Posted by newyorknewyork:
Thats not a great attitude. But its still the attitude of someone who is very upset that we are losing the game. If players are patting him on the head then he is obviously beating himself up for the knicks losing. And not being where he needs to be to help them win because he hasn't adapted to Brown as fast as he wants to. But yet he lacks passion and doesn't hate to lose??? What you should be criticism is he wasn't very aggressive on offense, the sense of urgency wasn't there.

NY, please accept there is more than one legitimate ground for criticism of Marbury.

Of course his urgency is an issue,; check the game thread where I speak to his "energy" as suspect and often negative.

But the towel drape is just a dumb sulky look and one I desperately hope does not wear off on the kids. The day I look over at the bench and see Steph wearing his grim reaper towel along with Trevor, Frye, Nate and Lee will be the day my hate grows beyond forgiveness. I don't want that sulking "leadership" spreading like an infectious disease.

I also don't jump to the same conclusion that Steph is wallowing in SELF blame. Hate to lose... sure... who doesn't, but when has Steph ever shouldered responsibility for loses? He uses all the same excuses fans make for him: his teammates and coaching aren't up to par. His latest lament is that Larry isn't utilizing him properly and he felt "useless" out there. Hardly the self blame you ascribe to his wallowing. Self pity seems far more apt than self blame.

Remember, when he came to the Knicks he wanted to be judged on wins and losses, as a PG should (his words)? But when the losses piled up he changed his tune along the lines of "if he wins a championship it's because of team but if he loses it's all on him, so it's never fair."

It's an ever shifting landscape of unaccountability that he and his fans can't seem to live without.

Of course there is some degree of validity to some of his excuses, but Steph's accomplishments have not matched his salary and prima donna attitudes, his slacking on d and in practice, and his telling his coaches to shove it. I for one can't divorce those concerns, those negative leadership attributes from his third tier player status. His caliber of play simply doesn't overcome his negative attributes -- and conversely, his more than suspect leadership doesn't compensate for his failings on the floor. Together they make for a player I find hard to root for.

But to each their own. Plenty love him, and I'm glad for you that you have him.

Posted by newyorknewyork:
cially hate Marbury because he goes away from what YOU want. Which is to tear the whole team down and rebuild with pure youth. (Which I have no problem with and would support if we went that route).

I'm not going to go too deep into your post but I don't think you've got me down 100%. I am an admitted Marbury detractor, no doubt, but it's not primarily because I wanted a full rebuild and youth movement. I initially supported the trade in spite of that. I'm down on steph because I believed he'd put his prima donna modus operandi behind him upon arriving here and he did not. he got his dream job and then did not give 100% of himself to it, and he's on schedule to wear out his welcome in the same 2-2.5 years here like he has everywhere else.

He makes himself hard for me to root for, I find him a distraction to the team and my enjoyment of the team, and I like my beloved Knicks better when he's off the floor.

Now I've explained why all that is the case for me untold times, but the more specific I get the less fair I'm accused of being, like he "ran over my dog or stole my girlfriend." All i can say is my sentiments were considered radical by NY standards a year ago, but they are fairly mainstream now. That's not because of my doings, it's because of his.

Posted by newyorknewyork:

My argument has never been Marbury could do no wrong. My arguement last season was allways there were more/other/bigger problems with the team than Marbury's flaws. I also already went into detail many times explaining why I felt so. My arguement has allways been Marbury's flaws weren't THE MAIN reasons or ONLY reasons we were losing games last season and just getting rid of him wouldn't all of a sudden make Tim Thomas motivated or turn KT & Muhammad into the Wallaces in detroit, or make Alan Housotn healthy. Or give Herb Williams more coaching experience along with a great system & plan. So why keep attacking Marbury and making him the scapegoat for all that was wrong with the Knicks.

But you know what. You win. Marbury is the worst thing to happen to basketball since the invention of the 3pt arc. I hope he breaks breaks both his legs, and all his teeth falls out so that he can't disgrace the game of basketball anymore.

Well in general I think the refrain that "it's not all Marbury's fault" is vastly overused cause for the most part people use it any time Marbury is criticized for anything. Imagine if we did that for everyone; Malik takes a lot of abuse right now, but does anyone think our losing is "all his fault"? No. So should it get him a fee pass such that he gets no criticism? No.

