Posted by holfresh:



For 9 years they use the cap and draft strategy to get back to the championship and it didn't work...Your time line probably began when Penny was traded but they entire world knew that Penny alone wasn't winning one for you...To say they tried to build around Penny and win now I think is wrong...

Sure you can say Orlando and the others are on better footing..But as a Knick fan, will you be willing to post good things in these forum for 9 years with no hopes of a Championship for the chance to land someone like D Howard??...I'll take my chances with Curry...



[Edited by - holfresh on 01-05-2007 6:55 PM]

no, the nine year thing is wrong. my time line started when they loss shaq to free agency. the magic didnt start to rebuild after they lost shaq.

In fact the season after they lost him, they won 45 games thanks to hardaway and newly signed FA rony seikaly. in addition to that, they even almost upset the top seeded miami heat as an eigth seed by taking them to a decisive game 5. the season after that they only won 41 games and missed the playoffs becuase of hardaways injury and some other problems. but that offseason they signed some more free agents and during that season acquired NBA great Dominique Wilkins, along with his brother gerald wilkens, who, despite being past their primes, were still very good players. as a result, the magic finished tied with the heat for the best record in the east with 33 wins. (that season was shortened that year due to a lockout). but as you should already know the magic didnt win the east that year, in fact the magic got upset by the 6th seeded sixers in the first round. it was only after that that the magic started to rebuild by trading penny to the suns for second year player pat garrity and some draft picks.

as a result of that rebuilding after just 1 season they wound up with tmac and tried to win with him. but that didnt work out and only lasted 4 seasons. the 4th season is the one where they were horrible and traded mac for franchise, and drafted d12. then they started to rebuild again.

so as you can see the magic actually started and finished a rebuilding process between the time shaq left, and the time they drafted dwight howard. a process that didnt even begin as soon as shaq left. so thats why the nine years thing is wrong. (by the way, very little of this is from my own common knowledge, i had to go to wikipedia.com to look this stuff up)

but ultimately the thing that we're talking about here is the reliability of the rebuilding strategy. I think your selling rebuilding short. I also think that your wrong when you say that it usually takes teams years and years of losing before they wind up with anything good when they rebuild. from what I know, as long as the team is actually rebuilding to win, and does it correctly. it can work moderately quickly.

oh and one last thing. eddy curry is not a franchise player. in terms of a championshiop caliber team curry is a robin, not a batman. if this were last year I wouldnt even have said that much but in light of his recent improvements I think he has earned that label. Curry is like rashard lewis. he's pretty good, but he isn't great. of course rashard puts up better overall numbers than curry is right now but he's also older and more developed, so I think the comparison is valid. curry is just too one dimensional imo to be someone you build around. not that he can't be a peice.

Posted by bettalaylow:

Toronto's supporting cast is clearly worse than the Knicks. Bargnani is still a kid and not yet an impact in the games. TJ Ford over Marbury? Aside from Marbury's attitude problems, there's no question that Marbs is better. Toronto has a weak team aside from Bosh. Remove Bosh, they'd win somewhere around 12 games. Remove Curry and I think the Knicks would still win at least 25.

I couldn't disagree more with your statement about Toronto. TJ Ford is one of the better young point guards in this league. Probably the best behind the guy named Chris Paul. 16 points and 8 assists his shooting percentage this year is up to 45 so that ain't bad either. Whether we want to admit it or not Marbs best years are behind him. His body has taken too much of a beating over the years and he's lost a major component of his game: his explosiveness. So this isn't even about his attitude problems but rather his age and the miles put on his body. Not to mention TJ is about 10 years younger. Let me preface my next point about the rest of the Raptors team. I'm not pointing anyone out but I think there is a general bias against foreign players. It really took Dirk beating the Spurs before he got some real respect though his team has consistently won 50 games. He' still not really menioned as one of the best after all the numbers he's put up consistently throughout his career just to show as example. Getting to the Raptors Andrea Bargnani is improving steadily he may turn out to be average or he could very well turn out to be a very similar player to Dirk which is certaintly not a bad thing. Than you have Jorge Garbajosa who can shoot from all over the floor and has the height. Than you have a back-up of Jose Calderon. This team has some good shooters and some talented guys offensively. When you have guys who can play and shoot from the premieter coupled with a serious down low threat that team can be very dangerous. If they can stay healthy througout the 2nd half of the season they could make a run for a playoff berth. Or next season they could this year's Orlando team. I would not dismiss them the way people do. If you have a great big man with a great true point guard right there is a major building block. You could be looking at the reincarnation of KG/Marbs.

I think our guard play will be the ultimate undoing of this team if it stays the same and our softness down low. Too many guys on this team are one dimensional, erratic, poor leaders, and questionable defenders. Our guard play is just not promising for the future. Marbury like I said his best years are gone. Crawford is entirely too erratic and had a chance to cultivate his game but with Isiah its just business as usual. Nate even if he wasn't such a knucklehead he's way too undersized and selfish to start in this league.


