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OT--USA military shouldve helped get the people out of nO BEFORE the fact
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fishmike
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9/2/2005  7:26 AM
Only thing that will make “evil” spread even further is if men of good do nothing.
well said my friend. A motto worth living your life around.
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GoNyGoNyGo
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9/2/2005  7:53 AM
Briggs - Let me get this right. If you were in NO and feeling the way you do about the President and he came on and told you to leave your home because it will be under water soon, you would have listened to him? At that point, you would have put aside all your hatred for him and say "if he says it, he is the President, it must be true, let's go!"?

Just a guess, but I don't think you care an ounce of what he says, so why would you have listened to him then? Just as many people did not heed the warnings, you may not have either.

Also, why is it that the Federal GOVT is getting all the blame here? Is there no LOCAL govt there? Was there not a mayor or governor around? Are they blameless here? Who controls the Louisiana National Guard? Oh the governor of Lousisaina? So go ahead blame the one guy. It's all his fault, I keep forgetting that. The world started spinning on 1/21/01 and it revolves revolves around him.

The warnings were there and yes people think they are indestructible so they decided to stay or could not leave for one reason or another, I understand that. But to blame govt for not getting them out, when ample warning is given is ridiculous. Honestly, it would be hard to EVACUATE a city with NO IMPENDING DISASTER in less than a week! Think about how much planning that would take just for the 10's of thousands who needed a ride? That means hundreds of busses, hundreds of choppers, 10's of planes! By the way, that is all done on a LOCAL level! Maybe every city in America should have like a fire drill from now on. Everyone get out and we'll meet at the corner across the state?

For the guy who listed all the facts about the economy and health care. Let's not forget that after 9/11 over a million jobs were lost. Since then, those + 3 MIllion more have been created. As for health care, the number that Bill gave Bush sr was 40 million back in 92. So he did not do so well either right? Of those 45 million, how many are college kids? How many are illegals? Hmmm? If you want National Health Care, go to Canada. I hear they have a great system up there.

As I said before, this is a NATIONAL TRAGEDY. TO POLITICIZE THIS IS RIDICULOUS! Mother Nature is all powerful and proves it again and again.
fishmike
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9/2/2005  8:48 AM
FYI: college kids are all insured now through school. I got it when I went to a $1500/semester county college. As for illegals they arent even on the cencus so next question.

I can see why a Bush supporter would blame local gov.
Hell, lets face it all of the leadership in 9/11 came from Rudy and local gov. The fed didnt do crap (and still hasnt delivered on the money promised). Unless you count Bush's nice little speach on the rubble. Maybe he was sitting back and assuming N.O. would have their own Rudy.

Nothing Bush has done in office has worked. Nothing has yielded positive results, except for Chaney's overseas construction companies making mind boggling cash, but lets forget that for now. Lets focus on this at hand.

Whats happening now is a result of ZERO leadership and it starts from the top. I could care less about Reb vs. Dem
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nyk4ever
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9/2/2005  9:10 AM
It sounds like people are really starting to listen and their voices are starting to be heard becuase right now Bush just made his statement from the White House and on CNN there are reporters Carl Quintanilla are ripping Bush saying someone has to pay for this and Bush is at the top list.

I think it's interesting to look at this thread and see the names of the people who have replied, some I haven't seen around here in awhile and it's good to see that this subject has brought everyone out and back onto this board!
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Marv
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9/2/2005  9:18 AM
http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/09/02/katrina.nagin/index.html

New Orleans mayor lashes out at feds
Nagin: 'They are spinning and people are dying'

NEW ORLEANS, Louisiana (CNN) -- As his city skidded deeper into chaos, New Orleans' embattled mayor accused federal officials of dragging their feet while people are dying in deplorable conditions.

Mayor Ray Nagin's voice cracked with anger and anguish Thursday night in an interview with New Orleans radio station WWL.

"We're getting reports and calls that [are] breaking my heart from people saying, 'I've been in my attic. I can't take it anymore. The water is up to my neck. I don't think I can hold out.' And that's happening as we speak."

Nagin said the time has long past for federal authorities to act on their promises.

"You mean to tell me that a place where you probably have thousands of people that have died and thousands more that are dying every day, that we can't figure out a way to authorize the resources that we need? Come on man," he said.

"I need reinforcements," he pleaded. "I need troops, man. I need 500 buses, man. This is a national disaster.

