Posted by BlueSeats:

Some of you guys are probably too young to understand something, because aside from hip-hop being a large enough cultural phenomenon that it simply surrounded your upbringing, you saw it gloried it magazines and music videos, etc. However, many of you may know that it's roots grew out of prison culture. The do-rag represents a stocking over the head as used in stickups. The untied sneakers represent prison life, where laces are disallowed to prevent fleeing on foot. And the oversized jeans worn halfway down the ass represent mis-sized clothing, as stolen to replace the jumpsuit after a prison break.

You simply have to understand the symbolism of that to un-hip America, and the rest of the world. When middle aged and above non-urban tourists are in a $500/night hotel somewhere and a busload of young NBA players traipse through the lobby looking like they were brought in from the police station it can be unsettling. If a little ol' white lady asks the concierge "who are these people?" it may not be as racist as you think; on a certain level it's a natural reaction to the out of context symbolism put forth by the players. Intentional or not, the word association attached to the wardrobe is "hoodlums," and I'm not sure it's fair to expect otherwise from the un-hip viewer. The same crew walking through bedecked in $5000 sits begets a far different reaction, and those considerate of impressions should appreciate the positivity, not negativity, of that difference.

Just google the topic of semiotics (the study of signs and symbols) to understand that almost all imagery has mental connotations associated with it, and the one projected by hip-hop is far different to different cultures. To blacks it represents "black pride". To older whites it represents "convict".

To take race of out it you'd have to imagine a league of mexicans dressing up as Poncho Villa, or whites wearing orange prison jumpsuits, perhaps sporting a Nazi tattoo on their foreheads like Charles Manson. Black American youths may bristle at hip-hop fashion being compared to gun totters or unremorseful, cold blooded killers, but in the yes of the less informed that's how it reads. It doesn't take too many incidents of well publicized arrests and violence to irreparably reenforce that symbolism.

Naturally when faced with a rash of such incidents the commissioner did what he could to clean up the NBA image. It's not exploitational, or retreat, it's doing what one can for the good of all involved. Evidence suggests that a black commissioner, like Isiah, would do the same.

As far as hip-hop, or casual dress goes, I think we've seen a lowering of dress standards that transcends race. It's even migrated into many workplaces, especially those with minimal people contact outside of the company.

In past generations by the time a child was an adolescent he might have worn a tie dozens of times: a family portrait, attendance at a baptism or communion, school graduations, weddings, church on Sunday, etc. But kids these days consider it dressing up if they put on a new t-shirt and jeans. This goes for many white kids too, but probably less so because dressing down in white communities merely represents a decline in formalities, whereas in some parts of some black communities it may also represent black pride.

Naturally, if the first time a black man is told he needs to dress differently it's by a white/jew they're gonna feel it's racially motivated - especially the gifted darlings, like Iverson, who grow up as stars and might even have the power to get teachers and coaches fired by the time they're 15.

But if a person is cognizant of the symbolism of their wardrobe they might understand that it's not as uplifting to their image and heritage as they may think. I'd bet an arm that Martin Luther King wouldn't have been caught dead in public wearing a rolled up stocking on his head - I mean do-rag.


[Edited by - blueseats on 05-24-2007 6:34 PM]

So if blacks aren't watching the NHL is it because we are racist? Of course it has to do with race. We don't watch because there are very few black players. But is that a negative thing? Or is it a product of people watching who they relate with.

Posted by Bippity10:

Posted by Pharzeone:

Posted by Bippity10:

The original article implied that over some period of time(not sure what that period is becuase it is never mentioned) that whites are turning away from the sport. And blacks are not. Their are no statistics being presented anywhere that indicates that this is so. Now I have some statistics that say in 2005 and 2006 that blacks in some major cities watched a lot of the finals.

I guess that I just don't understand the point of the original argument and what the author was basing his opinions on. There are a lot of black players in the NBA. A lot of black people watch. There are very few black players in the NHL. Not a lot of black people watch it. Is this racism? Do people like to watch what they can relate to? My guess is that you can say yes to both questions but that the majority of people fit into the category of question number 2.

