades and isn't Isiah making trades, he is and he is trying. He has made good moves Curry is a good move, Zach is a good move and he did try and get a great coach in LB but LB had other agendas that is why he hasn't gotten a job because teams aren't ready to trust LB. The great LB stunted the growth of the Knicks players and that is something that needs to considered with our young players. As for our young player who is to say that Balkman isn't a specail player, Lee a special player, Chandler just might be that special player. You wanted special players from the draft well Isiah just might given you three right there. You guys are to quick to judge everything Knicks in a to much a negative way. We have special players on the knicks but give them some time to be special instead of writing them off.
nixluva
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7/24/2007  10:54 PM
Posted by babyKnicks:

how fast did you think isiah would get us a championship when he was hired?

It's funny how fast NY fans lose patience, cuz when he got here EVERYONE said it would take years to fix the mess he inherited. Then with every trade and every season all we got from that very same media was how Isiah can't get anything done. If he backed up the truck we'd be losing big for a few years too, so what's the difference. He still found a way to remake this team with young players and we started to get better under his coaching. I think people are gonna have to start changing their tune about Isiah. They're gonna have to start taking back some of those insults. Saying he was clueless and didn't know how to build a team.

I think he's done a very good job of stacking this team with good young talent, but we have to allow these players to develop. Lee and Nate will be in only their 3rd season, Balk & Mardy 2nd and Chandler, Nichols & Morris are rooks. Can we show just a little patience to let these guys start to blossom?

How about Curry finally starting to realize how good he can be if he puts in the effort? Zach is already a stud and he's got some things he can improve on. I like Isiah's rapport with the players and I think he can get thru to these guys. I'm still shocked that he got Steph to play so well on D. I'd like to give him more time to see if he can have that success with others on the team not known for D.
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7/24/2007  11:04 PM
Posted by nixluva:
Posted by babyKnicks:

how fast did you think isiah would get us a championship when he was hired?

It's funny how fast NY fans lose patience, cuz when he got here EVERYONE said it would take years to fix the mess he inherited. Then with every trade and every season all we got from that very same media was how Isiah can't get anything done. If he backed up the truck we'd be losing big for a few years too, so what's the difference. He still found a way to remake this team with young players and we started to get better under his coaching. I think people are gonna have to start changing their tune about Isiah. They're gonna have to start taking back some of those insults. Saying he was clueless and didn't know how to build a team.

I think he's done a very good job of stacking this team with good young talent, but we have to allow these players to develop. Lee and Nate will be in only their 3rd season, Balk & Mardy 2nd and Chandler, Nichols & Morris are rooks. Can we show just a little patience to let these guys start to blossom?

How about Curry finally starting to realize how good he can be if he puts in the effort? Zach is already a stud and he's got some things he can improve on. I like Isiah's rapport with the players and I think he can get thru to these guys. I'm still shocked that he got Steph to play so well on D. I'd like to give him more time to see if he can have that success with others on the team not known for D.

isiah said we should challenge for the atlantic before the 04/05 season (when we finished with 33 wins).
isiah didn't utter the "rebuild" word until far into the lb season.

these are his own words. it's not losing of patience, it's reaction to what isiah has told us.
nixluva
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7/24/2007  11:29 PM
Posted by djsunyc:
Posted by nixluva:
Posted by babyKnicks:

how fast did you think isiah would get us a championship when he was hired?

It's funny how fast NY fans lose patience, cuz when he got here EVERYONE said it would take years to fix the mess he inherited. Then with every trade and every season all we got from that very same media was how Isiah can't get anything done. If he backed up the truck we'd be losing big for a few years too, so what's the difference. He still found a way to remake this team with young players and we started to get better under his coaching. I think people are gonna have to start changing their tune about Isiah. They're gonna have to start taking back some of those insults. Saying he was clueless and didn't know how to build a team.

I think he's done a very good job of stacking this team with good young talent, but we have to allow these players to develop. Lee and Nate will be in only their 3rd season, Balk & Mardy 2nd and Chandler, Nichols & Morris are rooks. Can we show just a little patience to let these guys start to blossom?

