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800 pound gorilla thread: LB case to be decided:
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BlueSeats
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9/19/2006  11:04 PM
Posted by Nalod:
Posted by BlueSeats:

^ hoss lives in Marbury's world, where championships are easy to come by... for everyone else. And for those without... a career of 60 wins seasons is the same as 23 win seasons.

That's why Marbury is a great player and this team is poised for success, even when it loses.

when you cut open 60 win season and no championship, its the same as a 23 win season.



Right.

That's why Dolan feels justified in charging $200 for seats that others sell for $14.98





[Edited by - blueSeats on 09-19-2006 11:07 PM]
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oohah
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9/20/2006  7:20 AM
Posted by Nalod:
Posted by BlueSeats:

^ hoss lives in Marbury's world, where championships are easy to come by... for everyone else. And for those without... a career of 60 wins seasons is the same as 23 win seasons.

That's why Marbury is a great player and this team is poised for success, even when it loses.


when you cut open 60 win season and no championship, its the same as a 23 win season.



Ahhh...I see, so will you defend the 60 win coach the same way you did the 23 win coach, whoever he might be?

oohah

Good luck Mike D'Antoni, 'cause you ain't never seen nothing like this before!
fishmike
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9/20/2006  7:26 AM
Posted by nyk4ever:
Posted by 4949:


Larry coaching to lose is rediculous! Larry was trying to get control' of his team and that's all it was. All they had to do is get out there and do what he wanted, but starbury led the way in the attitude problem this team developed towards the end of the season. The way Larry coaches is his style, love it or not, was the way we should have went. I hope he coaches again and proves once again his methods and what the Knicks lost out on.

Good post, I agree 100% but everyone here already knew that anyway.
Larry should never have asked that group to share the ball or move their feet on defense. That alone was sabotaging the season

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TheGame
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9/20/2006  8:56 AM
Originally posted by 4949:

Larry coaching to lose is rediculous! Larry was trying to get control' of his team and that's all it was. All they had to do is get out there and do what he wanted, but starbury led the way in the attitude problem this team developed towards the end of the season. The way Larry coaches is his style, love it or not, was the way we should have went. I hope he coaches again and proves once again his methods and what the Knicks lost out on.

I don't know if Larry was intentionally trying to lose games (although I am not convinced he wasn't), but it is clear he made several unbelievably bad decisions. He failed to establish a rotation that would give the team stability and the players defined roles. He inexplicably pulled the rookies at times when it was clear to all that they were performing better on the court. He tried to play M. Rose as a small forward even though he was ill-suited to the role both offensively and defensively. He decided to attack Marbury, or all people, in the press, a move every other person in the world knew was going to backfire and blowup in his face. Whether he did these things to purposely lose games in an attempt to get IT fired and gain power or whether it was part of some master plan than none of us are smart enough to understand, the bottom line is that the guy was a terrible coach for us last year.

Moreover, I disagree with the team revolted so it was not Larry's fault argument. IT made it very clear to the players at the beginning of the season that Larry was in control, and these players came into camp willing to do what Larry wanted. The loses mounted under Larry's system and ever-changing lineups, and rather than attempt to rally the team, Larry started to sell his players out in the media. Even then the players attempted to continue to follow the guy, but he did not do anything to create any sense of stability in the team. The revolt occurred, to the extent there was one, at the end of the season when everything was already out of control. The simple fact of the matter is that, if the coach is not going to be loyal to the players, the players are not going to be loyal to the coach. Larry showed his true colors and the players reacted accordingly.
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joec32033
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9/20/2006  9:12 AM
Larry showed his true colors and the players reacted accordingly.

If this is the whole point you are trying to make, Larry showed his true colors for 30 years. Same act different teams.

I can't decide whether it was arrogance or stupidity that made Dolan and Isiah think that LB would change his way of doing things(which happen to be very successful) for them.

Larry is an anal, stodgy, old bastard. Not one person has ever denied that. His true colors are out there, and have been for a while. Everyone thought these players were tough enough and committed enou to be winners. Apparently they weren't.