Did you read the article. The author said that the amount of white viewers drop as the number of black players increase. The author described that as racial not racist. The same as your hockey analogy. It is hard to use hockey as a factor because the NHL cannot provide any evidence where there was enough of African-American viewership that declined as hockey began increasing white. On the flip side the NHL has seen in increase in viewership of African-American viewers over the last 10 years. So your basis is sort of weak. BTW, Commissioner Bettman was primarily hired to attract more viewers particularly African-American viewers since he was credited with this while working for the NBA. Bettman openly admits to taking steps to increase African-American as well as Hispanic viewers such as the 2007 NHL All-Star Luncheon titled "African Americans in Hockey"

Pharzeone you are the one who might be off. I havent' made a conclusion either way you just assume that I have. I'm asking for someone to give me evidence that viewership is down amongst one race but not down amongst others. I'm just asking for someone to present this evidence to me. I don't know what races it's down amongts because noone has presented that evidence to me. That's all I'm asking. Why is that a point of contention? After some evidence is presented I may agree with you and Playa and eveyrone else. But not before. I don't jump to conclusions because someone elsesaid it is so.

So if blacks aren't watching the NHL is it because we are racist? Of course it has to do with race. We don't watch because there are very few black players. But is that a negative thing? Or is it a product of people watching who they relate with.

Once again race is alwasy an issue. But sometiems the issue is less sinister than we make it. Blacks preferring bball over hockey to me is no different than americans preferring football over soccer. It's what you can relate too. Nothing sinister about it.

Bip are you serious about this? All you have to do is go online and look at the figures yourself. Viewership is down among white males while viewing increased in African-American homes. In addition to African-American increases, NBA has increase viewers among Hispanics and Asian Americans. These aren't top secret stats, my friend. Just Goggle it.

Posted by Pharzeone:

LOL, I saw that too from BlueSeats but I just think he is a little out of touch with the younger generation all away around. I am a little too but not as much as Blue.

Posted by PresIke:

Posted by BlueSeats:

Some of you guys are probably too young to understand something, because aside from hip-hop being a large enough cultural phenomenon that it simply surrounded your upbringing, you saw it gloried it magazines and music videos, etc. However, many of you may know that it's roots grew out of prison culture. The do-rag represents a stocking over the head as used in stickups. The untied sneakers represent prison life, where laces are disallowed to prevent fleeing on foot. And the oversized jeans worn halfway down the ass represent mis-sized clothing, as stolen to replace the jumpsuit after a prison break.

You simply have to understand the symbolism of that to un-hip America, and the rest of the world. When middle aged and above non-urban tourists are in a $500/night hotel somewhere and a busload of young NBA players traipse through the lobby looking like they were brought in from the police station it can be unsettling. If a little ol' white lady asks the concierge "who are these people?" it may not be as racist as you think; on a certain level it's a natural reaction to the out of context symbolism put forth by the players. Intentional or not, the word association attached to the wardrobe is "hoodlums," and I'm not sure it's fair to expect otherwise from the un-hip viewer. The same crew walking through bedecked in $5000 sits begets a far different reaction, and those considerate of impressions should appreciate the positivity, not negativity, of that difference.

Just google the topic of semiotics (the study of signs and symbols) to understand that almost all imagery has mental connotations associated with it, and the one projected by hip-hop is far different to different cultures. To blacks it represents "black pride". To older whites it represents "convict".

To take race of out it you'd have to imagine a league of mexicans dressing up as Poncho Villa, or whites wearing orange prison jumpsuits, perhaps sporting a Nazi tattoo on their foreheads like Charles Manson. Black American youths may bristle at hip-hop fashion being compared to gun totters or unremorseful, cold blooded killers, but in the yes of the less informed that's how it reads. It doesn't take too many incidents of well publicized arrests and violence to irreparably reenforce that symbolism.

Naturally when faced with a rash of such incidents the commissioner did what he could to clean up the NBA image. It's not exploitational, or retreat, it's doing what one can for the good of all involved. Evidence suggests that a black commissioner, like Isiah, would do the same.

As far as hip-hop, or casual dress goes, I think we've seen a lowering of dress standards that transcends race. It's even migrated into many workplaces, especially those with minimal people contact outside of the company.

In past generations by the time a child was an adolescent he might have worn a tie dozens of times: a family portrait, attendance at a baptism or communion, school graduations, weddings, church on Sunday, etc. But kids these days consider it dressing up if they put on a new t-shirt and jeans. This goes for many white kids too, but probably less so because dressing down in white communities merely represents a decline in formalities, whereas in some parts of some black communities it may also represent black pride.

Naturally, if the first time a black man is told he needs to dress differently it's by a white/jew they're gonna feel it's racially motivated - especially the gifted darlings, like Iverson, who grow up as stars and might even have the power to get teachers and coaches fired by the time they're 15.

