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is isiah building this team towards a title?
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djsunyc
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bottom line when judging isiah thomas: do you feel this team is being built towards an nba title? if the answer is yes - then he stays. if the answer is no - then he goes. the ONLY objective should be building towards a title. not building to making the playoffs. not building to sell out the arena. but legitimately building a team to win a title.
yes
no
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kam77
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1/12/2007  11:55 AM
"i have some strong reservations based on how isiah got to this point (assets spent while sacrificing cap and future picks) as well as the assets needed to get those other pieces."

How would YOU have gotten to this point?

lol @ being BANNED by Martin since 11/07/10 (for asking if Mr. Earl had a point). Really, Martin? C'mon. This is the internet. I've seen much worse on this site. By Earl himself. Drop the hypocrisy.
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babyKnicks
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1/12/2007  11:58 AM
how long did you expect it to take?
Let's go Knicks. That's amare
SlimPack
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1/12/2007  12:03 PM
i voted no becuase I dont think thomas is building towards a title. but is it impossible to become a championship contender under isiah? if i had to guess i would say yes becuase of his seemingly very low propensity to assemble a team with parts that fit, and hiring an appropriate person to coach them. but i cant say for sure becuase i have no idea what isiah's plan is assuming he in fact has one.

but unlike djsunyc and his group, I dont think isiah should be fired right now just becuase he isnt building towards a championship. Im curious to see how far isiah can take this team, and if he seems to underacheive in taking this team to a championship level (sort of like how kiki was) he can simply be fired for a gm with better vision.

the reason i say this is two fold. one becuase I dont think keeping isiah longer will make it harder for the new gm to come in and make the changes he wants (although i can understand why some people would disagree). and 2, it shouldnt be very difficult for a new gm with a chapionship plan to come in and change the roster to one that has the potential to win a championship after isiah is fired. this is becuase if isiah does get fired, the roster will be alot better than it was after layden was fired, so this new gm should be able to turn the situation around in a season or two. sort of like how paxson did after krause.



[Edited by - slimpack on 01-12-2007 12:07 PM]
djsunyc
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1/12/2007  12:03 PM
Posted by kam77:

"i have some strong reservations based on how isiah got to this point (assets spent while sacrificing cap and future picks) as well as the assets needed to get those other pieces."

How would YOU have gotten to this point?

this would've been my method:

2004 #1 draft pick
2004 #2 draft pick
MLE on a young player
2005 #1 draft pick
2005 #2 draft pick
MLE on a young player
2006 #1 draft pick
2006 #2 draft pick
MLE on a young player

as well as 1 or 2 picks purchased here and there, shaking the bushes for jackie, qyntel, etc.

and you have a young talented squad with over $30 mil of cap room coming up this summer.

isiah is a VERY GOOD drafter. that can't be denied by anybody.

same # of young players. big difference is we have a WORLD of opportunity to land a big time stud with all that cap room. (i believe lebron, melo, wade, or bosh would've signed the 1 year qualifier to become a free agent this summer to come to ny.)

then AFTER you have the franchise stud, THEN start spending money to surround him with players to try to win a ring.
djsunyc
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1/12/2007  12:04 PM
Posted by babyKnicks:

how long did you expect it to take?

1 offseason.

we should've traded our entire team for shaq and kobe. but no, isiah had to be an idiot and trade for steph and penny instead. what a loser.
babyKnicks
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1/12/2007  12:05 PM
how long would that plan had taken to make us a contender? The entire team would be even younger than the one we have assembled.

It would resemble the current Sixers.

The next franchise stud is not available until 2010...and by then, we may have the cap room anyway.

What franchise stud is available and when will they become available?

i contend that both methods will get us to the same place in the same amount of time.