Maybe it was the players who showed their true colors.

[Edited by - joec32033 on 09-20-2006 09:13 AM]
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buddapaw
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9/20/2006  9:37 AM
Posted by joec32033:
Larry showed his true colors and the players reacted accordingly.

If this is the whole point you are trying to make, Larry showed his true colors for 30 years. Same act different teams.

I can't decide whether it was arrogance or stupidity that made Dolan and Isiah think that LB would change his way of doing things(which happen to be very successful) for them.

Larry is an anal, stodgy, old bastard. Not one person has ever denied that. His true colors are out there, and have been for a while. Everyone thought these players were tough enough and committed enou to be winners. Apparently they weren't.

Maybe it was the players who showed their true colors.

[Edited by - joec32033 on 09-20-2006 09:13 AM]


Of his 30 years he has never done anything like this. Why now? Is it the bright lights of NYC? He wanted players to play with consistency and never gave them consistent minutes. He wanted players to earn their time on the court, then when they do perform they can be inactive the next game. Please do tell what was his reasoning, what the hell was going on in Larry's head. How making an adjustment during the year did he do that? Yes he will get his money, but he as sure as hell doesn't deserve it. Yeah the Dolan and IT team makes everyone sick, but this team was in essence rebuilding so why were the old farts playing who are not the future of the team. We needed to give our rooks time to develop we were already losing so why not give them a major share of the minutes. After the all-star break when Nate won the Slam Dunk thingy why was he inactive, Larry preached pressure the ball and playing defence this is what Nate gives you. I think it was Larry's way to show Nate that he was the star in this town. I blame Dolan and IT for hiring Larry Brown, they knew what kind of snake he was and probably made stipulations in his contract, but if it crawls like a snake, looks like a snake well it must be a snake. Again you can't publicly bash players constantly(note I said constantly because you can use the media to light a fire under a players ass occasionally) and expect them to run through walls for you.
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joec32033
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9/20/2006  10:29 AM
Posted by buddapaw:
Posted by joec32033:
Larry showed his true colors and the players reacted accordingly.

If this is the whole point you are trying to make, Larry showed his true colors for 30 years. Same act different teams.

I can't decide whether it was arrogance or stupidity that made Dolan and Isiah think that LB would change his way of doing things(which happen to be very successful) for them.

Larry is an anal, stodgy, old bastard. Not one person has ever denied that. His true colors are out there, and have been for a while. Everyone thought these players were tough enough and committed enou to be winners. Apparently they weren't.

Maybe it was the players who showed their true colors.

[Edited by - joec32033 on 09-20-2006 09:13 AM]


Of his 30 years he has never done anything like this. Why now? Is it the bright lights of NYC? He wanted players to play with consistency and never gave them consistent minutes. He wanted players to earn their time on the court, then when they do perform they can be inactive the next game. Please do tell what was his reasoning, what the hell was going on in Larry's head. How making an adjustment during the year did he do that? Yes he will get his money, but he as sure as hell doesn't deserve it. Yeah the Dolan and IT team makes everyone sick, but this team was in essence rebuilding so why were the old farts playing who are not the future of the team. We needed to give our rooks time to develop we were already losing so why not give them a major share of the minutes. After the all-star break when Nate won the Slam Dunk thingy why was he inactive, Larry preached pressure the ball and playing defence this is what Nate gives you. I think it was Larry's way to show Nate that he was the star in this town. I blame Dolan and IT for hiring Larry Brown, they knew what kind of snake he was and probably made stipulations in his contract, but if it crawls like a snake, looks like a snake well it must be a snake. Again you can't publicly bash players constantly(note I said constantly because you can use the media to light a fire under a players ass occasionally) and expect them to run through walls for you.

Huh? Never pulled anything like this before? Are you kidding?