"I've talked directly with the president," he said. "I've talked to the head of the homeland security. I've talked to everybody under the sun."

Homeland Security Secretary Michael Chertoff said Thursday that he thinks the Federal Emergency Management Agency and other federal agencies have done a "magnificent job" under difficult circumstances, citing their "courage" and "ingenuity."

Insisting that aid is coming as fast as possible, Chertoff said, "You can't fly helicopters in a hurricane. You can't drive trucks in a hurricane."

FEMA Director Michael Brown told CNN on Friday, "My heart breaks. What we're doing, we're ramping up."

The tempers of those waiting for food, water and relief from relentless heat continued to boil Friday as they waited for help to arrive, some in shocking conditions that were only getting worse. At least one large explosion rocked the city early Friday.

After scheduled visits to devastated areas in Alabama and Mississippi, President Bush was expected to fly over the hurricane-ravaged city on Friday.

As he left the White House, Bush said, "The results are not acceptable. I'm headed down there right now."

He said he was "looking forward" to thanking people involved in disaster-relief efforts and assuring victims that short-term and long-term help is on the way.

Louisiana Gov. Kathleen Blanco said she hoped the amount of needed aid would begin arriving Friday.

"I'm not going to stand here and play the blame game," Blanco said. "We have a problem. Let's get to the problem."

On Thursday, Nagin's frustration was palpable.

"I've been out there man. I flew in these helicopters, been in the crowds talking to people crying, don't know where their relatives are. I've done it all man, and I'll tell you man, I keep hearing that it's coming. This is coming, that is coming. And my answer to that today is BS, where is the beef? Because there is no beef in this city. "

Nagin said, "Get every Greyhound bus in the country and get them moving."

Nagin called for a moratorium on press conferences "until the resources are in this city."

"They're feeding the people a line of bull, and they are spinning and people are dying," he said.

"I don't know whether it's the governor's problem, or it's the president's problem, but somebody needs to get ... on a plane and sit down, the two of them, and figure this out right now," Nagin said.

"They thinking small, man, and this is a major, major deal."

The mayor said except for a few "knuckleheads," the looting is the result of desperate people just trying to find food and water to survive.

Nagin blamed the outbreak of crime and violence on drug addicts who are cut off from their drug supplies and wandering the city "looking to take the edge off their jones."

Nagin is in his first term as mayor. He was sworn in May 2002. A Democrat, he was a popular reform candidate who promised to clean up the city's political corruption. He's a former cable company executive.
nyk4ever
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9/2/2005  9:28 AM
Posted by BRIGGS:


Sorry, I don't agree. First off, there were tens of THOUSANDS of individuals who just didnt have the means to pick up and leave. My bet is they many did not understand what the magnitude of a category 5 hurricane could actually do to the cities.

Im sorry, I must have missed it when Goerge Bush got on National TV to warn the people to evacuate. Don't you think that top scientists briefed him well before the thing came to land what could happen? Don't you think it's the President of the United States responsibility to look out for the welfare of everyone in the US? He sure has a lot of interest in the people of Iraq to the tune of 300B and 2,100 soldiers, decaying alliances, a crumbling nation, poverty levels rising, energy problems spiraling out of control--yet it took him two days of devestation and 4-5 days of warnings of what may happen for him to get off his fat arse that had already been sitting in Texas for a month. Let me ask this question as well-he says we are at war--did Presidents of WW2 WW1 go sit at their ranch for a month during these wars? This guy is an ABSOLUTE national disgrace, a disaster who has such an overwhelming ego that he could never stop and say, maybe Im wrong here. No President Bush failed the American people, he shouldve been on national TV 2-3 days before this thing actually covered NO et al because he KNEW it could happen--he was home playing crochet and biking. Only 1 mistake those 9-11 terrorist made, they needed to ram one of those planes down George Bushes arse.

I dont agree Briggs. It should NOT take the President of the United States too tell people that are living in a city that is 27 feet under sealevel and surrounded by levees(that can only sustain a Category 3 hurricane) that a CATEGORY 5 HURRICANE is coming right for your city and that you damn well better get the hell out. I don't remember Bill Clinton coming on TV and telling people to evacuate Florida in 1992 when Hurricane Andrew hit(Category 4 in it's own right,) were you blaming Bubba back then for his "shortcomings" in evacuating the people?

