an isles lovefest! who would have thought?? and they say there's no hope for change in the world!!

well i say you should go for it now while the goin's good. our record has mostly sucked since we picked up marbs so you're entitled to say how you knew isiah would suck and how that trade sucked. but check it out - we just played 2 teams from the vaunted west with combined 27-12 records including 18-6 at home and we lost by a grand total of 9 points. marbury only "sucks" cause our record does, and i don't think that's going to go on much longer. so as the buddy guy song goes, it's your turn now but it's gonna be my turn after a while.

hey, bottom line: sports is result oriented. Until Marbury wins, he's a loser, that's pretty glaringly obvious. And Nash may not have Amare, but he certainly has Shawn Marion who is about as close a lock for 20 and 10 as you can get in this league. Marbury has never played with an all-star like Marion as a Knick. When Marbury had Marion, they challenged the champion Spurs and played them better than anyone in the playoffs (and better than Nash played the Spurs in the playoffs last year). One thing about Nash's roster, Isles, how can you say he has no one and then crow that Kurt Thomas is averaging 14rpg and clearly isn't finished? Clearly the Suns have done a great job with their roster, getting Diaw, Thomas, Raja and James Jones all for cheap. That's one area the Suns have certainly excelled at compare to the Knicks. But the Suns already have a base of three all-stars in Nash/Marion/Amare. It's easy to make small adjustments when you have that superb base. The reason Isiah has been doing different things is because he's doing what every crappy team in the league does: try to build the base of all-stars and then fine tool the team. We have a start on that with Marbury/Frye/Curry, but I don't think anyone would compare our base to the Suns. Amare is the second or third best big man in the league when healthy, Marion is a 20/10 monster at the forward and Nash is clearly a gifted PG.

Of course Marbury is a flawed player, but he's still extremely talented and you can win with him if the team is constructed properly. Really, there are aren't too many players in the league who aren't flawed. The problem with the Knicks has a lot more to do with the flawed roster. Why aren't the second and third best players starting (Frye and Crawford?). Who is the small forward? We certainly don't have one of Marion's or even Diaw's prowess.

Obviously, Isiah has done a questionable job. Personally, I'm happy to have Curry and Frye and Crawford to build around and maybe Isiah can add a big piece like Artest at the trade deadline this year. But I don't think you can blame Marbury for the loses when the guys he started the season with last year are all coming off the bench for different teams (KT for PHO, Nazr for SAN and Tim Thomas is almost out of the league). The best player Marbury ever had to play with here is coming off the bench for another team - KVH for the Mavs.

Sure this season has been ugly, but they've been learning a new system, dealing with some questionable rotations from Brown, played 13 of 19 on the road, had some injury issues with Q and Curry that slowed down the development process. I don't see how all this is Marbury's fault.

Does Nash need excuses? No. But it sure helps to have a fellow all-star by your side in Marion every night. I didn't see this thread when the Nash was 4-5. It helps to post this thread during the Suns longest winning streak of the season, and coincidentally that 9 game streak came during a stretch where the Suns played 7 games out of 9 at home. One of their two road games was against Houston, playing without Tmac. Hey, what do you know, the Knicks haven't played 7 home games all season, let along 7 out of 9, let alone even three in a row. In fact, of Phoenix's first 18 games of the season 13 were at home and 5, yes FIVE, were on the road. Kind of explains their record a bit more, no? When you have two all-stars playing 13 of 18 at home, you would hope to go about 13-5, or at least you had better.

See, my problem here is the using stats to present a skewed case. It's not like Mabury has stunk the Knicks up with 13 home games and a fellow all-star to help him. No. He's had 6 home games and the closest thing on his team to an all-star (Frye) is a rookie who doesn't start. Curry has been injured and out of shape. His best outside shooter (Q) is going through a family crisis and has also been injured. And his other option is Jamal Crawford who is insanely inconsistant and also doesn't start. His starters include a 5'9" turnover machine, a 37 year old power forward with the worst plus/minus in the league and a rotating cast of small forwards with no skills. So, do I think it's fair to compare the Knicks situation with the Suns? No, no I don't, unless you want to make thin arguments that don't actually "analyze" anything. Pardon me if I think qualifying a situation is not the same as making excuses.

But, yes, the bottom line in sports is about results and right now the Suns are better than the Knicks.

Bip, I don't think there are many people giving up on Frye and Curry. I sure as in heck am not. Bip, what do you think about Fridays game though? I thought the whole game was interesting, what are your thoughts?

Amare was on the team that went to the play-offs and took the Spurs 6.

The team that Amare wasn't on in the first half of the year due to injury but did have Penny Joe Johnson and Marion was in the cellar at the time Steph got traded.

^I think Steph in his prime could carry a team and make up for all that stuff we are criticizing now. But the fact is that he is on the other side of his career and hasn't picked up those intangibles along the way.

My question again becomes who do you trade Marbury for. Trading him for lesser value, I'm not sure how that helps us. Get higher draft picks? I just can't evaluate the guy based on what he has here in NY. Our teams have been garbage. I don't find it to be Steph's fault anymore than I found it to be Allan's. We don't have a SF that can shoot a 6 footer. I want that fixed before I worry about Marbury.

Marbury is not Nash and the comparisons are ridiculous. But he is not the reason for our losing. The guy has been a team guy this year, he's played hard, upped his D, his rebounding is up his shot attempts are down almost 2 a game. The guy is clearly making an attempt. Is he a leader extraordinaire? No. Is he an elite winner? No. But he's better than what we are going to get in return.

Posted by Bippity10:

As for the Knicks being mired in mediocrity. All the young guys on this team I'm not understanding all the pessimism. Curry and Frye have as much potential as any duo in the league. He's putting up Bosh like numbers and Curry is still a youth. Who knows what they will be. Curry could be a pain in the ass for a long time. But it's a little early to give up on that Duo. Throw in Butler, Ariza(get a jumpshot), Robinson, Crawford, Lee and I'm not sure what else you expect from rebuilding. NOt many teams have a more capable group of young guys. It shouldn't be all negative in Knickville.

Frye is a nice player on offense, not much of a defensive player but just a complimentary piece. Curry has potential but so what if he doesn't play up to it and he never will if he doesn't improve on his work ethic, which in his 5th year in the league is still a major question mark. Not to mention he's a terrible rebounder and defender for his size. Butler is nothing more than a backup if that. Ariza has no basketball skills to speak of and only has a role based on hustle. Robinson is a 5'7 backup SG, JC is outrageously erratic and inconsistent and Lee is stuck on the bench again. None of that is based on hate just an honest assessment.

Posted by islesfan:

2 years ago I said Isiah was going to bring us to the depths of mediocrity for years to come and so far he's done nothing to dispute that. He continues to bring in flawed players at ridiculous costs in terms of draft picks and money that will sink us deeper and deeper in the abyss.

what did you expect him to do? he didnt have a lot to work with. the trade was made for steph when AH was still healthy, and we were trying to win now while Houston's knees were still good. isiah has a plan(thats kinda dumb to say a GM doesnt have a plan since thats their job), its ok if you dont see it, but it seems like you just hate isiah no matter what he does(and your view of him just reinforces that).