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All around the League: 2020-21 season!
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MaTT4281
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3/28/2021  1:14 PM

Too bad Philly's roster is full (now that they have Iggy).

AUTOADVERT
Knicksfan
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3/28/2021  1:26 PM
TPercy wrote:

Looks like Horford is the way.

Doesn’t seem to be available as a buyout pickup, so nothing then?

Knicks_Fan
KnickDanger
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3/28/2021  11:21 PM
Charlotte and Atlanta lose tonight so Knicks currently in fourth place in the East. Of course only two games separate them from Indiana in the ninth spot!
smackeddog
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3/29/2021  5:18 PM
Phew!

Wonder what this means for Rivers?

Nalod
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3/29/2021  6:11 PM
smackeddog wrote:Phew!

Wonder what this means for Rivers?

He home with his baby and happy.
Perhaps he’ll be in Philly soon enough.

ESOMKnicks
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3/30/2021  6:33 AM
KnickDanger wrote:Charlotte and Atlanta lose tonight so Knicks currently in fourth place in the East. Of course only two games separate them from Indiana in the ninth spot!

Chicago and Indiana in the best spots right now. Still in the lottery with a chance to make some noise in the playoffs. While 7th and 8th places are the worst of both worlds.

I still do not get it: what are we trying to achieve this year and why?

TPercy
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3/30/2021  10:56 AM
ESOMKnicks wrote:
KnickDanger wrote:Charlotte and Atlanta lose tonight so Knicks currently in fourth place in the East. Of course only two games separate them from Indiana in the ninth spot!

Chicago and Indiana in the best spots right now. Still in the lottery with a chance to make some noise in the playoffs. While 7th and 8th places are the worst of both worlds.

I still do not get it: what are we trying to achieve this year and why?

Progress. Winning basketball teams don’t go from lottery to championship teams in one season.

The Future is Bright!
Vmart
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3/30/2021  1:23 PM
TPercy wrote:
ESOMKnicks wrote:
KnickDanger wrote:Charlotte and Atlanta lose tonight so Knicks currently in fourth place in the East. Of course only two games separate them from Indiana in the ninth spot!

Chicago and Indiana in the best spots right now. Still in the lottery with a chance to make some noise in the playoffs. While 7th and 8th places are the worst of both worlds.

I still do not get it: what are we trying to achieve this year and why?

Progress. Winning basketball teams don’t go from lottery to championship teams in one season.

Progress? We have vets that won’t get the team over the top. Randle is playing lights out. RJ is making progress. Rest not so much. Quickly is nice pick up. After that all other young players look lost. And getting sporadic minutes. Young player progress isn’t up to par.

ESOMKnicks
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3/30/2021  4:31 PM    LAST EDITED: 3/30/2021  4:42 PM
Vmart wrote:
TPercy wrote:
Progress. Winning basketball teams don’t go from lottery to championship teams in one season.

Progress? We have vets that won’t get the team over the top. Randle is playing lights out. RJ is making progress. Rest not so much. Quickly is nice pick up. After that all other young players look lost. And getting sporadic minutes. Young player progress isn’t up to par.

I would also add that winning teams picked in the lottery in the 2003 draft. You win a lot more with LeBron than with "building a winning culture"

TPercy
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3/30/2021  5:06 PM
Vmart wrote:
TPercy wrote:
ESOMKnicks wrote:
KnickDanger wrote:Charlotte and Atlanta lose tonight so Knicks currently in fourth place in the East. Of course only two games separate them from Indiana in the ninth spot!

Chicago and Indiana in the best spots right now. Still in the lottery with a chance to make some noise in the playoffs. While 7th and 8th places are the worst of both worlds.

I still do not get it: what are we trying to achieve this year and why?

Progress. Winning basketball teams don’t go from lottery to championship teams in one season.

Progress? We have vets that won’t get the team over the top. Randle is playing lights out. RJ is making progress. Rest not so much. Quickly is nice pick up. After that all other young players look lost. And getting sporadic minutes. Young player progress isn’t up to par.


We went from being the worst team in the league to having a winning record(so far) with 3 good picks and 65+mmm in cap space moving forward. As you said Randle is playing lights out, meaning he went from being a waste of 18mm of cap space to being an important piece in our building block towards a championship team. RJ has made incredible progress. We have a 6th man of the year in Quicks. Mitch has also made considerable progress(remember when he used to foul out every 10 mins?).Also, are we forgetting we are a top 5 defensive team in the league? I just don't understand how people can seriously trying to win is a bad thing.
The Future is Bright!
TPercy
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3/30/2021  5:11 PM
ESOMKnicks wrote:
Vmart wrote:
TPercy wrote:
Progress. Winning basketball teams don’t go from lottery to championship teams in one season.