But if a person is cognizant of the symbolism of their wardrobe they might understand that it's not as uplifting to their image and heritage as they may think. I'd bet an arm that Martin Luther King wouldn't have been caught dead in public wearing a rolled up stocking on his head - I mean do-rag.


[Edited by - blueseats on 05-24-2007 6:34 PM]

I was going to stay out of this, but I think some things need to be said in response, respectfully. While street culture is part of hip-hop maybe it's worth asking why this is the primary perception of hip-hop from those who know little about it. BlueSeats, you even admitted in the discussion about Imus that you felt that he was just saying things that are stated in rap lyrics. My point is WHY are so many (mostly older, but younger whites as well) so convinced that this is hip-hop. I can go on for far too long demonstrating evidence to show why hip-hop is a lot more than about crime and jail culture, and also VERY influenced in activism, social consciousness, and other strongly rooted seeds of black culture, which have NOTHING to do with the stereotypes of rap that exist today.

While I respect your earnestness in expressing you view, I really think that as a white male (I believe) you don't know what you are talking about in a lot of areas in terms of black culture, behavior, and hip-hop. I am white male and as someone who did grow up listening to hip-hop (and I am not that young) I can tell you for a fact that there is far more to it than what you may see. I mean I wouldn't expect someone to ask my point of view about good stock picks or what hedge fund I should invest my money if I was super-rich since I don't know jack about that, so why do so many white people feel so comfortable deciding what black people should do, when they don't even know what it is like to be black and are recipients of power and privilege in current society.

Rebelling against elements of social control from white culture's long standing hegemony in the North America, South America, Europe and Asia, elsewhere is one possible explanation as to why there is a rebellion against it everywhere, whether it be radical Muslims feeling ostracized and humiliated by Western dominance in their region or blacks who were stolen from their own land and enslaved for hundreds of years then expected to play nice and accept the dominant culture that essentially destroyed as much of their own (i.e. African). So finding ANY possible way to rebel and express it, in hip-hop, basketball, etc. when in every other place being or acting "black" is an automatic negative when it comes to achieving success should not be a major shock.

When you have people like MLK and Malcolm murdered when they tried to do right, and peaceful demonstrators attacked by the institutions of government whether it be the police, politicians or the supreme court, it's kind of hard to have faith in a society that ran away ('White Flight') as soon as you show up, or pushes you out of your own community when they decide that they want to move in later on ('Gentrification'). Hip-Hop was started by young people who didn't have sht in their communities but urban blight from neglect by politicians and businesses that didn't give a care what happened to them. So, these young people in the 1970's used their creative minds to find a way to cope with it by creating hip-hop. They took the knowledge that came from Black radio and Jamaican immigrants (DJing/MCing) tools everyone had to listen to music (turntables) or already had (parents record collections) and used them as well as the streets, which the city didn't care about (plugging into street lamps to get power for block parties) and created the culture with dancing (breakdancing) and visual art (grafitti) to accompany it all. It was all party music at first, but the dejection about life in poverty where it seemed no one gave a damn ('Ford to City: Drop Dead', and Reganomics...see the video footage when Regan went to the Bronx in the early 80's and people are screaming at him) Then people like Melle Mell and Grandmaster Flash decided to make songs that let people know about what they know...life in the streets, ('The Black CNN' - Chuck D) which was not so fun and pleasant ('The Message,' 'New York, New York'). This is the roots of street hip-hop which popularly glorifies this culture now, but that wasn't the way it started, although soon after there were rappers glorifying and fabricating street culture...(Schooly D, Kool G Rap) because it made money...like any form of entertainment.

What has happened is the conglomeration of hip-hop by major corporations who only want to sell the b.s. because that's what sells. Just like Hollywood won't make too many movies without sex, violence, etc. because that's what sells. All of late modern capitalism is based on selling whatever you have to to make money, and that ain't the fault of the black community for sure. So again, I ask, why is it that people of color should listen to white people telling them what to do when these groups have tried to do this and still can't get their fair piece of the pie. The confusion among whites is not about being "hip" but about knowing, or thinking about their own role in the past and today in continuing a situation where equality and opportunity are undermined by who has the power and privilege, and who doesn't.

Also, btw, I believe oversized pants comes from not being able to have a belt in prison since you might kill someone with it, or yourself.