His showdown with Iverson for six years? Wanting to David Robinson? Begging to have Mark Jackson traded then begging to get him back in Indiana? The crap with Darko? The way he exits everywhere he goes? The reason he never stays anywhere is he is too abrasive and anal and player get tired of it-that is his rep, right? All the crap he pulled with Detroit to get out of there? You remember how he didn't play Dalembert consistently(if at all) in Philly? Everywhere he is the players hate him and everywhere he was they talk about him like dear old Grandpa who was the most influential guy in their lives? And it's not just role players like McKey or Snow it STARS like Miller and Iverson and Rasheed and Billiups...How demanding he is on PG's and how much they hate it? Then when he is done teaching them they say he was exactly right?

Larry is not a players coach. But he is without a doubt one of the best coaches out there. He is also one of the most high maintenance coaches out there.

All that said, he DID have a track record of acting like this. This was not a guy like Steve Spurrier(Washington Redskins) who was unproven and high maintenance-this was Larry Brown. To use the excuse "we'll we didn't expect him to act like this" is a cop out. Noone should have expected LB to act any differently than he did. The only difference is we all expected him to win, which he didn't-through partially his fault and partially his players-who couldn't seem to find a compromise. Which also is a little weak because he has one before. We had 2 players who played any meaningful minutes in the playoffs ever-Richardson and Malik.
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buddapaw
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9/20/2006  2:34 PM
Did he set the NBA record for lineup changes in any of his pervious stops? NO! Yes he did pull ******* routine in several of his earlier teams but that was nothing compared to what he did here in NY.
"Low Percentage Shots r US, these are our Knicks" "NY KNICKS the cure for basketball fanatic"
oohah
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9/20/2006  2:40 PM
Posted by joec32033:
Posted by buddapaw:
Posted by joec32033:
Larry showed his true colors and the players reacted accordingly.

If this is the whole point you are trying to make, Larry showed his true colors for 30 years. Same act different teams.

I can't decide whether it was arrogance or stupidity that made Dolan and Isiah think that LB would change his way of doing things(which happen to be very successful) for them.

Larry is an anal, stodgy, old bastard. Not one person has ever denied that. His true colors are out there, and have been for a while. Everyone thought these players were tough enough and committed enou to be winners. Apparently they weren't.

Maybe it was the players who showed their true colors.

[Edited by - joec32033 on 09-20-2006 09:13 AM]


Of his 30 years he has never done anything like this. Why now? Is it the bright lights of NYC? He wanted players to play with consistency and never gave them consistent minutes. He wanted players to earn their time on the court, then when they do perform they can be inactive the next game. Please do tell what was his reasoning, what the hell was going on in Larry's head. How making an adjustment during the year did he do that? Yes he will get his money, but he as sure as hell doesn't deserve it. Yeah the Dolan and IT team makes everyone sick, but this team was in essence rebuilding so why were the old farts playing who are not the future of the team. We needed to give our rooks time to develop we were already losing so why not give them a major share of the minutes. After the all-star break when Nate won the Slam Dunk thingy why was he inactive, Larry preached pressure the ball and playing defence this is what Nate gives you. I think it was Larry's way to show Nate that he was the star in this town. I blame Dolan and IT for hiring Larry Brown, they knew what kind of snake he was and probably made stipulations in his contract, but if it crawls like a snake, looks like a snake well it must be a snake. Again you can't publicly bash players constantly(note I said constantly because you can use the media to light a fire under a players ass occasionally) and expect them to run through walls for you.

Huh? Never pulled anything like this before? Are you kidding?

His showdown with Iverson for six years? Wanting to David Robinson? Begging to have Mark Jackson traded then begging to get him back in Indiana? The crap with Darko? The way he exits everywhere he goes? The reason he never stays anywhere is he is too abrasive and anal and player get tired of it-that is his rep, right? All the crap he pulled with Detroit to get out of there? You remember how he didn't play Dalembert consistently(if at all) in Philly? Everywhere he is the players hate him and everywhere he was they talk about him like dear old Grandpa who was the most influential guy in their lives? And it's not just role players like McKey or Snow it STARS like Miller and Iverson and Rasheed and Billiups...How demanding he is on PG's and how much they hate it? Then when he is done teaching them they say he was exactly right?