Progress? We have vets that won’t get the team over the top. Randle is playing lights out. RJ is making progress. Rest not so much. Quickly is nice pick up. After that all other young players look lost. And getting sporadic minutes. Young player progress isn’t up to par.

I would also add that winning teams picked in the lottery in the 2003 draft. You win a lot more with LeBron than with "building a winning culture"

So what do you want to happen? The only surefire gamechangers in this draft are in the top 5/6. I don't want to put words in your mouth but it seem like you want to us tank which would have meant trading away all of good vets for picks just so that we can get a bad record and STILL get screwed on a top 5 pick. Tanking dosen't work anymore. Chicago and Indiana are not in those positions because they are being strategic. They are just ass right now.

The Future is Bright!
ESOMKnicks
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3/31/2021  3:37 AM    LAST EDITED: 3/31/2021  3:39 AM
TPercy wrote:
ESOMKnicks wrote:
Vmart wrote:
TPercy wrote:
Progress. Winning basketball teams don’t go from lottery to championship teams in one season.

Progress? We have vets that won’t get the team over the top. Randle is playing lights out. RJ is making progress. Rest not so much. Quickly is nice pick up. After that all other young players look lost. And getting sporadic minutes. Young player progress isn’t up to par.

I would also add that winning teams picked in the lottery in the 2003 draft. You win a lot more with LeBron than with "building a winning culture"

So what do you want to happen? The only surefire gamechangers in this draft are in the top 5/6. I don't want to put words in your mouth but it seem like you want to us tank which would have meant trading away all of good vets for picks just so that we can get a bad record and STILL get screwed on a top 5 pick. Tanking dosen't work anymore. Chicago and Indiana are not in those positions because they are being strategic. They are just ass right now.

Yes, I wanted us to tank this season. The only reason not to tank right now is that maybe it is too late. Maybe not. I do not want us to trade any good vets because we have none, would have preferred the coaching staff to give more playing time to the young guys, like Knox, Frank and Obi, even if it meant a bad record, rather than chase a meaningless early playoff exit.
Tanking does not ALWAYS work, but just because we fell in the lottery several times does not mean we will always get screwed by the envelopes. Tanking worked just fine for San Antonio, Cleveland, Phoenix and now for the Warriors. Whether it was intentional or not, it does not really matter. And people now only remember their championships, dynasties, pedigree, winning culture etc etc, and do not remember the shameless tanking that preceded all that.

TPercy
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3/31/2021  9:26 AM
ESOMKnicks wrote:
TPercy wrote:
ESOMKnicks wrote:
Vmart wrote:
TPercy wrote:
Progress. Winning basketball teams don’t go from lottery to championship teams in one season.

Progress? We have vets that won’t get the team over the top. Randle is playing lights out. RJ is making progress. Rest not so much. Quickly is nice pick up. After that all other young players look lost. And getting sporadic minutes. Young player progress isn’t up to par.

I would also add that winning teams picked in the lottery in the 2003 draft. You win a lot more with LeBron than with "building a winning culture"

So what do you want to happen? The only surefire gamechangers in this draft are in the top 5/6. I don't want to put words in your mouth but it seem like you want to us tank which would have meant trading away all of good vets for picks just so that we can get a bad record and STILL get screwed on a top 5 pick. Tanking dosen't work anymore. Chicago and Indiana are not in those positions because they are being strategic. They are just ass right now.

Yes, I wanted us to tank this season. The only reason not to tank right now is that maybe it is too late. Maybe not. I do not want us to trade any good vets because we have none, would have preferred the coaching staff to give more playing time to the young guys, like Knox, Frank and Obi, even if it meant a bad record, rather than chase a meaningless early playoff exit.
Tanking does not ALWAYS work, but just because we fell in the lottery several times does not mean we will always get screwed by the envelopes. Tanking worked just fine for San Antonio, Cleveland, Phoenix and now for the Warriors. Whether it was intentional or not, it does not really matter. And people now only remember their championships, dynasties, pedigree, winning culture etc etc, and do not remember the shameless tanking that preceded all that.

There is more than 1 route to an NBA championship. It is possible to build slowly through draft/FA/trades and still assemble a championship level team. The Nets didn’t get their roster from tanking. Neither did Utah. Neither did that Toronto team that won 2 years ago. Mitch was a second round pick. IQ is a late first round pick. You can still get quality talent in the draft no matter the stage( especially this one if you’ve been following) it just comes down to good scouting.