I understand this is a extremely sad situation but I think when you are blaming the NATIONAL GOVERNMENT is just you placing the blame in the wrong area. With the handling of the situation after you sure as hell got a point, its been pitiful and you can blame Bush all you want in that respect.

[Edited by - nyk4ever on 09-02-2005 09:38 AM]
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nyvector16
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9/2/2005  9:53 AM
The three items below do a good job of illustrating how it is that this administration is partially to blame for the levees not holding up...

- A year ago the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers proposed to study how New Orleans could be protected from a catastrophic hurricane, but the Bush administration ordered that the research not be undertaken.

- In 2004, the Bush administration cut funding requested by the New Orleans district of the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers for holding back the waters of Lake Pontchartrain by more than 80 percent.

- In 1990, a federal task force began restoring lost wetlands surrounding New Orleans. Every two miles of wetland between the Crescent City and the Gulf reduces a surge by half a foot. Bush had promised "no net loss" of wetlands, a policy launched by his father's administration and bolstered by President Clinton. But he reversed his approach in 2003, unleashing the developers.


Now.. as far as the evacuation...
You can't just say the people in New Orleans were given ample warning.. and if they stay it is their own faults for the misery they are experiencing..
You can't assume that thousands of elderly will simply just walk out of the city.. You can't assume the disabled will jsut pick up their crutches and wheel chairs and exit the city... You can't.... THey had to be evacuated with help... Help that was sorely lacking...


Of course you can't blame the president for a natural disaster...
But you sure as hell can blame him for his prior decisions that ultimately made a bad situation worse...
arkrud
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9/2/2005  10:11 AM
I don't think you are getting the point about Bush and company.
It's nothing personal. He is a part of the political system we have.
It doesn't really matter Bush or Kerry, Dems or Reps, it's just not working well any more.
This country is sold down to multinational corporations together with all of us.
And they don't care any more about American people including New Orleans.

We need people that will do what is good for US and US people, not for Saudi kings, Oil, drag, farma, and Military companies. Because is not the same thing any more.
We are going into the time like 60th and we need change. We lost the chance to do it slowly by reelecting Bush again - now it will be faster and much more painful
"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy." Hamlet
Knight
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9/2/2005  10:16 AM
To put it objectively, I think anyone who insinuates in any way that George Bush does not care about the people who are suffering in New Orleans has their head up their ass.
"He only went to Georgia Tech for one year, and that's an engineering school." -LB
Knight
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9/2/2005  10:25 AM
Posted by Rich:
Posted by Knight:
Posted by Silverfuel:


I'll give you an example. FACT: Terrorists used planes to attack the Twin Towers in NY. Thats a fact and you cant really spin it anyway you want like you said before.

Not everyone in the world sees the people who flew the planes into the towers as "terrorists". Sorry, that's not a fact.

Assumptions must be confined to the universe of reasonable people. They were terrorists to any reasonable person. That assertion is indisputable, just as it is indisputable that people had warned about the risk of the levees collapsing if a big hurricane hit New Orleans, contrary to Bush's assertion to Diane Sawyer on "Good Morning America" yesterday morning ("I don't think anyone anticipated the breach of the levees."), and as it is indisputable that Bush cut funding to FEMA (as is proven by facts cited earlier in this thread).


"Reasonable" people used to believe that the earth was flat, that the earth was the center of the universe, that non-caucasian races were inferior, that women were inferior to men...reasonable people are not infallible.
"He only went to Georgia Tech for one year, and that's an engineering school." -LB
arkrud
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9/2/2005  10:25 AM
I never sad he is personally ignorant. But his personal opinion cannot change the way this government did and do the things. They betrayed this people before Katrina by taking money off the New Orleans for Iraq and other "profitable" projects. Now he can cry and pray - but non of this will bring dead people back and help to rebuilt their lives
"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy." Hamlet
Knight
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9/2/2005  10:27 AM
I guess before we go to war we should check the weather forecast for 3 years down the road to determine if any hurricanes may strike. That's the lesson we learned I guess.
"He only went to Georgia Tech for one year, and that's an engineering school." -LB
martin
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9/2/2005  10:33 AM
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/09/02/opinion/02krugman.html

A Can't-Do Government
By PAUL KRUGMAN

Before 9/11 the Federal Emergency Management Agency listed the three most likely catastrophic disasters facing America: a terrorist attack on New York, a major earthquake in San Francisco and a hurricane strike on New Orleans. "The New Orleans hurricane scenario," The Houston Chronicle wrote in December 2001, "may be the deadliest of all." It described a potential catastrophe very much like the one now happening.