Larry is not a players coach. But he is without a doubt one of the best coaches out there. He is also one of the most high maintenance coaches out there.

All that said, he DID have a track record of acting like this. This was not a guy like Steve Spurrier(Washington Redskins) who was unproven and high maintenance-this was Larry Brown. To use the excuse "we'll we didn't expect him to act like this" is a cop out. Noone should have expected LB to act any differently than he did. The only difference is we all expected him to win, which he didn't-through partially his fault and partially his players-who couldn't seem to find a compromise. Which also is a little weak because he has one before. We had 2 players who played any meaningful minutes in the playoffs ever-Richardson and Malik.



Joe you make a very interesting point about why it was better to let LB go rather than give in to his demands. He wanted David top 50 ever Robinson traded. He wanted Allen MVP Iverson traded. He wanted Billups and Hamilton(I think?) traded. He wanted Mark Jackson traded then realized he made a big mistake.

Imagine if he had gotten his way with Robinson or Iverson or Billups/Hamilton. These are very good reason not to trust his judgement regarding player personell indeed.

oohah

Good luck Mike D'Antoni, 'cause you ain't never seen nothing like this before!
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9/20/2006  2:57 PM
Posted by buddapaw:

Did he set the NBA record for lineup changes in any of his pervious stops? NO! Yes he did pull ******* routine in several of his earlier teams but that was nothing compared to what he did here in NY.

How many of the lineup changes were due to injuries and such and how many were due to pure LB?

Let me count the possibilites of those who missed significant time or were traded for and would/could have been considered starters:

Curry
AD
Frye
Q
Marbury
Big Game (when Curry went down)
Francis
Jalen Rose
Woods

I guess that would push the lineups totals, right?


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wsdm
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9/20/2006  3:07 PM
Posted by martin:
Posted by buddapaw:

Did he set the NBA record for lineup changes in any of his pervious stops? NO! Yes he did pull ******* routine in several of his earlier teams but that was nothing compared to what he did here in NY.

How many of the lineup changes were due to injuries and such and how many were due to pure LB?

Let me count the possibilites of those who missed significant time or were traded for and would/could have been considered starters:

Curry
AD
Frye
Q
Marbury
Big Game (when Curry went down)
Francis
Jalen Rose
Woods

I guess that would push the lineups totals, right?
So would a crazy idea like starting whatever players grew up closest to the city you're playing in!
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martin
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9/20/2006  3:10 PM
Posted by wsdm:
Posted by martin:
Posted by buddapaw:

Did he set the NBA record for lineup changes in any of his pervious stops? NO! Yes he did pull ******* routine in several of his earlier teams but that was nothing compared to what he did here in NY.

How many of the lineup changes were due to injuries and such and how many were due to pure LB?

Let me count the possibilites of those who missed significant time or were traded for and would/could have been considered starters:

Curry
AD
Frye
Q
Marbury
Big Game (when Curry went down)
Francis
Jalen Rose
Woods

I guess that would push the lineups totals, right?
So would a crazy idea like starting whatever players grew up closest to the city you're playing in!

so crazy Dean Smith started it!
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buddapaw
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9/20/2006  3:10 PM
The starting lineup is only part of it what about the mindnumbing substitution patterns.
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nyk4ever
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9/20/2006  3:37 PM
Posted by buddapaw:

The starting lineup is only part of it what about the mindnumbing substitution patterns.

When your team sucks, what else do you expect. You guys act like this was a winning team before Brown took over, this was/is a perennial 30win team that Brown was doing these "mindnumbing" substituion patterns. It's not like he was subbing out Michael Jordan and Scottie Pippen here.
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buddapaw
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9/20/2006  3:38 PM
Posted by nyk4ever:
Posted by buddapaw:

The starting lineup is only part of it what about the mindnumbing substitution patterns.

When your team sucks, what else do you expect. You guys act like this was a winning team before Brown took over, this was/is a perennial 30win team that Brown was doing this with.