I want a guy like Cade as much as the next guy but the mere thought of being a laughing stock for the 5th season in a row just so that we can end up with the 6th pick is sickening. The rules have changed recently as well to discourage tanking making it even more likelier we continue to get screwed. Count me out of that.

The Future is Bright!
ESOMKnicks
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3/31/2021  11:41 AM    LAST EDITED: 3/31/2021  12:23 PM
TPercy wrote:
There is more than 1 route to an NBA championship. It is possible to build slowly through draft/FA/trades and still assemble a championship level team. The Nets didn’t get their roster from tanking. Neither did Utah. Neither did that Toronto team that won 2 years ago. Mitch was a second round pick. IQ is a late first round pick. You can still get quality talent in the draft no matter the stage( especially this one if you’ve been following) it just comes down to good scouting.

I want a guy like Cade as much as the next guy but the mere thought of being a laughing stock for the 5th season in a row just so that we can end up with the 6th pick is sickening. The rules have changed recently as well to discourage tanking making it even more likelier we continue to get screwed. Count me out of that.

The Nets had traded away all their picks, so their only way was to be patient and make a big splash in free agency, in which they succeeded. The fact that they made several smart player selections and developed the likes of Allen, Caris, Dinwiddie and Joe Harris was an added bonus. It so happens that they are already stacked and out of picks for the upcoming generational draft. If they fail to win a championship this year or next, they will once again be laughed at for mortgaging away their future over starphuking.
Utah hit the jackpot with Donovan. If RJ becomes like Donovan and Randle keeps up his current level of play for another 3 years, then yeah, we will be as good as Utah. But are they a contender?
Toronto is a nice case, but feels like a bit of a fluke how they got the league's best player for a single-season rental to win the trophy. But if our current level of play gets us Kawhi as an FA this coming offseason, then yeah, I will be the first one to admit that our current strategy has been the best one and Cade be damned.

KnickDanger
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3/31/2021  1:24 PM
ESOMKnicks wrote:
TPercy wrote:
There is more than 1 route to an NBA championship. It is possible to build slowly through draft/FA/trades and still assemble a championship level team. The Nets didn’t get their roster from tanking. Neither did Utah. Neither did that Toronto team that won 2 years ago. Mitch was a second round pick. IQ is a late first round pick. You can still get quality talent in the draft no matter the stage( especially this one if you’ve been following) it just comes down to good scouting.

I want a guy like Cade as much as the next guy but the mere thought of being a laughing stock for the 5th season in a row just so that we can end up with the 6th pick is sickening. The rules have changed recently as well to discourage tanking making it even more likelier we continue to get screwed. Count me out of that.

The Nets had traded away all their picks, so their only way was to be patient and make a big splash in free agency, in which they succeeded. The fact that they made several smart player selections and developed the likes of Allen, Caris, Dinwiddie and Joe Harris was an added bonus. It so happens that they are already stacked and out of picks for the upcoming generational draft. If they fail to win a championship this year or next, they will once again be laughed at for mortgaging away their future over starphuking.
Utah hit the jackpot with Donovan. If RJ becomes like Donovan and Randle keeps up his current level of play for another 3 years, then yeah, we will be as good as Utah. But are they a contender?
Toronto is a nice case, but feels like a bit of a fluke how they got the league's best player for a single-season rental to win the trophy. But if our current level of play gets us Kawhi as an FA this coming offseason, then yeah, I will be the first one to admit that our current strategy has been the best one and Cade be damned.

Yes, no sure fire formula. As recent champions you have your Lebron and friends Heat/Cavs/Lakers and the more slow build Warriors and Raptors although there are a KD and Kahwi involved. Copycat Lebroners like the Clippers and Nets TBD (and yes the Nets get a lot of credit for getting and developing other valuable pieces on the fly). The more traditional built Bucks, Celtics, Jazz etc. to varying degrees are in the hunt (or falling away). Then you have the Tank poster boy 76ers (other perpetual tankers Timberwolves, Kings, OKC and on not in the conversation).

I'm not giving any deep analysis here, just going off the top of my head, but getting to the point of what is the template? I like the way we're doing it. The super friends concept seems to have worked (so far) only if one of them is Lebron. If the best tanking can show is Philly and a bunch of perpetual losers then that isn't for me. So you want draft picks and to use them at a maximum as much as possible and hopefully develop them. Smart FA signings and perhaps eventually a big fish. What this all says to me is that putting the organization first is the way to go. That seems to have been Rose's priority bless his heart. And now perhaps a little luck to go as the residue of design.

