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Bulls' future vs. Knicks


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Bonn1997
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Which team has a brighter future?
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Knicks
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nixluva
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5/14/2007  10:59 AM
Posted by djsunyc:
Posted by nixluva:


They need an inside presence and not just anybody. Someone who will force teams to double the post. As it is they're going to have to make a trade for what they need.

they don't need someone that forces double teams. they just need someone to get easy high% baskets. teams don't double team sheed yet he's good enough in the post to help detroit win a title and come close to winning another one.

I understand what you're saying, but, I wouldn't use Sheed as an example, cuz on his team there's no way that you come out of man to try and double anyone. They're too good from the perimeter. Sheed also doesn't really post up a lot. That's not their offense. The guy is a league leader in 3's made at his position this year. They also have advantages at every position in that Billups, Rip and Prince can all create their own shots. Perhaps I should word it better in that the Post player should be a guy that can consistently score against anyone. Not just the scrubs of the league. What this comes down to is being able to beat teams like Detroit. For that you'll need more than a competent post scorer IMO. That guy won't be so effective in the playoffs against better competition. If all they needed was a guy that could score inside, then Sweetney would be a decent option. He can score inside well enough for a few possessions if he's not doubled. Unfortunately not against the better teams that they'd face in the playoffs.
AUTOADVERT
Bonn1997
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5/14/2007  10:59 AM
Posted by djsunyc:
Posted by nixluva:


They need an inside presence and not just anybody. Someone who will force teams to double the post. As it is they're going to have to make a trade for what they need.

they don't need someone that forces double teams. they just need someone to get easy high% baskets. teams don't double team sheed yet he's good enough in the post to help detroit win a title and come close to winning another one.
I agree with that. It would open their offense if they added a role player like Shareef, Gooden, Wilcox, Blount, McDyess, or Kaman. They could get these players while keeping their versatile young players. Or they could go after Pau, JO, or KG and (unlike us) still have A LOT of pieces left to work with after the trade. Or they could go for someone in between those levels like Antoine Jamison. The idea that they won't address their one need with all their assets but we'll address our many needs with minimal assets is a stretch (to put it politely).
Bonn1997
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5/14/2007  11:00 AM
Posted by nixluva:
Posted by djsunyc:
Posted by nixluva:


They need an inside presence and not just anybody. Someone who will force teams to double the post. As it is they're going to have to make a trade for what they need.

they don't need someone that forces double teams. they just need someone to get easy high% baskets. teams don't double team sheed yet he's good enough in the post to help detroit win a title and come close to winning another one.

I understand what you're saying, but, I wouldn't use Sheed as an example, cuz on his team there's no way that you come out of man to try and double anyone. They're too good from the perimeter. Sheed also doesn't really post up a lot. That's not their offense. The guy is a league leader in 3's made at his position this year. They also have advantages at every position in that Billups, Rip and Prince can all create their own shots. Perhaps I should word it better in that the Post player should be a guy that can consistently score against anyone. Not just the scrubs of the league. What this comes down to is being able to beat teams like Detroit. For that you'll need more than a competent post scorer IMO. That guy won't be so effective in the playoffs against better competition. If all they needed was a guy that could score inside, then Sweetney would be a decent option. He can score inside well enough for a few possessions if he's not doubled. Unfortunately not against the better teams that they'd face in the playoffs.
Sweetney's an awful example. He's chubby and shouldn't even be in the league. They need a respectable low post option who doesn't give up tons of points on defense.
nixluva
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5/14/2007  11:16 AM
Posted by Bonn1997:
You're speaking in generalities and not being specific. They used cap space to sign Ben Wallace and that was a good short term move. However, simply having cap space and no real FA's to sign with that cap space renders the cap space useless.
That's not true. You can make trades without the salaries matching if you're under the cap.

TRUE! But I believe that if the cap next year is say about 55mil, the most the Bulls can be under the cap is about 12mil. That's if they don't resign Nocioni and let Sweetney walk. Pau is the cheapest of the top bigs being mentioned in trades and he's at 13.7mil for 07/08.
djsunyc
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5/14/2007  11:26 AM
Posted by nixluva:
Posted by djsunyc:
Posted by nixluva:


They need an inside presence and not just anybody. Someone who will force teams to double the post. As it is they're going to have to make a trade for what they need.

they don't need someone that forces double teams. they just need someone to get easy high% baskets. teams don't double team sheed yet he's good enough in the post to help detroit win a title and come close to winning another one.

