meloanyk wrote:

nixluva wrote:

meloanyk wrote:

holfresh wrote:

meloanyk wrote:

holfresh wrote:This is kind of silly that you will actually pretend the articles I posted agree with your point of view..Ok..Not many things surprised me but that did..No more comments on that..

If you agree that Russia broke international law then why would you say the sanctions were politically motivated???..I do also noticed that it's the latest Republican narrative...They didn't have that opinion in 2013 when it was first applied...I wonder what might have occurred that might change their opinion on the matter...

Obama wasn't the first US President to abstain on a settlement vote, as a matter of fact Reagan was the last..So how is it political in nature???..It was the political norm to abstain according to Jim Baker, Reagan's Secretary of State, today on Meet to Press...Look it up...

I know you said Biden and not Kerry..

Anyway, I assume that you are aware of the recent sanctions on Russian intelligence and ambassadors which were politically inspired Imo as was the recent lecture to Israel by Biden.

I really not as engaged in the conversation because you aren't being an honest broker...I can't waste time making an argument when you act like it actually supports your point of view when clearly it doesn't..

Also you seem to be pointing out things you may have written I didn't respond to..I really didn't read it due to your format...

Please do continue to comment so I can correct.

You might want to reread what I said about the crime bill, started the drop in rates for several years, continued thru Bush and Obama admins, pushed for by black leadership and enacted by Clinton, later criticized for impacting black family formation, other factors in play that contributed, President legislated sentencing, lowered imprisonment, other factors in play that contributed etc

I do appreciate all your googling though

Did I say sanctions in 2013 were warranted or politically motivated?. Let me know. Do you simply think you can disregard the timing of the bashing of Israel? Yeh, ur a honest broker. Poor form by President Obama and not in the nation's best interest. I know I said Biden instead of Kerry, do you see a denial, happens when you type several responses at midnight in a long format and dont take the time to recheck. Ill leave that task up to you

Still waiting on the school voucher opinion given little progress, know it takes time to find. Have those fbi stats yet?

I haven't read enough about school vouchers and charter schools to formulate an opinion on it..I don't adapt a party stance because it's convenient to do so...It usually have to make sense..Like I don't have to ask you opinion on global warming..I know what it is...

Regarding the Crime Bill..The first article I posted said studies showed crimes rates started to drop before the legislation was enacted in 1994...The other articles confirmed that other factors like higher employment, etc, etc were more instrumental in crime rate than the bill itself...You first said the Crime Bill was the reason for the drop in crime which was incorrect...So I'm not sure why you think these articles confirmed what you were saying...

So you were talking about the timing of Kerry's response to Israel??..What does that have to do with anything???..There was a vote on the resolution..Trump and Netanyahu commented on the Administration motivation and played footsie with each other, Kerry responded for the administration on why it took such action or more precisely lack of action??..We aren't allow to respond to the mighty nation of Israel when they level unsolicited charges at us saying we conspired to get this vote and who we also give 3.8 billion in aid annually of tax [payer money?????????ARE YOU AN AMERICAN OR DOES YOU PASSPORT SAY REPUBLICAN???????

More gibber. Im a registered Dem and think my onlycomment on climate change was that Im not a scientist but it appears real. Perhaps you can check back and let me know if that was verbatim or a generally correct.

Im surprised that you as an active googler and concerned have not 'formulated" an opinion since the issue of school vouchers has been around and educational achievement is such a key to black advancement. I realize that copying trump's moronic tweets are time consuming

U.K. also abstained on the resolution but our closest ally also went out of their way to heavily criticize Kerry's speech saying they did not think it " appropriate to attack the composition of the democratically elected government of an ally" nor was our focus on settlements proper given the complexity of that situation. U.K "splits, scolds, criticizes, lashes, denounces, condemns " were some of the various headlines. After eight years of saying nothing publicly, another move done to hinder Trump and not done in the nations best interest and the British saw right thru it.

Today, the NYT reports on the shifting alliance of Turkey towards Russia while they shun the U.S. Seems our important NATO ally is critical of our support and making veiled threats to suspend support to us in Iraq. Yeh, let's resume the Cold War while others communicate and cooperate when there is common ground.

Charter Schools are not the complete answer to Black Education. In theory they could be better but first let's understand that they didn't create the concept of Charter Schools to address the needs of Black Students. As usual i'm gonna have to take you on a History Lesson. American Tax Payer Public Schools were originally started for Black Students.