How about Curry finally starting to realize how good he can be if he puts in the effort? Zach is already a stud and he's got some things he can improve on. I like Isiah's rapport with the players and I think he can get thru to these guys. I'm still shocked that he got Steph to play so well on D. I'd like to give him more time to see if he can have that success with others on the team not known for D.

isiah said we should challenge for the atlantic before the 04/05 season (when we finished with 33 wins).
isiah didn't utter the "rebuild" word until far into the lb season.

these are his own words. it's not losing of patience, it's reaction to what isiah has told us.

Did he have to say it? You didn't perceive what was going on when he traded Nazr? When we made the Draft day trade and then the Curry deal? I think it's been one of the clearest things he did.

It doesn't bother me that he had high hopes for the team at the start of the year. What i'm glad about is that he quickly moved to correct the situation when it was clear that the team wasn't going to amount to anything even if everything went perfectly. What i'm surprised with is that we started off believing that the team was in such a shambles that it was going to take a good while to fix the team, then Isiah did what most Media thought he wouldn't be able to do. He was actually able to make deals to get rid of guys they thought were untradable. As soon as he does this tho, then the media changed it's stance that it would take years for Isiah to fix the team and then proceeded to slam him for every move and failure as if he had a perfect situation to work with. WHY couldn't he fix this team? Why couldn't he get them to the playoffs? What's the problem? Just a year before they said it was a near impossible task, but now they were making it out that he was a lost loser that had not idea what he was doing. Fans have echoed this media bashing and have forgotten just how bad things were when he got here.

I think he's done a good job with the roster, but that he's had some bad breaks, to go along with some mistakes. In the end tho, I think he'll have the last laugh. I think this team will finally start to play like a good team. More consistency would be nice.
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7/24/2007  11:44 PM
Posted by Vmart:
Posted by WOODMANnYk:
Posted by Vmart:
Posted by djsunyc:
Posted by Vmart:
Posted by WOODMANnYk:

Yep, the key to winning a championship is to get that special player in the draft, in the Lottery!

As you can see, the last player we had that was special was Patrick Ewing.(franchise star)and you can see how we were dominate during most of the Ewing era. Only thing is the team did not get that championship.

Right now, this knicks team will not go anywhere. TrusT me!!! Alot of knicks fans have hope but for what? This Knicks team don't even have that special player(superstar)on this team

ASsiah continues to give away his #1 pick, trade for players who don't know anything about winning and blow up the payroll. Thats not the route to go if you're looking to compete for a championship some day.

[Edited by - woodmannyk on 23-07-2007 7:17 PM]


Yeah lottery is the way to go, but the Knicks always approched the lottery half azzed. They had a shot at Yao, LeBron, Melo, Wade, Bosh but they chose to play for a playoff push I remember calling on the boards for a tank and everyone was all pious and we should play for the playoffs. And they got screwed with a Nene and a draft day trade for a gimmpy player in Dice, and Sweetney a bust so far in his career. And Patrick Ewing wasn't the last lottery pick the Knicks had it was Kenny Walker after Patrick and he turned out to be stud for the Knicks. You know Isiah has added Curry, Zach and Crawford they are lottery picks of other teams thats all. But no one wants to acknowledge them as lottery picks here because the Knicks didn't pick them.

one thing about the knicks lottery picks: marbury, curry, zach and crawford - if they were the caliber of players we are talking about, their perspective teams would not have traded them away. that's why they're on this team, b/c none of them are that "special" player you get in the draft...at least they aren't "special" so far.

[Edited by - djsunyc on 07-23-2007 8:14 PM]

Thats where you are wrong. Curry is a special player but he is a Knick player so you will never appreciate him, Zach is a special player because he had the Blazers humming in the playoffs but that team was always full of head cases. But I think you will see that Zach is a difference maker, but will you appreciate it when he does special things, or will you call for a trade because his value is high. People here tend to approch the grass is greener else where to much here. Do you know how the Lakers aquired their special players to get to the recent Championships or Detroit, Lakers did it with trades, thats right Kobe was a draft day trade, Shaq was a free agent. Detroit just one of their player was their draft pick that was Prince the rest came in trade or other form.