I understand what you're saying, but, I wouldn't use Sheed as an example, cuz on his team there's no way that you come out of man to try and double anyone. They're too good from the perimeter. Sheed also doesn't really post up a lot. That's not their offense. The guy is a league leader in 3's made at his position this year. They also have advantages at every position in that Billups, Rip and Prince can all create their own shots. Perhaps I should word it better in that the Post player should be a guy that can consistently score against anyone. Not just the scrubs of the league. What this comes down to is being able to beat teams like Detroit. For that you'll need more than a competent post scorer IMO. That guy won't be so effective in the playoffs against better competition. If all they needed was a guy that could score inside, then Sweetney would be a decent option. He can score inside well enough for a few possessions if he's not doubled. Unfortunately not against the better teams that they'd face in the playoffs.

do you not see hinrich, ben and deng as a much younger version of billups, rip and prince? how do you double off those guys? what you're seeing is a team of men beating up on a team of boys. the bulls are just too young to beat a team like the pistons (a nba champion, and still at that level). they just need to find a guy to help them down low - and it could be another shareef abdhur rahim type, it doesn't have to be a superduper star. they are building their team around defense exactly like the pistons did. and the pistons were 50 game winners for 2 years before the sheed trade (just like the bulls are now). so the bulls just need to make their sheed trade. not easy, but it can be done.
nixluva
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5/14/2007  11:30 AM
Posted by Bonn1997:
Posted by djsunyc:
Posted by nixluva:


They need an inside presence and not just anybody. Someone who will force teams to double the post. As it is they're going to have to make a trade for what they need.

they don't need someone that forces double teams. they just need someone to get easy high% baskets. teams don't double team sheed yet he's good enough in the post to help detroit win a title and come close to winning another one.
I agree with that. It would open their offense if they added a role player like Shareef, Gooden, Wilcox, Blount, McDyess, or Kaman. They could get these players while keeping their versatile young players.
I'm sorry but I can't agree that adding one of these guys is gonna make the Bulls a Finals contender. I think you're overrating what these guys can do and underrating the competition in the playoffs.
Posted by Bonn1997:

Or they could go after Pau, JO, or KG and (unlike us) still have A LOT of pieces left to work with after the trade. Or they could go for someone in between those levels like Antoine Jamison. The idea that they won't address their one need with all their assets but we'll address our many needs with minimal assets is a stretch (to put it politely).

Now we're back to the real choices at hand. The thing is that the Bulls are in a weaker negotiating position now, since these teams KNOW that the Bulls desparately need what they have in order to have a chance to advance past a team like Detroit. If Memphis was already asking for Deng, that's not gonna change now. Each one of those teams is gonna be getting offers from other teams for these players and they see this as a chance to start fresh and they won't just take garbage for their only valuable trade chip.

BlueSeats
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5/14/2007  11:33 AM
This is great. Since finishing our 33 win season I've been educated that we're in a better position than the Bulls and the Mavs. At this rate I'll expect us to be better than the Spurs, Suns and Pistons as early as next week.
Bonn1997
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5/14/2007  11:34 AM
Posted by nixluva:
Posted by Bonn1997:
Posted by djsunyc:
Posted by nixluva:


They need an inside presence and not just anybody. Someone who will force teams to double the post. As it is they're going to have to make a trade for what they need.

they don't need someone that forces double teams. they just need someone to get easy high% baskets. teams don't double team sheed yet he's good enough in the post to help detroit win a title and come close to winning another one.
I agree with that. It would open their offense if they added a role player like Shareef, Gooden, Wilcox, Blount, McDyess, or Kaman. They could get these players while keeping their versatile young players.
I'm sorry but I can't agree that adding one of these guys is gonna make the Bulls a Finals contender. I think you're overrating what these guys can do and underrating the competition in the playoffs.
Posted by Bonn1997:

Or they could go after Pau, JO, or KG and (unlike us) still have A LOT of pieces left to work with after the trade. Or they could go for someone in between those levels like Antoine Jamison. The idea that they won't address their one need with all their assets but we'll address our many needs with minimal assets is a stretch (to put it politely).