C'mon let's get real here what was the purpose of the team last year? Was it a playoff team? Hell No. Was a reclaimation project? That's what it was supposed to be. 30 win team my foot, even a college coach could have gotten more than 30 wins with this team. You idolize Larry Brown like he is this coaching GOD. He has flaws, pretty major ones if you ask me. So I ask you did Larry Brown do anything to cause what happened with the Knicks last year? Honest answer please.
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buddapaw
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9/20/2006  3:41 PM
Posted by nyk4ever:
Posted by buddapaw:

The starting lineup is only part of it what about the mindnumbing substitution patterns.

When your team sucks, what else do you expect. You guys act like this was a winning team before Brown took over, this was/is a perennial 30win team that Brown was doing these "mindnumbing" substituion patterns. It's not like he was subbing out Michael Jordan and Scottie Pippen here.

Also by your own admission Larry Brown took a perennial 30 win team and made it worse. HOORAY for the coaching GOD Larry Brown.
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nyk4ever
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9/20/2006  3:45 PM
Posted by buddapaw:
Posted by nyk4ever:
Posted by buddapaw:

The starting lineup is only part of it what about the mindnumbing substitution patterns.

When your team sucks, what else do you expect. You guys act like this was a winning team before Brown took over, this was/is a perennial 30win team that Brown was doing this with.

C'mon let's get real here what was the purpose of the team last year? Was it a playoff team? Hell No. Was a reclaimation project? That's what it was supposed to be. 30 win team my foot, even a college coach could have gotten more than 30 wins with this team. You idolize Larry Brown like he is this coaching GOD. He has flaws, pretty major ones if you ask me. So I ask you did Larry Brown do anything to cause what happened with the Knicks last year? Honest answer please.

You guys are all either blind, deaf and dumb or all 3. I've said a million times that Brown contributed to the Knicks HORRIBLE year. Brown was horrible and I EXPECTED HIM TO BE HORRIBLE. While most of you guys were predicting 40 win seasons and the playoffs last year, I wasn't. I know what Browns history is and I know how teams play horribly for him in his first year. Does that abstain Brown from the horrible year? Not at all, but in the past he came back the 2nd and 3rd years and had really good seasons. What makes any of you think it would be any different here with the Knicks, had he been given the chance to come back? Did I make this clear enough Buddaw? I've answered this question a million times, I just don't think you guys know how to read. YES BROWN WAS HORRIBLE LAST YEAR AND CONTRIBUTED TO THE 23WIN SEASON JUST AS MUCH AS THE PLAYERS CONTRIBUTED TO THE 23WIN SEASON. With that said, if you give me the keys to the franchise and who will rebuild the franchise, I'll take Brown over Isiah any day of the year.

[Edited by - nyk4ever on 09-20-2006 3:46 PM]
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wsdm
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9/20/2006  4:13 PM
With that said, if you give me the keys to the franchise and who will rebuild the franchise, I'll take Brown over Isiah any day of the year.
That's a George Bush type of false choice! The obvious answer is that they're both disasters and I'd be happy if both never got a dime in salary. Why defend either?

[Edited by - wsdm on 09-20-2006 4:16 PM]
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wsdm
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9/20/2006  4:14 PM
Posted by buddapaw:

The starting lineup is only part of it what about the mindnumbing substitution patterns.
Yes, and it has nothing to do with the team being bad. Other bad teams didn't do the crazy playing time he did. Good teams didn't do it when they were bad and learning to become good either.
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BlueSeats
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9/20/2006  4:16 PM
Don't hear this wrong, but Brown said that Isiah told him who to play. I'm not saying isiah told him to use 42 lineups, but it's possible that since they had different concepts on who merited time that they decided between them to give everybody a good look. An extended audition if you will, especially after Marbury went down and all shots at the playoffs were kaput.

Instead of arguing over who merited time, give them all a shot and see who rises to the top.

It's possible.
800 pound gorilla thread: LB case to be decided:

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