First off, Lakers were under the cap, thanks to their great GM who won like 8 championships. He traded Vlade Divac for a young HS player named Kobe. To fill in the pieces, they signed SHAQ. What does Isiah do, trade his #1 picks for a lazy Curry who can't even rebound the damn ball and continue to have one of the highest payroll in b-ball.

Don't forget the owner is an idiot!

As for Detroit, they drafted a young stud in Tayshaun prince and actally made trades and signed a couple of players in order to win but they had a great coach that fittted that style of play (larry Brown).

Look at the last teams to appear in the NBA Finals since 2000. SA(duncan) Miami(Wade) Cleve(Lebron) Dallas(nowitski) LA(kobe) Detriot(tayshaun) philly(Iverson) Indiana(reggie m.) NJ(martin or Jefferson)

They 're franchise players! Something the Knicks do not have since PATRICK who came from the draft!

All were drafted in the 1 round and had an impact on the team headed to the Finals. Looks like the formula to winning is drafting a nice player(special player) in the draft and acquiring another via a trade or free agent signing.

Some players signed or traded to the team that went to the NBA finals. Shaq, Kidd,Rasheed W, Mutombo(defensive player of the yr that time).

What do the Knicks do,get Curry and Zach and you call them special? You're not special if you've been in the league for 5 yrs or longer and can't even play defense or make the playoffs. Those 2 are not even compared to, the last special player on the knicks, Patrick Ewing!


Those are special players but like I said the past losing has made everything other teams do look golden to you but when reality is that they have made mistake too. Curry and Zach are special players that is why they were high draft picks. Only special players get that honor. As for Pat Ewing being the superstar no doubt about it that was one special player but that special player struggled in the begining and lost a lot of games he had to do his time before he got it going and continuously went to the playoffs. So I don't see how you guys are writing Curry off so quickly and Zach they haven't played a game together and everyone here seems to have all the answers. Zach made the playoffs with the Blazers and the Blazers decided to rebuild after Wallace, Sabonis and Stoudimire left leaving Zach with subpar talent on the team and young talent that needs time in the league. Isiah is making solid moves sure he traded some picks away but you know and I know the picks he gave Noah and Ty aren't superstar material or should I say special player.

Detroit made some good moves yes they did landing Wallace put them over the top. but those were trades and isn't Isiah making trades, he is and he is trying. He has made good moves Curry is a good move, Zach is a good move and he did try and get a great coach in LB but LB had other agendas that is why he hasn't gotten a job because teams aren't ready to trust LB. The great LB stunted the growth of the Knicks players and that is something that needs to considered with our young players. As for our young player who is to say that Balkman isn't a specail player, Lee a special player, Chandler just might be that special player. You wanted special players from the draft well Isiah just might given you three right there. You guys are to quick to judge everything Knicks in a to much a negative way. We have special players on the knicks but give them some time to be special instead of writing them off.

Vmart, Like i was saying before, Detriot was able to win cause Dumars was able to build a savvy veteran team whose identity was defense and team play. HE selected players that had the hunger to win and determination to go very far: Wallace, Wallace Billups, Tayshaun, Hamilton and a decent bench but to get them over the hump, they needed that coach and they got him in Larry Brown. What has saunders done since larry left, didley squat!

Assiah is a bum cause the whole team he assembled can't play defense even if their lives depend on it. Another blunder on Assiah part was picking Larry who was not the right choice for this knicks team to coach. This team did not know how to defend and they were mostly a young squad. If you look at Larry's past, he's coached Indiana, Philly, SA, Detriot and took them to the playoffs. All veteran teams! LArry is not too fond of a predominate young core.