Now we're back to the real choices at hand. The thing is that the Bulls are in a weaker negotiating position now, since these teams KNOW that the Bulls desparately need what they have in order to have a chance to advance past a team like Detroit. If Memphis was already asking for Deng, that's not gonna change now. Each one of those teams is gonna be getting offers from other teams for these players and they see this as a chance to start fresh and they won't just take garbage for their only valuable trade chip.
The power you have in negotiating has more to do with how good a negotiator the GM is. We already know Paxson is great at that since he got 4 draft picks from Isiah for his lazy center. I think we'll have to agree to disagree on whether a role player with a good post presence could significantly help the young, already 50 win Bulls' team.
Bonn1997
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5/14/2007  11:35 AM
Nixluva, is there any team in the league with a less bright future than ours?
TrueBlue
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5/14/2007  11:37 AM
Posted by nixluva:
Posted by Bonn1997:
Posted by djsunyc:
Posted by nixluva:


They need an inside presence and not just anybody. Someone who will force teams to double the post. As it is they're going to have to make a trade for what they need.

they don't need someone that forces double teams. they just need someone to get easy high% baskets. teams don't double team sheed yet he's good enough in the post to help detroit win a title and come close to winning another one.
I agree with that. It would open their offense if they added a role player like Shareef, Gooden, Wilcox, Blount, McDyess, or Kaman. They could get these players while keeping their versatile young players.
I'm sorry but I can't agree that adding one of these guys is gonna make the Bulls a Finals contender. I think you're overrating what these guys can do and underrating the competition in the playoffs.
Posted by Bonn1997:

Or they could go after Pau, JO, or KG and (unlike us) still have A LOT of pieces left to work with after the trade. Or they could go for someone in between those levels like Antoine Jamison. The idea that they won't address their one need with all their assets but we'll address our many needs with minimal assets is a stretch (to put it politely).

Now we're back to the real choices at hand. The thing is that the Bulls are in a weaker negotiating position now, since these teams KNOW that the Bulls desparately need what they have in order to have a chance to advance past a team like Detroit. If Memphis was already asking for Deng, that's not gonna change now. Each one of those teams is gonna be getting offers from other teams for these players and they see this as a chance to start fresh and they won't just take garbage for their only valuable trade chip.

And us adding Kapono, Carroll, Miller, isn't going to bring us any closer to a title either. Heck we probably wouldn't even get to 49wins like the Bulls did this yr with such additions. You're babbling just to babble. Bulls have a better future END OF STORY!, this particular topic just needs to take a different course. A federal court judge wouldn't have given you the time of day for you to present your case to him.

[Edited by - TrueBlue on 05-14-2007 10:38 AM]
LMFAO @ the Bio [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephon_Marbury[/url]
nixluva
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5/14/2007  11:42 AM
Posted by djsunyc:

do you not see hinrich, ben and deng as a much younger version of billups, rip and prince? how do you double off those guys? what you're seeing is a team of men beating up on a team of boys. the bulls are just too young to beat a team like the pistons (a nba champion, and still at that level). they just need to find a guy to help them down low - and it could be another shareef abdhur rahim type, it doesn't have to be a superduper star. they are building their team around defense exactly like the pistons did. and the pistons were 50 game winners for 2 years before the sheed trade (just like the bulls are now). so the bulls just need to make their sheed trade. not easy, but it can be done.

I'm sorry but I don't really rate Kirk, Ben and Deng that high. Deng is the closest of the 3. Ben is an Excellent scorer, but I don't see him having that advantage that Rip has in that he's a tall quick SG. Kirk is a solid player, but I can't see him as eventually being a Billups either. In terms of adding a lower tier PF like Shareef, well I just don't think that would be enough to put them over the top. If they had him and faced the Pistons again, I think they'd still lose, perhaps not as easily, but they'd still lose. Shareef or someone on that level, would have to deal with Sheed, Maxiell, McDyess and possibly Webber if he's still around.
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5/14/2007  11:44 AM
Posted by BlueSeats:

This is great. Since finishing our 33 win season I've been educated that we're in a better position than the Bulls and the Mavs. At this rate I'll expect us to be better than the Spurs, Suns and Pistons as early as next week.


He's a TOOL nothing more. I love how during the yr we couldn't compare our season to Toronto's, GSW's,........ (PHX, Ind, and Dallas from a yr or 2 ago) in terms of new additions, youth, injuries, coaching, GM, suspensions, etc etc etc but now we can compare our future with the Bulls.

[Edited by - TrueBlue on 05-14-2007 10:46 AM]
LMFAO @ the Bio [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephon_Marbury[/url]
nixluva
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5/14/2007  11:56 AM
Posted by TrueBlue:

And us adding Kapono, Carroll, Miller, isn't going to bring us any closer to a title either. Heck we probably wouldn't even get to 49wins like the Bulls did this yr with such additions. You're babbling just to babble. Bulls have a better future END OF STORY!, this particular topic just needs to take a different course. A federal court judge wouldn't have given you the time of day for you to present your case to him.