[Edited by - babyKnicks on 01-12-2007 12:06 PM]
Let's go Knicks. That's amare
babyKnicks
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1/12/2007  12:08 PM
i believe the vote will eventually be tilted back to no once the old school non posters post again based on emails sent by the negative squad.

but positive posters...revel while you can.

maybe someone will go out like bonn and change their vote based on "harassing the witness". (just jokes bonn, but hey, you did change your vote on a message board opinion poll that asks for your gut feelings)
Let's go Knicks. That's amare
SlimPack
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1/12/2007  12:15 PM
Posted by babyKnicks:


i contend that both methods will get us to the same place in the same amount of time.

[Edited by - babyKnicks on 01-12-2007 12:06 PM]

I think theres only one hope for isiah's method to lead to a championship. and thats to hire a coach like larry brown. with his drafting abilities, I wouldnt be suprised if isiah could assemble a team of "pretty good" players, but no franchise player. but the thing is, a team like that wouldnt be a chapmionship contendor unless it played near if not THE best defense in the league.
kam77
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1/12/2007  12:28 PM
2004 #1 draft pick -- We got Marbury instead. Kirk Snyder was picked here.
2004 #2 draft pick -- Wasn't this Trevor Ariza?
MLE on a young player -- No spending money!
2005 #1 draft pick -- Lee, Frye, N8: 3 picks is better than one
2005 #2 draft pick -- see above
MLE on a young player -- No spending money!
2006 #1 draft pick -- Tyrus Thomas
2006 #2 draft pick -- Reynaldo Balkman
MLE on a young player -- No spending money!

So just to go on record, you would have rather had Ty Thomas, maybe if we win the lottery, get a guy like Bogut last year (but not Frye, Lee or N8) and Kirk Snyder or whoever else in the 10-15 range of that draft. Instead of Curry, Marbury, and the three 2nd year guys?

Ty Thomas, maybe Andrew Bogut, Kirk Snyder, flirting around the cap NEXT year, and our own #1 pick we don't have to swap out. Ok so this team is young and has a decent financial outlook. Not a bad rebuild. But also, not a more talented team than the one we have today and all the pressure would be on our #1 picks. Thats a recipe for a team with no veteran leadership no matter who we selected with the benefit of 20/20 hindsight.

But i'll give you that its a different approach that could also be successful. I don't know if it leads us any closer to the championship any faster though to make such a big fuss about.
lol @ being BANNED by Martin since 11/07/10 (for asking if Mr. Earl had a point). Really, Martin? C'mon. This is the internet. I've seen much worse on this site. By Earl himself. Drop the hypocrisy.
djsunyc
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1/12/2007  12:56 PM
Posted by kam77:

2004 #1 draft pick -- We got Marbury instead. Kirk Snyder was picked here.
2004 #2 draft pick -- Wasn't this Trevor Ariza?
MLE on a young player -- No spending money!
2005 #1 draft pick -- Lee, Frye, N8: 3 picks is better than one
2005 #2 draft pick -- see above
MLE on a young player -- No spending money!
2006 #1 draft pick -- Tyrus Thomas
2006 #2 draft pick -- Reynaldo Balkman
MLE on a young player -- No spending money!

So just to go on record, you would have rather had Ty Thomas, maybe if we win the lottery, get a guy like Bogut last year (but not Frye, Lee or N8) and Kirk Snyder or whoever else in the 10-15 range of that draft. Instead of Curry, Marbury, and the three 2nd year guys?

Ty Thomas, maybe Andrew Bogut, Kirk Snyder, flirting around the cap NEXT year, and our own #1 pick we don't have to swap out. Ok so this team is young and has a decent financial outlook. Not a bad rebuild. But also, not a more talented team than the one we have today and all the pressure would be on our #1 picks. Thats a recipe for a team with no veteran leadership no matter who we selected with the benefit of 20/20 hindsight.

