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What exactly has Isiah done as an executive anywhere
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Bippity10
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12/30/2005  11:05 AM
We argue that the media and fans have no effect on the players. Then when their numbers go down at home we blame it on magical MSG gnomes not realizing that we the fans and our media have something to do with it.
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joec32033
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12/30/2005  11:05 AM
Franco, Marbury is putting up the same numbers, but tell me....does he really look like the same player that played for the Nets, PHX, and the Wolves? Even before Larry, he didn't look CLOSE to the player he looked like in his other stops.
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joec32033
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12/30/2005  11:09 AM
Posted by Bippity10:

It's a combination of the NY pressure and the fact that Anderson, Eisley and Marbs were placed into roles that they were incapable of filling and then were blasted for not filling them. In Utah Shandon and Howard were role players who only had to mop up the dirty work left undone by Malone and Stockton. HEre we needed Shandon to be a shut down SF and provide shooting. We needed Eisley to become Kidd and lead our offense. Marbs we need him to be a Jason Kidd type leader and to help our offense run like the Celtics of yore. All these players are incapable of filling the roles we are asking them to do and will not become more valuable to us until we get help around them.


Bip, Anderson and Eisley were brough here as pieces...I for one expected nothing more than solid play, exactly what they brought to Utah.

Marbs is different..Marbs was a bonafide Star in a loose sense of the word with so much potential that was flashed..like I said, he is putting up the same numbers but he is nowhere near the same player.
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Bippity10
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12/30/2005  11:10 AM
I think Marbs is frustrated, battered and feeling attacked and I think this has affected his game similar to some of the other players that have been brought here. I'm telling you it's a cycle that other players around the league have not only noticed but have mentioned. This hurts us in my opinion.
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joec32033
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12/30/2005  11:13 AM
What hurts us is that Steph is so wildly emotional on the court that we see every outburst and glare on TV and he is fighting with a coach who has point blank made his players BETTER. There is no argument that can be made about that IMO. He brings wins to players who are smart enough to listen to him.
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islesfan
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12/30/2005  11:13 AM
Posted by joec32033:
Posted by islesfan:
Posted by joec32033:

I know I am in this convo. late but, I got to add my 2 cents.

Zeke built Toronto with Vince, McGrady, Damon, Camby....
Zeke in Indy developed JO, Artest, Brad Miller.....

Remember Zeke got Artest, JO, and Miller in trades (with Chicago and Portland) and drafted Vince, Camby, Damon, TMac....

In both instances he was basically in a posiotion of clean slate and when he got here not only does he have to rebuild it, he has to clean up the mess from the management before.

Built Toronto into what? And notice Isiah drafted those players with what? HIGH LOTTERY PICKS of which Isiah has traded away 4 of ours.

All Indy did was underachieve when he was there. It was Carlisle that took them to another level. And Donnie Walsh got those players, not Isiah.


Which High lotto picks has Zeke traded away? Next year and the year after (maybe)? It takes it to a whole new level judging draft picks a full year before a player is even drafted in the slots man.

Look at what Zeke got back....Curry is definately worth the pick this year (especially with Frye here now, where this draft is big on centers and PF's and we have enough of those). The pick next year well...who knows what that would be....

In 04 he gave up the 16th pick which turned out to be Kirk Snyder. Granted there were some very good players available(JR Smith and Josh Smith) but they were passed on also so Zeke isn't the only one who made that mistake.

In 05 he got 3 picks who look to be good picks. Exactly what is the major problem here?

He gave up the 04 pick which would have been a lot better than the 16th pick if we hadn't made the trade and torn it down. He gave up this years which could conceivably be a top 3 pick. The way Curry is going, being out of shape and injury prone, I wouldn't trade him for a top 3 pick. He gave up next year's pick in a swap with the Bulls and we still owe one more pick from the Marbury deal.