You're entitled to your opinion. You like the Bulls future prospects and I like the Knicks. We won't know for a while yet, but we'll see how things shake out. I think both Pax and Zeke have work to do in order to get their teams to the level of Finals contention.
You already know that I believe the Knicks are a playoff team despite what happened this year. Right now the Bulls are ahead of the Pace that the Knicks are at, but things can change very quickly in the NBA. Each GM has some options available to them and we'll see who can make the best move for their team. If Isiah decides to stand pat, then he's likely taking a different path. One that is long term in nature. He'd be preparing for 2009/10. I don't think Paxson can take that approach having added Ben Wallace and reached the 2nd rd. If he makes a lesser deal for a lower tier PF, then I don't like their chances of advancing. If he makes a deal for a big name, then I think he's gonna have to give up a good young player like Deng and I don't think he wants to do that. He's in a tough spot.
islesfan
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5/14/2007  11:56 AM
I think you're overrating what these guys can do and underrating the competition

This is the Pot calling the Stainless Steel Kettle, black.

nixluva, you've gone 4 pages telling us why you don't think lottery picks, cap space, young all star players and talented depth aren't going to help improve a team that's already capable of winning 50 games a year and getting to the second round of the playoffs.

Now please explain what the Knicks have, that the Bulls don't and can't acquire with their assets, that's going to give their 33 win team a brighter future than the Bulls.

And don't tell us how the Bulls young players have peaked while the Knicks young players are supposed to improve and have higher ceilings than their Bulls counterparts. Please be very specific when talking about which Bulls players can't get any better and which Knicks players you feel will improve by leaps and bounds.

Also, do you think the Knicks are a finished product, in terms of the makeup of their team, and if not, what methods do they have at their disposal that the Bulls do not, that will help them make the changes needed to surpass the Bulls?
If it didn’t work in Phoenix with Nash and Stoutamire... it’s just not a winning formula. It’s an entertaining formula, but not a winning one. - Derek Harper talking about D'Antoni's System
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5/14/2007  12:05 PM
Posted by nixluva:
Posted by TrueBlue:

And us adding Kapono, Carroll, Miller, isn't going to bring us any closer to a title either. Heck we probably wouldn't even get to 49wins like the Bulls did this yr with such additions. You're babbling just to babble. Bulls have a better future END OF STORY!, this particular topic just needs to take a different course. A federal court judge wouldn't have given you the time of day for you to present your case to him.

You're entitled to your opinion. You like the Bulls future prospects and I like the Knicks. We won't know for a while yet, but we'll see how things shake out. I think both Pax and Zeke have work to do in order to get their teams to the level of Finals contention.
You already know that I believe the Knicks are a playoff team despite what happened this year. Right now the Bulls are ahead of the Pace that the Knicks are at, but things can change very quickly in the NBA. Each GM has some options available to them and we'll see who can make the best move for their team. If Isiah decides to stand pat, then he's likely taking a different path. One that is long term in nature. He'd be preparing for 2009/10. I don't think Paxson can take that approach having added Ben Wallace and reached the 2nd rd. If he makes a lesser deal for a lower tier PF, then I don't like their chances of advancing. If he makes a deal for a big name, then I think he's gonna have to give up a good young player like Deng and I don't think he wants to do that. He's in a tough spot.

OK- I think I see your thinking- your statement is this:

Because Isiah is going to be taking a long term build approach to the team, keying in on 2010 as his make or break time, and Paxson has already laid out his cards and has to win now, that the Knicks are more likely to be able to build a contender than the bulls.
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5/14/2007  12:10 PM
Posted by franco12:
Posted by nixluva:
Posted by TrueBlue:

And us adding Kapono, Carroll, Miller, isn't going to bring us any closer to a title either. Heck we probably wouldn't even get to 49wins like the Bulls did this yr with such additions. You're babbling just to babble. Bulls have a better future END OF STORY!, this particular topic just needs to take a different course. A federal court judge wouldn't have given you the time of day for you to present your case to him.

