Posted by oohah:

I'm not sure whether being "played as a jumpshooter" really has all that much effect on it. I especially don't think your argument holds for Balkman. He picks his spots form the perimeter to crash the boards. His defense is always great. He runs the break. Its not as if he contributes all that much offensively anyway. If you didn't put him on the perimeter where would you put him?

Lee's rebounding would be strong regardless, in my opinion. There may be a dip in offensive rebounding, but he'd still slip behind the defense every now and then.

I guess we will have to disagree, because I don't know of many players who rebounding is there primary skill who start out 20 feet from the basket. Unless they leap can over the backs of the defensive players on every play (Without fouling) they will have a tough time rebounding. Nearly every effective rebounder plays close to the basket for a reason.

They don't run much for Balkman or Lee, they gets all of their points off of put backs and getting passes around the basket for layups and dunks. Most of that would be gone.

Lee slipping behind the defense for rebound or two is a far cry from the effectiveness he displays as the leading offensive rebounder in the game which is probably the genesis of at least half his points.

Frye's jumpshooting is disappointing to me more than anything else. Again, being put on the perimeter doesn't make him a mindless, unreactive individual. And that really doesn't account for the majority of his struggles.

I don't see Frye as a mindless, unreactive individual. I really think that is an exaggeration.

I do think his being played as a primarily perimeter player is the cause of the majority of his struggles. As DJ posted this past week, Frye's offensive use has been totally changed this year from being played within 10-12 feet of the basket and using his J as a supplement to that game, to being made totally into a jumpshooter and un-featured. I don't remember the percentages but it was pretty dramatic.

Having said that, I am disappointed with his shooting too. But he really isn't different from most offensive players. They have to be put in the position to succeed. Eddie Curry, Michael Redd, Jannero Pargo. Personally I thought he would be played as s higher-post man (To use that nice jump hook) and flashing to the ball off of screen for rhythm shots. That's how I would use him.

oohah

We will have to disagree. Lamar Odom, David West and Shawn Marion are examples of largely perimeter players off the top of my head who do a good job reacting to a defensive scheme and anticipating offensive rebounds. So, I can't tell you if they triple jump over the stands or molest other players to accomplish what they do, but it certainly isn't true that playing close to the basket is essential for strong rebounding. It helps, without a doubt, but Frye's poor performance goes beyond that. If you look closely, his rebounding numbers are almost identical to his numbers last season. His mediocre defensive rebounding (~ 4 per game) and poor shotblocking (at 0.7 bpg), which are unaffected by his role in the offense, reflect deficienies in his play rather than Isiah's coaching.

The "mindless" comment was rhetorical but I think you should get the point that Frye's movement in the offense hasn't been adequate, for reasons of his placement (Isiah) as well as his sluggish activity within the framework. So we agree that Frye should play closer to the basket. But saying that Frye should be better utilized is a far cry from the reality that his development has either stalled or regressed this season.

The points you make about Lee and Balkman really elude me. Playing on the perimeter doesn't mean you cant drive towards the basket or anticipate a rebound on the weak side. In my opinion, Balkman already plays on the perimeter - he's just in motion more often than not. Balkman gets as many offensive rebounds as Frye in 10 less minutes. Lee does have the advantage of playing closer to the basket but, then, he grabs 3 more defensive rebounds than Frye in 3 more minutes.

What we're discussing is really how much of Frye's disappointing play is due to his own regression. So while Isiah is surely to blame (when isn't he?), Frye's numbers on the defensive end have not progressed and his shooting has been disappointing.

Posted by oohah:

[quote]

Anticipating weak-side rebounds and running them down make up a very small percentage of rebounds taken, most rebounds are gotten by players who play near the basket. There is a reason why Lee and Balkman rarely stray more than 5 feet from the hoop; it's because that is where the rebounds are.


oohah

I never claimed that they constituted a major percentage, just that Balkman and Lee do it well. Moreover, the fact that running down an offensive rebound on the weak side makes for a small percentage of rebounds obtained is irrelevant if you consider that offensive rebounds make for a small percentage of total rebounds anyway. And, of course, depending on the offensive set, Frye isn't necessarily standing 20 feet away from the basket. I've indulged that hypothetical so far but I think we should be able to agree that, in the dynamic flow of each game, there is a significant percentage of posessions where Frye isn't isolated at the arc due to a play called by Isiah. And, thus, he isn't always placed in the worst position to grab an offensive rebound.

The reason I'm focusing on the offensive rebounding is because that seems to be your main point. Every other statistic on Channing, including defensive rebounding and blocks, is average or poor. Those are left unaccounted for.

Again, the argument is not that positioning doesn't affect offensive rebounding - the argument is that Channing's total at 1.3 per game is attributable to more than that. As an aside, Raef Lafrentz averaged over 2.1 per game (and sometimes significantly more in each of his 1st 6 seasons). In terms of how much Frye's positioning affects his rebounding, I think it would be useful to look at last year's statistic. There's a 0.8 differential in almost identical minutes. So, why don't we add that to Frye's total this year - putting him at 6.3 total rpg in 26 mpg. Assuming he converts a basket for each of those rebounds (which is a gift from me), it puts him at 11.4 ppg. I guess you could say thats alright but the interpretation of those number becomes very subjective. I'm disappointed with them. Especially in the context of his defensive rebounding, shot blocking and field goal percentage numbers.