Yeah in 05 he got 3 picks of which one looks like an NBA starter (not coincidentally it was with the lottery pick) with the others looking like nothing more than role players.
If it didn’t work in Phoenix with Nash and Stoutamire... it’s just not a winning formula. It’s an entertaining formula, but not a winning one. - Derek Harper talking about D'Antoni's System
fishmike
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12/30/2005  11:17 AM
Posted by Bippity10:
But back to Zeke and the Knicks. I am not firing the guy because his legacy to me is more about Curry and Frye than Marbury.
I agree 100%. Those are two players that can really be a great tandem. Also, they are ready very soon. I'm not giving anyone a pass for this year but I would expect the pair of them to be ready next year. The problem is like you said; nothing he's done so far has worked. This is the one thing I can wait on. If Curry shows up next year in good shape and Frye continues to mature we have a good thing going. This isnt a 5 year Curry/Chandler plan with a couple of promising 18 year olds. You can see the potential for a great combo now.
You stick Frye and Curry with some good backcourt firepower in Marbury and Crawford. You add some hustle and muscle in Nate, Ariza and Lee and it looks like a good road map. Looks can be decieving and this group MUST perform because this management has spent a TON to assemble it and in doing so is commited to making it work.

Jay.. bitching about a 7-20 team with the best coach in the NBA and by far the highest payroll all belonging to players this GM brought in isnt nitpicking and hating.

"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
joec32033
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12/30/2005  11:17 AM
Isles, why is it that you fault Zeke for not being able to see in the future what you see in hindsight?
The way Curry is going, being out of shape and injury prone, I wouldn't trade him for a top 3 pick

I was happy with the trade then because I truly believe this draft is weak, and the next one will also be weak.
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joec32033
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12/30/2005  11:21 AM
You stick Frye and Curry with some good backcourt firepower in Marbury and Crawford.

I seriously believe that Marbury, if we don't see some type of cooperation by the Steph and LB by the deadline, I think Steph is gone.
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jaydh
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12/30/2005  11:22 AM
Posted by fishmike:

Jay.. bitching about a 7-20 team with the best coach in the NBA and by far the highest payroll all belonging to players this GM brought in isnt nitpicking and hating.

first, LB is not the best coach in the nba. he is the best teacher, but in no way is he the best coach. 2ndly, this is typical of every team LB has gone too, so sit back and be patient. and if isiah lets ad+penny walk, the payroll will be less than what layden had us at.
FireIsiah
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12/30/2005  11:40 AM
Posted by joec32033:

Isles, why is it that you fault Zeke for not being able to see in the future what you see in hindsight?
The way Curry is going, being out of shape and injury prone, I wouldn't trade him for a top 3 pick

I was happy with the trade then because I truly believe this draft is weak, and the next one will also be weak.

The draft might be a little weak but with a top 3 pick we could take Aldridge, Gay or Morrison. Plus how many years were left on Curry's contract when we got him? When was he to become a free agent?



[Edited by - Fireisiah on 12-30-2005 11:41 AM]
I want to leave something that's going to stand for a long timeI want to leave a legacy,I want to leave tradition.I want to leave an imprint,a blueprint in terms of how people play,and how they coach and how they respond when they put on the Knick uni.
fishmike
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12/30/2005  11:43 AM
Posted by jaydh:
Posted by fishmike:

Jay.. bitching about a 7-20 team with the best coach in the NBA and by far the highest payroll all belonging to players this GM brought in isnt nitpicking and hating.

first, LB is not the best coach in the nba. he is the best teacher, but in no way is he the best coach. 2ndly, this is typical of every team LB has gone too, so sit back and be patient. and if isiah lets ad+penny walk, the payroll will be less than what layden had us at.
I'm more patient than I seem. I like to see things go better, but I understand whats happening here.
As for Larry Brown being the best coach thats not my opinion. Its was the opnion of the league's GMs. Dont take my word for it, but this is pretty telling:
http://www.nba.com/preview2005/gmsurvey_coaches.html
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
islesfan
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12/30/2005  11:44 AM
Posted by joec32033:

Isles, why is it that you fault Zeke for not being able to see in the future what you see in hindsight?
The way Curry is going, being out of shape and injury prone, I wouldn't trade him for a top 3 pick

I was happy with the trade then because I truly believe this draft is weak, and the next one will also be weak.

It wasn't hindsight. I was very rational in why I disliked these trades from the beginning and unfortunately the reasons why I disliked them have come to fruition.

This draft is shaping up to be top heavy which is exactly where the Bulls look to be using our pick. And next year isn't supposed to be weak with lots of impact players available in the lottery.
If it didn’t work in Phoenix with Nash and Stoutamire... it’s just not a winning formula. It’s an entertaining formula, but not a winning one. - Derek Harper talking about D'Antoni's System
nyk4ever
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12/30/2005  11:48 AM
Posted by islesfan:

This draft is shaping up to be top heavy which is exactly where the Bulls look to be using our pick. And next year isn't supposed to be weak with lots of impact players available in the lottery.