You're entitled to your opinion. You like the Bulls future prospects and I like the Knicks. We won't know for a while yet, but we'll see how things shake out. I think both Pax and Zeke have work to do in order to get their teams to the level of Finals contention.
You already know that I believe the Knicks are a playoff team despite what happened this year. Right now the Bulls are ahead of the Pace that the Knicks are at, but things can change very quickly in the NBA. Each GM has some options available to them and we'll see who can make the best move for their team. If Isiah decides to stand pat, then he's likely taking a different path. One that is long term in nature. He'd be preparing for 2009/10. I don't think Paxson can take that approach having added Ben Wallace and reached the 2nd rd. If he makes a lesser deal for a lower tier PF, then I don't like their chances of advancing. If he makes a deal for a big name, then I think he's gonna have to give up a good young player like Deng and I don't think he wants to do that. He's in a tough spot.

OK- I think I see your thinking- your statement is this:

Because Isiah is going to be taking a long term build approach to the team, keying in on 2010 as his make or break time, and Paxson has already laid out his cards and has to win now, that the Knicks are more likely to be able to build a contender than the bulls.

If Isiah's plan is to build up the supporting cast & chips to get a Lebron or Wade in 2010, OK- I'd like that plan, though I don't think it is the plan.

But, you'd have to believe that the bulls don't have what it takes to get a superstar/game changing talent between now and then?

Chicago has assets- thanks to us- Ty Thomas and this year's pick. They have liquidity in the market.

Stevie Francis, Marbury- they don't.

Chicago could land KG and instantly have a roster deep and strong enough to get to the finals.

And here is the other thing- I feel Paxson and the Bulls ownership have better vision of where they are trying to go.

Dolan has been hampered by his shortsightedness.

Isiah has gone through coaches- whereas Paxson has pretty much stuck with Skiles.
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5/14/2007  12:45 PM
I'm with nixluva. The Knicks are a playoff team. Someday soon, I hope the conspiracy to deny them their rightful spot in the playoffs will be revealed.

If there is any justice in the world, the Bulls will be disqualified from the playoffs (as they are clearly not a playoff team) and the Knicks will assume their rightful place as the Piston's opponents, where I am sure they will prevail.

nixluva and I will be watching and cheering our beloved Knicks on. Where will all of you HATERS be?



[Edited by - basketballjones on 05-14-2007 12:48]
https:// It's not so hard.
TrueBlue
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5/14/2007  12:49 PM
Better in 2yrs

Marbury or Hinrich=Hinrich
Jamal or Gordon=Gordon
Q or Deng=Deng
Lee or Nocioni=Wash.... maybe Lee edges him out
Curry or Wallace=I'll go ahead and say Chubby
Francis or FA=FA
Nate or ?=Nate
Jeffries or Sefolosha=Sef
Balk or Thomas=Wash
Frye or Draft pick=Unknown
Collins or Duhon=Wash
Morris or ?=Morris


I just don't see how any sane human being can think otherwise.

[Edited by - TrueBlue on 05-14-2007 11:51 AM]
LMFAO @ the Bio [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephon_Marbury[/url]
Bonn1997
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5/14/2007  12:52 PM
Posted by BasketballJones:

I'm with nixluva. The Knicks are a playoff team. Someday soon, I hope the conspiracy to deny them their rightful spot in the playoffs will be revealed.

If there is any justice in the world, the Bulls will be disqualified from the playoffs (as they are clearly not a playoff team) and the Knicks will assume their rightful place as the Piston's opponents, where I am sure they will prevail.

nixluva and I will be watching and cheering our beloved Knicks on. Where will all of you HATERS be?



[Edited by - basketballjones on 05-14-2007 12:48]
I can't tell if you really believe that or are using sarcasm to mock nixluva but I'll assume you really believe it.

So
The Knicks are a playoff team.
based on what?
the Bulls will be disqualified from the playoffs (as they are clearly not a playoff team)
based on what?
BasketballJones
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5/14/2007  12:54 PM
Some of you guys sound like members of the reality based community.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reality-based_community
The source of the term is a quotation in an October 17, 2004, New York Times Magazine article by writer Ron Suskind, quoting an unnamed aide to George W. Bush:

The aide said that guys like me were "in what we call the reality-based community," which he defined as people who "believe that solutions emerge from your judicious study of discernible reality." ... "That's not the way the world really works anymore," he continued. "We're an empire now, and when we act, we create our own reality. And while you're studying that reality—judiciously, as you will—we'll act again, creating other new realities, which you can study too, and that's how things will sort out. We're history's actors . . . and you, all of you, will be left to just study what we do."

And that aide's name was....
https:// It's not so hard.
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