Oh and I think if you remove Curry from this year's team we'd only be flirting with 10 wins as opposed to 14 wins right now. Just by his sheer numbers if nothing else.

Do you think the ultimate decision to break it down and get under the cap,get to the lottery,to acquire such a player is Isiah's decision to make?

Dolan I think trusts Isiah and has given thus far carte blanche to do as he sees fit for this team. So yes I do think the decision rests solely at Isiah's feet.

LOL...

Marbury just turned 30

TJ ford is 23 and will be 24 in a couple of months.. But since stretching the truth seems to support your argument much better, why not go for 20. we will say marbury is 20 years older than ford... Sounds even better doesn't it?

LOL...

Marbury just turned 30

TJ ford is 23 and will be 24 in a couple of months.. But since stretching the truth seems to support your argument much better, why not go for 20. we will say marbury is 20 years older than ford... Sounds even better doesn't it?

Whatever he's better than Marbury and younger period. Look at his numbers look at Marbs right now but I guess we can just discuss their age differences instead. Since you missed I was speaking with exaggeration but really I was just making the point of one guy being younger whereas the other guy's best years are behind him.

Orlando did a great job post Shaq. They kept their roster thin and were set to build around Hill and McGrady. There's bad planning (Isiah) and bad luck. If Hill and McGrady stayed healthy (no reason to think they wouldnt) the Magic are quickly an elite team AGAIN.

Bad example

Curry keeps getting better...

Posted by holfresh:

Posted by newyorknewyork:

explain how you sign a guy that avg 1 pt and 2 reb a game and present this as your starting center?

Easy! you contact his agent. Offer him money that is more than any other team is willing to offer. And then have a press confrence to inform the world.

In all seriousness. Which center are you refering to?

Diop...avg 1 pt and 2 reb his free agent year....Hunter was good with PHX but wasn't a starter and too skinny to man the middle...



[Edited by - holfresh on 01-05-2007 6:08 PM]

Holfresh let me ask you a question. Would your rather have a 22yr old Diop at 1pt 2rebs a game for the contract of 2mil per yr for 2-3yrs? Or would you rather have 30yr old James at 4pts 3rebs for 5mil a yr for 5yrs?

To me its common sense. You go after Diop and the cheaper contract. Worse case senario you start Frye at center. But reguardless of that. Diop is minimal risk because of the shorter contract but possible very good reward. James risk is plentyfull, and the reward is very unlikley. Diop does work out you only eat 6mil. James doesn't work out you eat 25mil. Diop also had better chance to become a better player since he is so young. James was 30yrs old and was known to be a very lazy player. Yes we needed size and a starting calibre center. But if James was the most talented available then you go for less and hold out for something better.

Now lest look at what happend. James is not in shape which he was known to be. We are probably going to buy him out after this yr and eat 25mil. He has played 58 games out of 118 averaging 8mins, 3pts 1.6rebs. Diop mean while for his price if providing Dallas valuable mins and is helping them be a better defensive team. So exactly what the consiquence was is what happend.

Its common sense, and I will allways have a hard time understanding that signing.

Posted by SlimPack:

Posted by holfresh:



For 9 years they use the cap and draft strategy to get back to the championship and it didn't work...Your time line probably began when Penny was traded but they entire world knew that Penny alone wasn't winning one for you...To say they tried to build around Penny and win now I think is wrong...

Sure you can say Orlando and the others are on better footing..But as a Knick fan, will you be willing to post good things in these forum for 9 years with no hopes of a Championship for the chance to land someone like D Howard??...I'll take my chances with Curry...



[Edited by - holfresh on 01-05-2007 6:55 PM]

no, the nine year thing is wrong. my time line started when they loss shaq to free agency. the magic didnt start to rebuild after they lost shaq.

In fact the season after they lost him, they won 45 games thanks to hardaway and newly signed FA rony seikaly. in addition to that, they even almost upset the top seeded miami heat as an eigth seed by taking them to a decisive game 5. the season after that they only won 41 games and missed the playoffs becuase of hardaways injury and some other problems. but that offseason they signed some more free agents and during that season acquired NBA great Dominique Wilkins, along with his brother gerald wilkens, who, despite being past their primes, were still very good players. as a result, the magic finished tied with the heat for the best record in the east with 33 wins. (that season was shortened that year due to a lockout). but as you should already know the magic didnt win the east that year, in fact the magic got upset by the 6th seeded sixers in the first round. it was only after that that the magic started to rebuild by trading penny to the suns for second year player pat garrity and some draft picks.

as a result of that rebuilding after just 1 season they wound up with tmac and tried to win with him. but that didnt work out and only lasted 4 seasons. the 4th season is the one where they were horrible and traded mac for franchise, and drafted d12. then they started to rebuild again.

so as you can see the magic actually started and finished a rebuilding process between the time shaq left, and the time they drafted dwight howard. a process that didnt even begin as soon as shaq left. so thats why the nine years thing is wrong. (by the way, very little of this is from my own common knowledge, i had to go to wikipedia.com to look this stuff up)

but ultimately the thing that we're talking about here is the reliability of the rebuilding strategy. I think your selling rebuilding short. I also think that your wrong when you say that it usually takes teams years and years of losing before they wind up with anything good when they rebuild. from what I know, as long as the team is actually rebuilding to win, and does it correctly. it can work moderately quickly.

oh and one last thing. eddy curry is not a franchise player. in terms of a championshiop caliber team curry is a robin, not a batman. if this were last year I wouldnt even have said that much but in light of his recent improvements I think he has earned that label. Curry is like rashard lewis. he's pretty good, but he isn't great. of course rashard puts up better overall numbers than curry is right now but he's also older and more developed, so I think the comparison is valid. curry is just too one dimensional imo to be someone you build around. not that he can't be a peice.

Sorry I took so long bro...But let's say you are right that Orlando thought they had a chance featuring Penny...Penny left after the '99 season...It will probably take them 10 years after they came to the realization that it wasn't working for them to find another player to compete at that level again...My point isn't against breaking it down start again...It's not the Holy Grail...Because you break it down and get under the cap..It does not mean success...Frankly waitng 10 years for me to be happy about my chances is way too long in my estimation...I'm not sure you can do that in NY...

On Curry, he may not be a franchise player, but someone needs to give him an Academy Award, Golden Globe or something..There are lots of nights that number 34 is acting like one...

Posted by holfresh:

Sorry I took so long bro...But let's say you are right that Orlando thought they had a chance featuring Penny...Penny left after the '99 season...It will probably take them 10 years after they came to the realization that it wasn't working for them to find another player to compete at that level again...My point isn't against breaking it down start again...It's not the Holy Grail...Because you break it down and get under the cap..It does not mean success...Frankly waitng 10 years for me to be happy about my chances is way too long in my estimation...I'm not sure you can do that in NY...

On Curry, he may not be a franchise player, but someone needs to give him an Academy Award, Golden Globe or something..There are lots of nights that number 34 is acting like one...

yeah I know its not a garaunteed strategy. I just think it would work out better than isiah's plan right now. even in the example i cited with orlando when they rebuilt the first time it didnt bring them a championship. in fact they didnt even get out of the first round. but as lack luster as that is, thats still better than our situation imo.

and I still dont think it would take THAT long for the knicks to get better than they are now if they started to rebuild (a tradition rebuild, not the "isiah" version of rebuilding). really, it only took orlando 1 season to acquire tracy mcgrady after they traded penny, and they got dwight the same season they tmac and hill stunk it up. maybe they got lucky. but I think you overblow it when you say 10 years.

Posted by SlimPack:

Posted by holfresh:

You see the money doesn't matter because we were and is still in cap hell...We are over 100 mil...doesn't matter if it's 106 mil for 110 mil....We are over, large....You may not believe this but JJ was a stud in the playoffs for Seattle...I mean with the vision of hindsight, everyone would be a great GM...He had a monster playoff series...How can you justify not signing the best player available for someone like Diop...

I don't agree about james' contract not making a difference. it'll be harder for the knicks to get under the cap in the 2010 offseason (when marbs and francis expire) becuase jerome's contract extends beyond that time. One doesnt need hindsight to know james was a bad signing. it was considered the worse move of that offseason by espn that offseason. (I can remember skip bayless laughing on cold pizza the mourning the signing was announced, saying that the knicks need a new GM more than they need a new center, even woody page didnt like it).

jerome james didnt even play that well that offseason. his best games were against a sacremento team that he held a grudge against, and had brad miller as the center fresh from a leg injury. he even wore a cast on it during the series. his numbers in the next series against the spurs were worse. and of course he only did that for one off season, which non coincidentally was in his contract year. in his 4 years in the nba up until that playoff series, he was averaging something like 5pts, 3.5rebs, and 1blk in 16 minutes. the reason he didnt play more is becuase he was always out of shape.

the point is, signing james to his current contract wasnt a good idea even at the time it happened. zaza pachulia was signed that offseason for less and puts up better numbers. even dan gadzuric who was a free agent that summer would have been better. so would desagana diop for that matter but I dont think isiah was rebuilding at that point in time so perhaps a young player like him was out of the question. either way isiah shouldnt get a pass for the james signing.




[Edited by - Slimpack on 01-07-2007 4:36 PM]

First off Skip Bayless is clueless...Second, the Knicks will be under the cap even with Jerome's contact if things remain the same..Listen, I'm not giving Isiah a pass, it wasn't a good signing at all but to kill him in hindsight when the Knicks no one to play the position, I can't do that...I really can't run off names that could of been better after waiting a few years to see how things turn out..Isiah didn't have that benefit...

Posted by PhilinLA:

Curry keeps getting better...

you can say that again.