Most of these players i had mentioned that has already taken their team to the finals are future HOF.

When we said special player, we're referring to a young stud, franchise player, Superstar. someone you can see, plays both ends of the floor within a few yrs, difference maker, a player who makes players around him 5x better, takes his team to the next level, a true leader.

Sorry to say but no one on the knicks team has that type of ability
The Future. GO KNICKS!
TheGame
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7/25/2007  4:42 AM
Posted by Solace:
Posted by nixluva:

My problem Solace is that there's just as much "maybe" in your plan as there is in any other plan. With Isiah he's been able to at least put this thing together rather quickly after that initial Dolan influenced 1.5 yr run with KT & H2O still being in the middle of the mix.

What's silly is you read my post looking for guarantees. I make none. It's about having as many opportunities as possible to get the best team. Almost all winning teams are centered around a HoF franchise player.

Ways of getting a franchise player:
1) NBA draft - most likely (we traded our lottery picks).
2) Signing - decent chance in a high market (we never made an attempt to get under the cap, so we don't know).
3) Trades - least likely, and you have to take a flawed or really unhappy player to make it happen.

If we follow my plan, we have three ways to get a franchise player. If we follow Isiah's plan, we have one. Simple math. Sorry you can't understand.
Posted by nixluva:[br
In terms of getting back to winning. Last year was IMO the start of the climb from the bottom. This isn't last years team. This year I expect a winning season. You can't really put too much of a damper on what Isiah has done with this roster at this point. I think he's clearly put this team into the mix in the East. Cleve has LeBron and they have a lot of work to do in finding a way to improve that team with few options. I don't feel like we're that far away from the Bulls or the Cavs. If that's the case is there really any team in the East we can't beat out in the playoffs?

We should be better than last year, but even isn't guaranteed. I think any less than 43 wins next season is an outright failure and Isiah should be fired. That being said, you talk about improvement, I talk about championships. I guess we're just not talking on the same level. Is there any team in the east we can't beat out in the playoffs? Um, yes! I mean look anything can happen in the NBA, especially with crooked refs, but give me a break. Our odds aren't very good if we're facing Detroit, Chicago or Cleveland. The talk of "we're not that far behind those teams" is hogwash until proven otherwise.

Solace, let me chime in. I don't agree that using a strategy of trading is the least likely way to get a superstar. If a superstar is an unrestricted free agent, he has some leverage because his current team does not want to lose him for nothing. THe problem is having a group of players that the other team actually wants. IT has compiled a group of young talented players. Lee, Curry, Zach, Nate, Chandler, Balkman, Nichols, and Collins all have shown or are likely to show that they are solid players in this league and they have talent. Say what you want about Curry and Zach, but teams would want those players even with their salaries. But even ignoring those two, Lee, Balkman, Nate, and Collins are all on the rookie scale and all have the potential to be above average players. Moreover, Chandler looks like a Jefferson/Marion clone and Nichols looks like a middle-class man's Glen Rice. I even forgot to mention Morris who looked pretty solid in summer league.

IT's plan is simple. When a superstar becomes available, he is going to convince the superstar to come to NY and try to use leverage and the talent that he has to convince the other team that a trade is in their best interests. Like you said, players want to play in NY. They will be willing to say to their old team, "Hey, if you get me to NY, NY has several young players that can help you. Work out a sign and trade that is beneficial for all parties otherwise I will sign with someone else with no compensation to you." It is an easier sell to the other teams fans because they can say they made the trade to avoid losing the superstar for nothing.

This strategy will work if a superstar is a free agent, or as we almost saw this summer, if the superstar is soon to become a free agent. It is a different approach, but given the fact that it allows you to develop your team without intentionally tanking games, I cannot say I disagree with IT's strategy now that a clear one has developed.