Lamar was an 8rpg player his first two seasons. Marion has been a 10 rpg (with 2.5 offensive) long before the initiation of D'Antoni's system. I pointed out Lafrentz, of all people, before. To me, its a compelling argument that Frye is underachieving.

Posted by oohah:

You say Frye is underachieving, I say he is having trouble adjusting to being played as a perimeter player.

I got a little lost in the stats you wrote. My point is this: If we changed the role that Balkman or Lee have now: Crash the boards, chase down loose balls to: release valve for Curry, their offensive numbers would suffer and they would look uncertain on offense because this role does not fit their current skill sets.

Lee would be hurt more because even though offensive boards are a small percentage of total rebounds taken, they are a significant percentage of his rebounds and his game overall. Taking that away from him by playing him as an outside player (Which should never happen) would limit his effectiveness.

Odom: After averaging 8 boards per game for his first 2 seasons he averaged 6 and change. He has always averaged big minutes (35+ per game.) and was THE featured player when he was on the Clippers until Brand took his spot. He was always a low percentage shooter as well. I don't think he was good rebounder at all for the first 4-5 years of his career, especially considering his height, coordination, agility, and athletic ability. He's a volume guy, kind of like Antoine Walker.

I guess my real point is that Frye is not this horrible player he has been made out to be. Nor is he lazy. He has been producing better of late. He ain't perfect either. But he has some nice potential, and to write him off now would be a big mistake.

Can we at least agree that Frye has been played in a shooting guard like fashion, and that has been a major factor in what he does on the floor?

oohah

We agree that it has been a factor. And I certainly haven't written off Frye, although I'm concerned as to whether he can be a major piece here.

In terms of the impact of Lee being on the perimeter affecting his offensive rebounding, I disagree with the extent of that impact. You can start on the perimeter - whether you stay there for the course of the possession is variable. Whether you crash the boards before a shot is taken is variable. Whether you can beat your man backdoor to get position is variable. Whether you can read the trajectory of a long rebound is variable. I mean, we're arguing a very subtle distinction here - one that almost doesn't matter either way. An extra 0.8 offensive rebounds hasn't cost us too games. If you give Frye the same amount of offensive rebounds as last year, his play remains uninspired to me.

The thing is with the other rebounders (Odom, West, Marion) - they're all smaller than Frye. Odom may have had some lapses here and there, other players (like Marion) may have not. It comes down to expectations and I had hoped Frye would lose the "soft" label from college and really use his length. I'm a Frye fan. I expect better. Much better than what he's giving us. Is he struggling to adjust? I'm sure thats part of it. I just thought he'd do a better job adjusting. A better job shooting. A better job blocking shots.

Posted by oohah:



If you are the release man, you have to stay outside and be there for the post-man or driver to kick the ball to you. You don't start crashing the boards until the shot goes up.

The difference in Frye this year is not his offensive rebounding or his rebounding at all, it's the effectiveness of his scoring. The reason I think Lee or Balkman would be affected more is that their offense comes from rebounding and catching the ball close to the basket off of feeds from driving players or from a post player who is double teamed. I don't see that they have the J to fall back on to contribute if they are not doing what they do best.

Its not that simple. The "release man" has choices to make. You DO crash the boards if you read the play and believe that the shot will be taken earlier on the other side of the court. It depends on where the double on Eddy is coming from and the defensive rotation scheme. Shawn Marion does it frequently and successfully. And, again, lets not pretend that Frye is always in that position - there are a significant number of possessions in which he is not isolated on the arc.

The rebounding issue was one that I thought you were emphasizing, especially offensive rebounding. The rebounding has been has been consistenly average from last year, as I showed in the statistics. Shooting and shot-blocking have been my primary concerns. Has Frye been limited by the focus on Curry? Yes. But his shooting from the outside and his shot-blocking have still been sub-par relative to expectations. And, thus, he has underachieved. If he isn't underachieving and this is his current peak, I would be more concerned.

Posted by codeunknown:

Posted by nixluva:

Frye's skills are actually well fitted to what we're trying to run, but since Curry isn't yet the kind of passer that he should be, it limits the amount of effectiveness that the guys around him can have. I think there's plenty of room on this team for the different skills of Frye, Lee and Balkman. I actually see Frye crashing the boards a lot. He had a few chances to get a tip in that didn't go down, but he's often coming from much further out on the court than Lee or Balkman and he's NOWHERE NEAR as agile or quick as those guys. Which is why the Marion analogy is flawed.

Its not an analogy. Its an example of techniques that are used by Marion, Odom, West, Lafrentz and others in the league regardless of agility. If you think utilizing Frye as a spot-up shooter better fits his skill set, the you disagree with both Oohah and I. And you're really in a minority there.

Frye reads neither defensive rotations nor the shot clock very well and so, from what I see, he is standing out there more often than he should. There are occassional possessions where he grabs offensive rebounds (at a clip of 1.3 per game) but that doesn't mean he's exploiting possessions as often as he should.