But i'll give you that its a different approach that could also be successful. I don't know if it leads us any closer to the championship any faster though to make such a big fuss about.

you can't go by that. we have no idea who isiah would've drafted or where we would've picked. in 2004, we could've easily kept losing and ended up with the #7 pick and taken deng.

it's more a philosophy. but i would've geared the draft towards a little more of a defensive mindset.

and our 2006 #1 draft pick didn't have to be ty thomas. again, we don't know where we'd pick but let's say we took rudy gay or broy? we wouldn't have had marbury or crawford. or maybe in 2005 we trade up to nab felton or deron?
babyKnicks
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1/12/2007  12:59 PM
Posted by djsunyc:


it's more a philosophy. but i would've geared the draft towards a little more of a defensive mindset.

that's the entire point, the amount of negativity surrounding the Zeke way of doing it is what's so perplexing.

Zeke's way, it's championship or failure.

The draft only way, it's "well, we tried"
Let's go Knicks. That's amare
djsunyc
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1/12/2007  1:04 PM
Posted by babyKnicks:
Posted by djsunyc:


it's more a philosophy. but i would've geared the draft towards a little more of a defensive mindset.

that's the entire point, the amount of negativity surrounding the Zeke way of doing it is what's so perplexing.

Zeke's way, it's championship or failure.

The draft only way, it's "well, we tried"

there are some common components for teams that have played for championships:

1. franchise stud
2. interior defense
3. smart guard play
4. luck

the question is do we have long term solutions at either of the top 3 components?

#1 do we have one in the midst or do we have the means of getting one?
#2 will frye/curry get that much better defensively to compete at the highest level?
#3 who is our point guard for next 7 years? how about starting sg?
kam77
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1/12/2007  1:34 PM
If this alternate knick world of yours djsu involves us tanking, getting lucky, always making the best pick and having top 5 picks every year then yeah, I'll give you Loul Deng, Brandon Roy, and Chris Paul.

Now which plan requires more luck? And three years of putrid basketball and empty seats as backup guys like McDyess and Kurt Thomas are our starting midget Frontcourt.

If you maintain that team would've been good enough to attract a marquee Free Agent i have a bridge to sell ya.
lol @ being BANNED by Martin since 11/07/10 (for asking if Mr. Earl had a point). Really, Martin? C'mon. This is the internet. I've seen much worse on this site. By Earl himself. Drop the hypocrisy.
djsunyc
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1/12/2007  1:35 PM
Posted by kam77:

If this alternate knick world of yours djsu involves us tanking, getting lucky, always making the best pick and having top 5 picks every year then yeah, I'll give you Loul Deng, Brandon Roy, and Chris Paul.

Now which plan requires more luck? And three years of putrid basketball and empty seats as backup guys like McDyess and Kurt Thomas are our starting midget Frontcourt.

If you maintain that team would've been good enough to attract a marquee Free Agent i have a bridge to sell ya.

yes, and isiah's methods have produced SPECTACULAR results thus far.
kam77
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1/12/2007  1:38 PM
Remember the team in 2002-2003... perpetual 8th or 9th draft picks. Good enough to be better than the bottom feeders, bad enough to miss the playoffs. No chance for growth.

Unless we straight out went into dump mode (good luck with that idea in MSG) there was no way were were poor enough to be selecting during picks 1-5.

lol @ being BANNED by Martin since 11/07/10 (for asking if Mr. Earl had a point). Really, Martin? C'mon. This is the internet. I've seen much worse on this site. By Earl himself. Drop the hypocrisy.
kam77
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1/12/2007  1:43 PM
"yes, and isiah's methods have produced SPECTACULAR results thus far."

By seasons end we should be decent.

Spectacular will have to wait. Your approach to building a winner might have worked as well. I just don't think that was a realistic option in 2003 after 17 straight playoff appearances. Otherwise the brass keeps Layden and just hires Isiah as a scout.
lol @ being BANNED by Martin since 11/07/10 (for asking if Mr. Earl had a point). Really, Martin? C'mon. This is the internet. I've seen much worse on this site. By Earl himself. Drop the hypocrisy.
djsunyc
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1/12/2007  1:46 PM
Posted by kam77:

Remember the team in 2002-2003... perpetual 8th or 9th draft picks. Good enough to be better than the bottom feeders, bad enough to miss the playoffs. No chance for growth.