In any event, if we wanted to, we could get under the cap in two years. Marbury and Rose are coming off the books in the summer of 2009. We could easily trade Curry and a bad contract to a team with cap space for future picks and an expiring contract. You then package guys like JJ2 with a young player and for expiring contracts and picks and I don't think it would really be that difficult to get under the cap, especially when we have roughly $30 mill dropping off automatically in Marbury and Rose. SO if cap space is what you want, the talent on our team would allow us to get it, but I think the trade strategy will work best for us.

[Edited by - thegame on 07-25-2007 04:46 AM]
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MS
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7/25/2007  1:39 PM
Wow chandler looks like a jefferson marion clone? In what respect? Nicholas looks like a middle class glen rice, your basing alot on summer league which means nothing. Morris looked solid, frankly it really doesn't matter how anyone looked. It's nice to see players play well as opposed to struggling.....

But I don't think the value of zach and curry is all that high to begin with right now. You have a 23pt 10rb guy and the best you can do is channing frye and the right to buy out Francis. That basically tells you all you need to know about his worth and value......You couldn't even get richard jefferson for the guy there are tons of teams out there that need low post scoring, namely the bulls who could have very easily packaged a young player and a pick and saved portland a ton of money. Nate has very little value around the league as do just about every player on our roster outside of lee and balkman right now and to a lesser extent collins
nixluva
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7/25/2007  1:49 PM
Posted by MS:

Wow chandler looks like a jefferson marion clone? In what respect? Nicholas looks like a middle class glen rice, your basing alot on summer league which means nothing. Morris looked solid, frankly it really doesn't matter how anyone looked. It's nice to see players play well as opposed to struggling.....

But I don't think the value of zach and curry is all that high to begin with right now. You have a 23pt 10rb guy and the best you can do is channing frye and the right to buy out Francis. That basically tells you all you need to know about his worth and value......You couldn't even get richard jefferson for the guy there are tons of teams out there that need low post scoring, namely the bulls who could have very easily packaged a young player and a pick and saved portland a ton of money. Nate has very little value around the league as do just about every player on our roster outside of lee and balkman right now and to a lesser extent collins

Zach's track record, which has been blown out of proportion, is the reason teams stay away. It has nothing to do with how good a player he is. This is the only reason his trade value was low.

Despite what you may think Zach is a VERY good player. His PER rating is at 23.1 and his oppenents only avg out at 15.1. When he's played Center the differential is even bigger, 33.7 to 14.8 for a +18.9. That shows that he's really a productive player despite the Blazers record. Having that huge of a disparity from his production to that of his opponents flies in the face of him being a horrible defender. Why then don't guys produce more against him? People look at his poor help D and assume that he plays no D at all. Like Curry he's got a lot to improve on when it comes to Team D, but his man D is not bad.
newyorknewyork
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7/25/2007  1:53 PM
This team definatly could have been way farhter off then it is now with better decision making. Your lieing to yourself if you don't believe so.

Don't overpay or trade for Marbury sit still instead and focus on the draft(which Dwight Howard & Okafor were comming out of also focus on getting under the cap).
Don't trade for Crawford & keep Mutombo or offer Crawford a 4-5yr contract instead of 7.
Buy late rd draft picks for 3-4mil a pop rather than 20mil.
Don't make the Mo Taylor trade & keep the 2nd rd picks.
Sign Diop for cheap over Jerome James at 5yrs 30mil.
Draft Bynum over Frye.
Refuse to overpay or lottery protect picks for Eddie Curry.
Never trade Ariza for Francis.
Don't sign Jefferies.

That equates to 9 poor decisions that have hamperd the team from being successful. Avoid most of those poor decisions and continue to draft solid the way Isiah has drafted and we not only would have a successful team right now. We would have way more cap flexablility.
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MS
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7/25/2007  2:00 PM
Great points nyny, there is some fantasy that because your critical you are thinking in hindsight instead of actually realizing upfront that deals are one sided in another teams favor. Fact of the matter is that every deal just listed could have gotten done, because those other teams lacked flexibility.