I'll still take Curry(since we traded the picks to get him) over Gay, Morrison and Aldridge and I'd do it any day of the week.




[Edited by - nyk4ever on 12-30-2005 11:48 AM]
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joec32033
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12/30/2005  11:53 AM
Posted by FireIsiah:
Posted by joec32033:

Isles, why is it that you fault Zeke for not being able to see in the future what you see in hindsight?
The way Curry is going, being out of shape and injury prone, I wouldn't trade him for a top 3 pick

I was happy with the trade then because I truly believe this draft is weak, and the next one will also be weak.

The draft might be a little weak but with a top 3 pick we could take Aldridge, Gay or Morrison. Plus how many years were left on Curry's contract when we got him? When was he to become a free agent?



[Edited by - Fireisiah on 12-30-2005 11:41 AM]


We signed him to a new contract but If I remember correctly it is complicated in that we have options after like the second and third years...comes out to about 10 mi ish a year I think...
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joec32033
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12/30/2005  11:54 AM
Posted by islesfan:
Posted by joec32033:

Isles, why is it that you fault Zeke for not being able to see in the future what you see in hindsight?
The way Curry is going, being out of shape and injury prone, I wouldn't trade him for a top 3 pick

I was happy with the trade then because I truly believe this draft is weak, and the next one will also be weak.

It wasn't hindsight. I was very rational in why I disliked these trades from the beginning and unfortunately the reasons why I disliked them have come to fruition.

This draft is shaping up to be top heavy which is exactly where the Bulls look to be using our pick. And next year isn't supposed to be weak with lots of impact players available in the lottery.


You seem to be heavy into the lotto picks being borderline All-Stars....do I really have to mention all the lotto picks that turned out to be crap?
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jaydh
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12/30/2005  11:55 AM
Posted by fishmike:
Posted by jaydh:
Posted by fishmike:

Jay.. bitching about a 7-20 team with the best coach in the NBA and by far the highest payroll all belonging to players this GM brought in isnt nitpicking and hating.

first, LB is not the best coach in the nba. he is the best teacher, but in no way is he the best coach. 2ndly, this is typical of every team LB has gone too, so sit back and be patient. and if isiah lets ad+penny walk, the payroll will be less than what layden had us at.
I'm more patient than I seem. I like to see things go better, but I understand whats happening here.
As for Larry Brown being the best coach thats not my opinion. Its was the opnion of the league's GMs. Dont take my word for it, but this is pretty telling:
http://www.nba.com/preview2005/gmsurvey_coaches.html

i'm not sure what LB has done to earn himself that honor. i always preferred phil over LB.
bobs3304
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12/30/2005  11:55 AM
Isiah is killing this franchise.

He's such a piece of ****.

Stacks the lineup with offense, and relies on over-the-hill role players for defense.

And then, on top of it all, he tries to defend it all by claiming we're rebuilding on a 125 million $$ payroll.

DLee is the best thing to happen to NY in Isiah's 4 year tenure. And that alone, though a positive on the radar, is sad as hell.
jaydh
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12/30/2005  11:56 AM
Posted by islesfan:
Posted by joec32033:

Isles, why is it that you fault Zeke for not being able to see in the future what you see in hindsight?
The way Curry is going, being out of shape and injury prone, I wouldn't trade him for a top 3 pick

I was happy with the trade then because I truly believe this draft is weak, and the next one will also be weak.

It wasn't hindsight. I was very rational in why I disliked these trades from the beginning and unfortunately the reasons why I disliked them have come to fruition.

This draft is shaping up to be top heavy which is exactly where the Bulls look to be using our pick. And next year isn't supposed to be weak with lots of impact players available in the lottery.


you just dislike everything isiah does. you wouldnt even have to read the trade, all you hear is, Isiah made a trade, must be bad.
jaydh
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12/30/2005  11:56 AM
Posted by nyk4ever:
Posted by islesfan:

This draft is shaping up to be top heavy which is exactly where the Bulls look to be using our pick. And next year isn't supposed to be weak with lots of impact players available in the lottery.

I'll still take Curry(since we traded the picks to get him) over Gay, Morrison and Aldridge and I'd do it any day of the week.




[Edited by - nyk4ever on 12-30-2005 11:48 AM]

as would i
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What exactly has Isiah done as an executive anywhere
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