Unless we straight out went into dump mode (good luck with that idea in MSG) there was no way were were poor enough to be selecting during picks 1-5.

kam, this is not an easy discussion to have b/c having the benefit of hindsight is both a good thing and a bad thing. how do you know we'd be perpetual 8th or 9th draft picks? what if we dumped kurt for an expiring and a pick. that would make us a worse team but that would've given us a higher seeding, no?

i just feel that the way i would've done things would've been a better route. but those are just my feelings on the matter.

there are no guarantees in anything. ask boston who had the worst team but lost the lottery to the spurs in 97. luck plays a big part of it. luck got us ewing and we still weren't able to win a title. but at least we were competing for one many times.

and when isiah got here, many (outside of isles) were excited to see what he was going to do. it wasn't until midway through 04/05 (when he acquired mo and malik) did we realize he may not be the right guy.

i feel isiah has pushed back the process about 2 more years than it needed to go.

so please, don't say stuff like "alternate knicks world" or "i have a bridge to sell ya" b/c they don't translate well on posts.
sebstar
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1/12/2007  2:08 PM
Posted by Bippity10:

DJ don't sweat it. Some are just very sensitive to anything that could possibly have a negative answer. Good poll.

I think the next moves will say a lot. If we bring in players that compliment curry than the answer is yes. If we target big money guys like francis etc to help make the playoffs today then it will show you that in 7 years nothing has changed. Especially if they take minutes from our young guys.

I thought the 2006 off-season was telling. Instead of rounding up all his young assets and making a play for a veteran, he held firm with the current roster. Did what was in the best interest of the organization and it could be a sign that he is learning from his previous missteps.
Heat had a young all star in Lamar Odom, a lottery pick in Caron Butler and a first rd pick to go with the cap space that enable them to sign and trade for Shaq. Wade was a high lottery pick.

The Spurs were one of the top teams with Robinson. He goes down for a season and they do the right thing and tank. They luck out and get Duncan, a number one overall pick.

lol @ this. You're not even trying.
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martin
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1/12/2007  2:17 PM
Posted by sebstar:
Posted by Bippity10:

DJ don't sweat it. Some are just very sensitive to anything that could possibly have a negative answer. Good poll.

I think the next moves will say a lot. If we bring in players that compliment curry than the answer is yes. If we target big money guys like francis etc to help make the playoffs today then it will show you that in 7 years nothing has changed. Especially if they take minutes from our young guys.

I thought the 2006 off-season was telling. Instead of rounding up all his young assets and making a play for a veteran, he held firm with the current roster. Did what was in the best interest of the organization and it could be a sign that he is learning from his previous missteps.
Heat had a young all star in Lamar Odom, a lottery pick in Caron Butler and a first rd pick to go with the cap space that enable them to sign and trade for Shaq. Wade was a high lottery pick.

The Spurs were one of the top teams with Robinson. He goes down for a season and they do the right thing and tank. They luck out and get Duncan, a number one overall pick.

lol @ this. You're not even trying.

actually, you are not trying. Isiah bought out MoT and Jalen... there is much reasoning to suspect that he did both or at least one because Dolan told him he could not make any trades.
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GoNyGoNyGo
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1/12/2007  2:23 PM
Yes.

NY still needs that one guy who will be the glue, but I think they are well on their way. Much better off than when IT got here.

We are so spoiled. Much like we want everything to be done in the time of a TV show, war etc, the same is true for sports. It takes time and it takes gambles. Some pay off, some don't.

As for the Fatone and the Idiot, they are so full of themselves. They NEVER admit a mistake or that they were wrong. I hope IT wins a ring, so he can shove it in MADDOG's face!

And I listen to them all the time. I just think they are too full of themselves.

They were ripping Beckahm today and they have never even watched a soccer game. F them!
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