However, having said that, I felt last season that the Marbury disruption was huge and was a tremendous negative impact on the team, far beyond my criticisms of his floor play. In as much as I credited him for our 16-13 start (which included TT's worst performances, and some of Crawford's injuries, which at the time we were winning in spite of) I also saw felt that many of his offcourt shenanigans had the team divided around him which evidenced itself in play so gutless that many thought we were tanking for the lottery.

And remember, much of that gutless play came after the resurgence of TT's game and long after Crawfords return. (And let us remember we played .500 during JC's 12 game absence).

So yeah, I think him spending practices on the massage table, telling coaches to "shove it", having lockerroom altercations wherein Kurt wanted to take his head off and half the team sided with Kurt, his favored relationship with the GM he lives two doors down from, his getting anyone removed from the team who doesn't like him, etc etc, created a bad vibe that came to a head around his "I'm the best" comments. I think the team chemistry was beyond bad, and we saw whole games of woefully dispirited play.

And please don't make it about injuries. Injuries are a fact of life in the NBA. Our three main players were Steph, JC and Kurt. Steph played 82 games, so no loss there. Kurt played 80 games, so loss there. Jamal played 70 games and we played .500 ball in the 12 games he missed, so no real loss there. Anything else was incidental role players. If a team can't survive a minor injury to a role player here or there without a major plummet it's got problems deeper than said injury.

So while I typically take issue with the dodge "it' not all his fault", in my case, in terms of the large context of the second half of last season, I do believe team chemistry issues around Marbury were responsible for the enormous dropoff in play that exactly coincided with his "I'm the best" comments.

And I'll go one step further. After summer league I wondered how the success of the youth would mix with the failure of last year, and how I see this team now being built around Jamal rather than Steph. All of JC, Q, Curry, Nate, Frye and Lee had some connections to each other before meeting up here, and together they constitute a team unto themselves with styles that mesh. (Add in Ariza too for his age and playing style.)

OTOH, guys like Marbury, Mo, Rose, and JJ had no ties to each other or the youth, and were effectively on the outside looking in. And they constituted a style of play that was ineffective for us in the past, be it with Marbury or in the Layden years.

My point in all this is I see this team yet again poised for divisions around Steph, and his sulking and disenfranchised demeanor isn't winning him points with coach or his enthusiastic and hungry teammates that comprise our future. If gutless play again constitutes our identity this season, I will again attribute it mostly to Steph. Not exclusively, but mostly to a fractured team suffering from divisions and distractions around a negative leader and his negative energy.

Blueseats through all our argueing, your still a good guy. BTW what did you say exactly to get suspended from realgm?? I didn't get a chance to read that thread??? Did you call out a mod??

Thanks, NY, I like you too. You are as level headed and composed as they come.

Yes, I called out a mod. I refrained from a thread until page 3 or so that was calling out "haters". Half my post addressed the thread starter and the other half addressed a disagreement between mjhp911 and powerforward99. mjhp, rather than challenging the points fimslim3 was making decided to disparage him as a poster instead. Powerforward99 called mjhp out on that and noted that mjhp911 had gone so far as to suspend him the last time he did. I commented that I didn't find personal attacks toward posters becoming behavior from a mod. I then explained that I felt mods were harder on haters by nature, since most of them were homerish in their views, and most were the types most likely to engage marauding trolls from other teams. As such some treat 'hate' as an infiltration into their boards that must be driven back, much as a border cop would illegal aliens.

To prove me right mjhp shut me down and sent me back to the border. He did the same to fimslim3 and pf99.

Anyway, it was only a suspension, I wasn't permanently waived, but enough with that baloney over there. Through PMs three mods told me they thought I, fimslim and pf99 weren't dealt with fairly, but no one was willing to stick their necks out and say so in a way that mattered. And the head mod never responded to my PMs. When the suspension held shutting me out of the season opener I simply decided my time there was a bad investment and I'd not throw good money after bad.

------

But I want to be clear about one thing. I didn't come here simply to spread my old views to another board. With Kurt and others against Steph gone from last year, I fully expected Steph to start anew and, at a minimum, play well for Brown. I expected I could turn my attention away from his distractions for a while. And at a maximum, I thought he could become a real leader and integral component to a winning franchise for years to come. I expected to have to eat some crow from guys like you.

(OTOH, Brown is systematically addressing most of my complaints against Steph, so perhaps my judgments weren't so far off.)

Steph still has a chance to make good, but boy, 9 games into the season and the blame game already in full swing... it ain't looking good...

moocow = bbj on the trade board...