No one was taking marbury and penny and then giving up draft selections in the process, crawford was suspect then and he is suspect know and sadly to say during a stretch when deke played the entire game has was very close in production to curry when you factor in defense and the guy is making peanuts. We didn't have to sign jerome isiah is just a bonehead and makes awful decision. We are lucky that isiah got turned down on a deal that would have sent miles and ratliff for richardson and lee before last season......He doesn't make good deals.......

And involving yourself and surrounding yourself with ghetto scumbags that bring trouble around you, punching out a teammate and having sex with a girl against her will are a few read flags that really killed zachs value. Hopefully he has a great season and we can move him for something good with a shorter deal since we are in bed with curry now
nixluva
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7/25/2007  2:17 PM
Posted by newyorknewyork:

This team definatly could have been way farhter off then it is now with better decision making. Your lieing to yourself if you don't believe so.

Don't overpay or trade for Marbury sit still instead and focus on the draft(which Dwight Howard & Okafor were comming out of also focus on getting under the cap).
Don't trade for Crawford & keep Mutombo or offer Crawford a 4-5yr contract instead of 7.
Buy late rd draft picks for 3-4mil a pop rather than 20mil.
Don't make the Mo Taylor trade & keep the 2nd rd picks.
Sign Diop for cheap over Jerome James at 5yrs 30mil.
Draft Bynum over Frye.
Refuse to overpay or lottery protect picks for Eddie Curry.
Never trade Ariza for Francis.
Don't sign Jefferies.

That equates to 9 poor decisions that have hamperd the team from being successful. Avoid most of those poor decisions and continue to draft solid the way Isiah has drafted and we not only would have a successful team right now. We would have way more cap flexablility.

You are ignoring the mandate that Dolan had from the start. I'm not really disagreeing with your process of improving the team, but this isn't merely a theoretical situation. There were some real world considerations that Dolan and Isiah had to deal with. Dolan wanted to keep his little empire from going further south. Now it just so happens that his plans didn't really work out, but in that 1st year the team did sneak into the playoffs.

Dolan thinks bottom line and a marquee player is part of his business model. It's like getting some movie star to take a role in a Broadway play. That's what NY'ers expect for their dollar. I'm not saying this is right thinking, only that it's the reality of the situation at the time. Dolan also still had H2O and KT and he's was likely of the opinion that with another good player he could get back to a playoff level team.

1.5 years of that is all Isiah wasted and then we've been dealing with the Curry Era. So to me that's not a long time to wait and we got about the business of getting younger and more talented, which we certainly are now. All that needs to happen now is for this team to win this year and keep progressing from here.

[Edited by - nixluva on 07-25-2007 2:18 PM]
MS
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7/25/2007  2:28 PM
Which was all well in good, i do believe the marbury deal needed to be done to give the team a shot in the arm, but that year you could really see isiah rushing to make things happen instead of realizing that you let marbury do what he needs to and work pick and rolls with Thomas, Van Horn and Doleac.....

Trading all of those guys is the fudemental flaw in isiahs thinking, athletes over chemistry
nixluva
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7/25/2007  2:41 PM
Posted by MS:

Which was all well in good, i do believe the marbury deal needed to be done to give the team a shot in the arm, but that year you could really see isiah rushing to make things happen instead of realizing that you let marbury do what he needs to and work pick and rolls with Thomas, Van Horn and Doleac.....

Trading all of those guys is the fudemental flaw in isiahs thinking, athletes over chemistry

That's one way to look at it, but Isiah's main goal is to make this team a contender for the Title. The fact that he doesn't waste time with inferior rosters when he can make the team better is a good thing to me. This team is now full of good players and they are young enough that we can allow them to jell and develop chemistry to go along with their better talent.

Just look at this team and you can see we've got what we need to win and do so for years to come. IF the team was stagnant like it was under Layden, I could see reasons for being angry with Isiah, but the guy is an excellent drafter and this team makes sense now. You can see that he's added the things we need for this team to be a winning team. It seems that too many of us are being overly critical of his moves. You want to see results and that's fine, but even before the season begins you can see that he's doing everything he can to improve this team.
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