So why were New Orleans and the nation so unprepared? After 9/11, hard questions were deferred in the name of national unity, then buried under a thick coat of whitewash. This time, we need accountability.

First question: Why have aid and security taken so long to arrive? Katrina hit five days ago - and it was already clear by last Friday that Katrina could do immense damage along the Gulf Coast. Yet the response you'd expect from an advanced country never happened. Thousands of Americans are dead or dying, not because they refused to evacuate, but because they were too poor or too sick to get out without help - and help wasn't provided. Many have yet to receive any help at all.

There will and should be many questions about the response of state and local governments; in particular, couldn't they have done more to help the poor and sick escape? But the evidence points, above all, to a stunning lack of both preparation and urgency in the federal government's response.

Even military resources in the right place weren't ordered into action. "On Wednesday," said an editorial in The Sun Herald in Biloxi, Miss., "reporters listening to horrific stories of death and survival at the Biloxi Junior High School shelter looked north across Irish Hill Road and saw Air Force personnel playing basketball and performing calisthenics. Playing basketball and performing calisthenics!"

Maybe administration officials believed that the local National Guard could keep order and deliver relief. But many members of the National Guard and much of its equipment - including high-water vehicles - are in Iraq. "The National Guard needs that equipment back home to support the homeland security mission," a Louisiana Guard officer told reporters several weeks ago.

Second question: Why wasn't more preventive action taken? After 2003 the Army Corps of Engineers sharply slowed its flood-control work, including work on sinking levees. "The corps," an Editor and Publisher article says, citing a series of articles in The Times-Picayune in New Orleans, "never tried to hide the fact that the spending pressures of the war in Iraq, as well as homeland security - coming at the same time as federal tax cuts - was the reason for the strain."

In 2002 the corps' chief resigned, reportedly under threat of being fired, after he criticized the administration's proposed cuts in the corps' budget, including flood-control spending.

Third question: Did the Bush administration destroy FEMA's effectiveness? The administration has, by all accounts, treated the emergency management agency like an unwanted stepchild, leading to a mass exodus of experienced professionals.

Last year James Lee Witt, who won bipartisan praise for his leadership of the agency during the Clinton years, said at a Congressional hearing: "I am extremely concerned that the ability of our nation to prepare for and respond to disasters has been sharply eroded. I hear from emergency managers, local and state leaders, and first responders nearly every day that the FEMA they knew and worked well with has now disappeared."

I don't think this is a simple tale of incompetence. The reason the military wasn't rushed in to help along the Gulf Coast is, I believe, the same reason nothing was done to stop looting after the fall of Baghdad. Flood control was neglected for the same reason our troops in Iraq didn't get adequate armor.

At a fundamental level, I'd argue, our current leaders just aren't serious about some of the essential functions of government. They like waging war, but they don't like providing security, rescuing those in need or spending on preventive measures. And they never, ever ask for shared sacrifice.

Yesterday Mr. Bush made an utterly fantastic claim: that nobody expected the breach of the levees. In fact, there had been repeated warnings about exactly that risk.

So America, once famous for its can-do attitude, now has a can't-do government that makes excuses instead of doing its job. And while it makes those excuses, Americans are dying.
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nyvector16
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9/2/2005  10:39 AM
Posted by Knight:

I guess before we go to war we should check the weather forecast for 3 years down the road to determine if any hurricanes may strike. That's the lesson we learned I guess.


How about the following for a lesson:

Do not launch a pre-emptive War based on a false pretense.
Do not overextend your military and try to hide the fact that you are lacking troops by Forcing Active Duty Patriotic americans to serve beyond their enlistments via stop-loss.
Do not callously give special interest and big business a blank check to do as they will with our precious environmental resources...

I could go on and on.. but I think I am getting my point across...
Knight
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9/2/2005  10:40 AM
"Yesterday Mr. Bush made an utterly fantastic claim: that nobody expected the breach of the levees. In fact, there had been repeated warnings about exactly that risk."