Black schools[edit]
Further information: Black school and History of education in Missouri

In the early days of the Reconstruction era, the Freedmen's Bureau opened 1000 schools across the South for black children. This was essentially building on schools that had been established in numerous large contraband camps. Freedmen were eager for schooling for both adults and children, and the enrollments were high and enthusiastic. Overall, the Bureau spent $5 million to set up schools for blacks. By the end of 1865, more than 90,000 freedmen were enrolled as students in these schools. The school curriculum resembled that of schools in the North.[72]

Many Bureau teachers were well-educated Yankee women motivated by religion and abolitionism. Half the teachers were southern whites; one-third were blacks, and one-sixth were northern whites.[73] Most were women but among African Americans, male teachers slightly outnumbered female teachers. In the South, people were attracted to teaching because of the good salaries, at a time when the societies were disrupted and the economy was poor. Northern teachers were typically funded by northern organizations and were motivated by humanitarian goals to help the freedmen. As a group, only the black cohort showed a commitment to racial equality; they were also the ones most likely to continue as teachers.[74]

When the Republicans came to power in the Southern states after 1867, they created the first system of taxpayer-funded public schools. Southern Blacks wanted public schools for their children but they did not demand racially integrated schools. Almost all the new public schools were segregated, apart from a few in New Orleans. After the Republicans lost power in the mid-1870s, conservative whites retained the public school systems but sharply cut their funding. [75]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_education_in_the_United_States#Black_schools

A History of Private Schools & Race in the American South

Private schools may have a long, honorable tradition in America that goes back to colonial times, but that tradition ended, at least in the American South, in the last half of the 20th century when they were used as safe havens for Southern whites to escape the effects of the impending and ongoing desegregation mandates. This exodus from public schools began in the 1940s, when private school enrollment in the 15 states of the South[1] rose by more than 125,000 students—roughly 43 percent—in response to US Supreme Court decisions outlawing segregation in graduate and professional schools in the South.[2] While the decisions only concerned institutions of higher education, it signaled to watchful Southern leaders that desegregation might soon spread to their public elementary and secondary schools, compelling them to react in ways to defend their way of life.

Private schools in the South were established, expanded, and supported to preserve the Southern tradition of racial segregation in the face of the federal courts’ dismantling of “separate but equal.” White students left public schools in droves to both traditional and newly formed private schools. From 1950 to 1965 private school enrollment grew at unprecedented rates all over the nation, with the South having the largest growth.

http://www.southerneducation.org/Our-Strategies/Research-and-Publications/Race-Ethnicity-Landing-Pages/A-History-of-Private-Schools-Race-in-the-American.aspx

This move to Charter Schools is really more about Tax Dollars than anything else. Most of the White Students down in the South are in Private Schools but these people still pay Tax Dollars that go to Public Schools that are predominantly Black. One way around this would be a Charter School. You could effectively create a school in a White Neighborhood that was still somewhat segregated by distance like a Private School but paid for by Tax Dollars rather than having to kick out extra money for a Private School.

None of this solves the very real problem which is that we want ALL schools in this country to be quality places of Education. Charter schools by their very nature create an unequal education system. Not all Charter Schools are successful. What we need is to not be experimenting with our children but using the best methods of education for ALL of our students. The best schools still often end up being in the more affluent neighborhoods. Even if you put more Charters in Black Neighborhoods that doesn't solve the issue of Bad Schools that are still responsible for most of the children. The answer is to improve the Public School System everywhere.

As usual, pasting selected excerpts that offer a historical context, whether true gospel or not, simply serves as a preface not a current solution. As you may know, legislation has been enacted and numerous programs undertaken for decades attempting to improve public schools at great costs without much progress in closing achievement gaps at urban schools.

Racists will cite eugenics but most people see socio economics and underlying culture as depressants. That later belief is reinforced for me every time I speak to a deflated youngster at Teach for America or a defeated teacher at a urban NJ school. They cry for the kids who are deprived of the right environment to learn. In NJ, we have many high performing schools that are a stones throw away from low performing urbans so regional differences is not an issue nor is monies spent per student

You mention best methods. Not sure what that specifically refers to but assume it implies standardization across the board beyond monies like competent teachers, administrators, facilities. I will add involved parents and strong community leadership. Rhee was controversial but liked her for at least taking strong action in DC despite her many critics.

Common Core seems to make sense to me especially for its emphasis on STEM and urbans. Not federally mandated but believe President Obama gives incentives to states to adopt while Jeb was one of the few pubs who supported though he relabels. Our former Newark mayor ,Sen Booker supported charter schools and criticized Common Core though it now seems he shifts positions depending on the political winds. Guess the criticism of CC is it's teach to test, light on humanities and omits religion. Know some local families that have opted out of testing in protest. Love to hear a teacher's perspective on common core, choice and if their unions contribute to stunting progress on some fronts.

I ask about school vouchers because there are many conflicting views and stats depending on factors. Many believe that would lift and close gaps as well as save overall public school costs. Research on those claims vary. Trump and Devos are proponents though her appt. appears to have made no one happy. Agenda is a wide roll out, I personally think having choices can benefit some as it did in a Newark charter school using part of Zuckerberg 's donation but be difficult to productively implement on a wide scale.

I have 3 children that have gone thru their education as Honor Students and graduated from local Public Schools, went to college and are gainfully employed in their respective careers. I think that the solutions to the myriad of major issues are not simple and Charter Schools aren't the panacea to all of the long standing issues. Too often people use Vouchers and Charter Schools as some Magic Elixir. This isn't about helping SOME students. We need solutions for ALL students in this country. Charter Schools are fine but not to the detriment of the rest of the system as has been happening.