Nalod
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3/31/2021  1:27 PM
ESOMKnicks wrote:
TPercy wrote:
There is more than 1 route to an NBA championship. It is possible to build slowly through draft/FA/trades and still assemble a championship level team. The Nets didn’t get their roster from tanking. Neither did Utah. Neither did that Toronto team that won 2 years ago. Mitch was a second round pick. IQ is a late first round pick. You can still get quality talent in the draft no matter the stage( especially this one if you’ve been following) it just comes down to good scouting.

I want a guy like Cade as much as the next guy but the mere thought of being a laughing stock for the 5th season in a row just so that we can end up with the 6th pick is sickening. The rules have changed recently as well to discourage tanking making it even more likelier we continue to get screwed. Count me out of that.

The Nets had traded away all their picks, so their only way was to be patient and make a big splash in free agency, in which they succeeded. The fact that they made several smart player selections and developed the likes of Allen, Caris, Dinwiddie and Joe Harris was an added bonus. It so happens that they are already stacked and out of picks for the upcoming generational draft. If they fail to win a championship this year or next, they will once again be laughed at for mortgaging away their future over starphuking.
Utah hit the jackpot with Donovan. If RJ becomes like Donovan and Randle keeps up his current level of play for another 3 years, then yeah, we will be as good as Utah. But are they a contender?
Toronto is a nice case, but feels like a bit of a fluke how they got the league's best player for a single-season rental to win the trophy. But if our current level of play gets us Kawhi as an FA this coming offseason, then yeah, I will be the first one to admit that our current strategy has been the best one and Cade be damned.

Then there is the other side which was Boston who raped the Nets for KG and Pierce and not a ton to show for it given the on paper names they had.
Portland, Indy, Utah, are pepeutally well run but never great?
Philly who went thru gobs of pain and also have made more mistakes than jackpots still hang in their.
Miami rarely has lottery picks........
Minny still sucks!!!!
Cade is no sure fire super mega star. Not saying I don't want him but tanking should be "organic". Thunder have no reason or financial incentive the rest of this season. Sitting Al Horford is logical. They are playing the long game here. Cav's are still hung over by bad picks and bad trades. but they got their chip so it matters!!!
So many ways to build and phuck it up.
The path to success is rarely ever seen. As good as Zion is he can't carry them alone.
Cades trajectory is very very high. But not Jabbar like. Not transformative. Not Lebron.
NObody saw Jordan coming, so whose to say!

jskinny35
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3/31/2021  2:00 PM
I say let the season play out however it goes - playoffs or lottery. That said, if either the Dallas or NY pick is lottery bound - feel we should seriously consider packaging some talent/picks to move up if we could possibly land a top 5 pick. Purposely tanking is anti-Thibs so that wouldn't happen but I will admit it painful to reflect back on all those years when we moved back in the draft after winning a few late season/meaningless games...
ESOMKnicks
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3/31/2021  2:30 PM    LAST EDITED: 3/31/2021  2:39 PM
Nalod wrote:Cade is no sure fire super mega star....

Nalod wrote:Cades trajectory is very very high. But not Jabbar like. Not transformative. Not Lebron.
NObody saw Jordan coming, so whose to say!

I suppose this is the key to the debate: whether or not the Knicks should have tanked this year depends on how good one thinks Cade would become. I happen to think that the 2020s will be the Cade Decade. And Suggs - a very nice consolation prize. Which is why I think if there ever was a year to tank, this was it. Especially for the Knicks in their current situation looking for a rookie-contract superstar to go with RJ, to combine with a blockbuster FA signing and to dominate the league for years to come.

BigDaddyG
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3/31/2021  2:51 PM
jskinny35 wrote:I say let the season play out however it goes - playoffs or lottery. That said, if either the Dallas or NY pick is lottery bound - feel we should seriously consider packaging some talent/picks to move up if we could possibly land a top 5 pick. Purposely tanking is anti-Thibs so that wouldn't happen but I will admit it painful to reflect back on all those years when we moved back in the draft after winning a few late season/meaningless games...

This is sound. It's been so long since this team has been in the middle of a playoff race that I feel fans are going crazy. The reality is that this team has a number of holes and still needs to be evaluated over the course of the season. Even the Nets took a few years to get to where they are now. Unfortunately, it will be unrealistic for the team to move up in the top 5 in way that will sustain growth. Just have to stay patient and look out for other ways to aquire stud players.

Always... always remember: Less is less. More is more. More is better and twice as much is good too. Not enough is bad, and too much is never enough except when it's just about right. - The Tick
smackeddog
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3/31/2021  3:42 PM
All around the League: 2020-21 season!

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