So some people thought there was a risk, some didn't, hind-sight is 20/20--that's all this is. I don't know what could have been done to stop a hurricane--build a giant wall? A giant umbrella? Seriously, the only thing that needed to be done was get the hell out of there, that's it. You can't predict all of the events in the event of a hurricane--you can't plan for every contingency. You can't predict whether people will loot and shoot and cause mass hysteria. Now the task should be simply to get help to the people who need it...and it's not as easy as every anti-Bush person makes it out to be.
"He only went to Georgia Tech for one year, and that's an engineering school." -LB
arkrud
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9/2/2005  10:42 AM
I guess before we go to war we should check the weather forecast for 3 years down the road to determine if any hurricanes may strike. That's the lesson we learned I guess.
It's too sad. I was leaving 33 years in another Empire - Soviet Union. I saw the government ignoring the science and common sense for political agenda. And sow this Empire falling down in no time. Are we going to learn the lesson?
"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy." Hamlet
fishmike
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9/2/2005  10:43 AM
To put it objectively, I think anyone who insinuates in any way that George Bush does not care about the people who are suffering in New Orleans has their head up their ass.
nobody is saying that. I hate Bush with a passion but I have no doubt these events have caused him a heavy heart. He's doing a bad job right now, and his policy has made a catastrophic event worse.

I guess before we go to war we should check the weather forecast for 3 years down the road to determine if any hurricanes may strike. That's the lesson we learned I guess.
Part of being a leader and running a country is having a simple system of checks and balances. You have plenty of history to work with here. The question is simple: how will the war in Iraq affect our resources to deal with the problems that surface, and is it worth it?

When you stretch the military as you have it hurts your ability to assist in border control and natural disaster. Is Iraq worth that? I would have to Afghanastan was, Iraq is not. Sorry... bad leadership. The guy is awfull. Hopefully the red states remember this crap in 3 years, and arent caught up in the *real* issues like gay marriage.
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Knight
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9/2/2005  10:46 AM
Posted by nyvector16:
Posted by Knight:

I guess before we go to war we should check the weather forecast for 3 years down the road to determine if any hurricanes may strike. That's the lesson we learned I guess.


How about the following for a lesson:

Do not launch a pre-emptive War based on a false pretense.
Do not overextend your military and try to hide the fact that you are lacking troops by Forcing Active Duty Patriotic americans to serve beyond their enlistments via stop-loss.
Do not callously give special interest and big business a blank check to do as they will with our precious environmental resources...

I could go on and on.. but I think I am getting my point across...


Not everyone feels the same way about the war as you do, I don't know why you would assume that.
"He only went to Georgia Tech for one year, and that's an engineering school." -LB
martin
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9/2/2005  10:46 AM
Posted by Knight:

I guess before we go to war we should check the weather forecast for 3 years down the road to determine if any hurricanes may strike. That's the lesson we learned I guess.


Knight, you are being a little sarcastic here. You know that no one can reasonably forecast weather or other spectacular events, but you CAN plan accordingly, and it's the planning part that is killing - literally and figuratively - the American people. We vote and hire high-ranking officials and give them access to big bucks, power, and influence for the planning (and execution) part of their job. I mean really, after 9/11 a big part of the gov't focus was disaster planning. A big part of Iraq is planning and executing, and more planning for both failure and sucess, planning for the unknown and the what-ifs. That's what leaders are supposed to do, and those who don't will often times get caught with their proverbial pants down and fail. In this case, in NO, failure means death, destruction, starvation, disease, etc.
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fishmike
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9/2/2005  10:52 AM
Posted by Knight:

"Yesterday Mr. Bush made an utterly fantastic claim: that nobody expected the breach of the levees. In fact, there had been repeated warnings about exactly that risk."

So some people thought there was a risk, some didn't, hind-sight is 20/20--that's all this is. I don't know what could have been done to stop a hurricane--build a giant wall? A giant umbrella? Seriously, the only thing that needed to be done was get the hell out of there, that's it. You can't predict all of the events in the event of a hurricane--you can't plan for every contingency. You can't predict whether people will loot and shoot and cause mass hysteria. Now the task should be simply to get help to the people who need it...and it's not as easy as every anti-Bush person makes it out to be.
you cant plan for every contingency, but here is a case where people were trying and Bush's policy directly affected them from doing so. Thats pretty black and white to me.

Knight... why did we go to war in Iraq? I want an answer to this question since you wrote:
Not everyone feels the same way about the war as you do, I don't know why you would assume that.


"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
OT--USA military shouldve helped get the people out of nO BEFORE the fact

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