Just understand that there are those who don't want Public Schools to exist. Just as there are those that don't want the Post Office to exist so they block modernization efforts and put up roadblocks. These same goes with efforts to block Medicare Expansion and on and on. The same crap that has stopped any serious efforts for Immigration Reform. Progress on Climate Change thwarted. You have to dig deeper to understand the motives of those behind the scenes that want things to fail so they can get what they want. They play the long game and will sacrifice the progress of millions in order to get their way. We haven't made progress on so many issues for a reason. Those that profit from us not making that progress or for social reasons don't want things to change. As usual, Follow the money!!!

meloanyk wrote:

holfresh wrote:Jack Ma of Alibaba, the Amazon of China, just visited Trump...The SEC currently has questions about Alibaba accounting and thinks it flouts the rules of companies on the NYSE..Trump's new head of the SEC is a heavy investor of Alibaba..Can't make this shet up...

Headline about creating a million U.S. jobs is attention grabbing but that meeting is way too premature. Besides accounting questions that pervade many Chinese businesses, Baba should never had gotten SEC approval for their IPO given their business model involved counterfeited goods . Ma is addressing by having a large and expensive task force in place ( 200 + people 200 plus mil) to detect and minimize but they have a way to go and his commitment toward the sanctity of brands has to verified. It is no Amazon in substance.Ha, we can actually agree

holfresh wrote:

djsunyc wrote:

Been seeing lots of reports where Trump voters are all against Obamacare but don't want to lose it..One lady said she didn't have insurance before it and it's the only reason he has insurance..But she wants it repealed thinking the republicans will replace it..They won't have it effect people until after the midterms..

nixluva wrote:

meloanyk wrote:

nixluva wrote:

meloanyk wrote:

holfresh wrote:

meloanyk wrote:

holfresh wrote:This is kind of silly that you will actually pretend the articles I posted agree with your point of view..Ok..Not many things surprised me but that did..No more comments on that..

If you agree that Russia broke international law then why would you say the sanctions were politically motivated???..I do also noticed that it's the latest Republican narrative...They didn't have that opinion in 2013 when it was first applied...I wonder what might have occurred that might change their opinion on the matter...

Obama wasn't the first US President to abstain on a settlement vote, as a matter of fact Reagan was the last..So how is it political in nature???..It was the political norm to abstain according to Jim Baker, Reagan's Secretary of State, today on Meet to Press...Look it up...

I know you said Biden and not Kerry..

Anyway, I assume that you are aware of the recent sanctions on Russian intelligence and ambassadors which were politically inspired Imo as was the recent lecture to Israel by Biden.

I really not as engaged in the conversation because you aren't being an honest broker...I can't waste time making an argument when you act like it actually supports your point of view when clearly it doesn't..

Also you seem to be pointing out things you may have written I didn't respond to..I really didn't read it due to your format...

Please do continue to comment so I can correct.

You might want to reread what I said about the crime bill, started the drop in rates for several years, continued thru Bush and Obama admins, pushed for by black leadership and enacted by Clinton, later criticized for impacting black family formation, other factors in play that contributed, President legislated sentencing, lowered imprisonment, other factors in play that contributed etc

I do appreciate all your googling though

Did I say sanctions in 2013 were warranted or politically motivated?. Let me know. Do you simply think you can disregard the timing of the bashing of Israel? Yeh, ur a honest broker. Poor form by President Obama and not in the nation's best interest. I know I said Biden instead of Kerry, do you see a denial, happens when you type several responses at midnight in a long format and dont take the time to recheck. Ill leave that task up to you

Still waiting on the school voucher opinion given little progress, know it takes time to find. Have those fbi stats yet?

I haven't read enough about school vouchers and charter schools to formulate an opinion on it..I don't adapt a party stance because it's convenient to do so...It usually have to make sense..Like I don't have to ask you opinion on global warming..I know what it is...

Regarding the Crime Bill..The first article I posted said studies showed crimes rates started to drop before the legislation was enacted in 1994...The other articles confirmed that other factors like higher employment, etc, etc were more instrumental in crime rate than the bill itself...You first said the Crime Bill was the reason for the drop in crime which was incorrect...So I'm not sure why you think these articles confirmed what you were saying...

So you were talking about the timing of Kerry's response to Israel??..What does that have to do with anything???..There was a vote on the resolution..Trump and Netanyahu commented on the Administration motivation and played footsie with each other, Kerry responded for the administration on why it took such action or more precisely lack of action??..We aren't allow to respond to the mighty nation of Israel when they level unsolicited charges at us saying we conspired to get this vote and who we also give 3.8 billion in aid annually of tax [payer money?????????ARE YOU AN AMERICAN OR DOES YOU PASSPORT SAY REPUBLICAN???????

More gibber. