Posted by fishmike:

Tell me what guarantee did we have that this team would be in better shape right now if we did things differently? Is the example of Chicago or Boston proof that you always turnout better if you just back up the truck and rebuild from scratch? That doesn't always work, as there are MANY teams in the NBA with cap room and many years of high draft picks and they STILL haven't won a championship.

asking for guarentee's in sports is silly so lets try and stick to something we can measure. How about this... how about you show me one team that got out of a lottery hole by trading away lottery picks and stockpiling long contracts attached to players essentially cast off from other teams? I can show you tons of examples of teams that built through the draft and by dumping bad contracts. Show me ONE team thats ever built by trading away picks and taking on big long term deals.

Isiah is stupid. He runs the Knicks like its fantasy sports.

Does the way Dallas was built fit into your profile? How about Detroit? How about Miami? That's 3 of the last 4 finalists and two of the last three champions.

Now, how about a team that always has a lot of high picks and cap room like the Hawks or the Warriors?

There's no one way to build a winning team. We have plenty of talent here. I can't wait to see what it looks like when there's a set rotation and a game plan this season.

Posted by fishmike:

when did Dallas, Mia or Detroit trade away lottery picks? When they were in the lottery when what large long term contracts did they take on?
Dallas did the opposite of us.. they traded Jamison for a lottery pick that wasnt expected to help them that year. Dallas has added a lot of fat contracts but only after Nash/Finley/Dirk were in place. How were those players aquired? How was Wade aquired?

Keep dreaming if you think you can come up with anything close to Isiah's model thats produced a winning franchise. All those teams were patient and didnt make deals that comprimised their flexibility or ability to make future moves. Good teams try to dump bad contracts, good teams sign young guys with upside, not Jerome to 5 years only to watch Butler go to SA for half his price. Good teams dont take on a longer contract in Mo T, who plays the same position as a bunch of other guys on the roster, throw in a pick, pay an extra $15mm, then look to buy that player out. Good teams dont trade for max players with bad reps playing the same position as their current best player. I mean we can go on with this for hours. Its pointless... Isiah has no plan, and never has.

the only reason you can say Isiah "traded away lottery picks" is because Larry Brown tanked the season last year. Dallas traded a lotto pick to get Dirk Nowitzki and didn't freak out when it didn't work immediately, Detroit didn't trade any lotto picks, but they didn't really use any in the draft either, except Darko who they gave away and they also didn't really ever use cap room. I'm just saying there is no model. and the real reason some here are freaking out - losing the no.2 pick in the draft and having an embarassing season lies completely on Brown's shoulders. Isiah gets the blame because it was a bad season, Brown is still a hero. would Isiah have gotten the credit if the Knicks did well? Not as much as Brownie. pretty sweet deal for one of the worst coaching jobs I've ever witnessed. actually, the single worst.

I will keep dreaming, I guess. I dreamed and dreamed for Larry Brown to be fired, and that worked.

it's funny, Fish, because the thing you preach is teams being patient - doesn't being patient with young players come from a fan prospective too? if Curry and Frye can't do much better under a stable environment, then I will question the team's direction.

[Edited by - crzymdups on 26-09-2006 4:13 PM]

Posted by fishmike:

Dirk was a lottery pick, so that hardly counts. The only thing that blows me away is that you think a stable environment starts with Larry's departure and not Isiahs. Thats a head scratcher.

When a coach has a team playing well, and asks a GM not to trade a couple of key guys as they start a stretch to make the playoffs and that GM does thats NOT a stable environment. Ask Lenny.

Ask good professionals like McDyess, Kurt, Shandon and Mutumbo about Isiah's stable environment. Please

The only consistant thing with Isiah's regime is losing, change and excuses.

Curry was a higher lottery pick than Dirk and you're basing the trade's failure completely on its performance after one year under one very bad coach. I am willing to wait on Curry. This is isn't a Kwame Brown situation - this is a kid who has shown that he can be the most dominant player on the court for short periods. He needs conditioning and work on defense, but I think a zone will help him on the latter. I'm interested to hear that he's been working out in Chicago all summer and playing hoops all summer. If Curry fails this year I will start to doubt him, but I am willing to see what he looks like A) in his second year away from home vs his first, B) after a summer of training vs a summer of legal battles and C) with a coach who is trying to win games.

I don't hold much stock in what Dyess, Kurt, Shandon had to say - they went from a losing team to pretty much the top three teams in the league - DET, PHX, MIA. yeah, I imagine the environment would be a little better there. Dyess was here for what two weeks with Zeke? Kurt has the Marbury rift and he also went to play with the best PG in the game. Shandon is still bitter that he was benched. There would be a pretty major problem if the environment was rosy here with a terrible record.

The stability with Isiah over Brown starts with the rotation, guys knowing their roles, guys talking, guys having a plan, guys not being admonished for playing with enthusiasm. If you don't believe it will happen, that's fine. Thankfully this fricking off-season is almost over and the time for conjecture will end and we'll get to see with our own eyes just what kind of job Larry Brown did last year and how it's different from what Isiah will do.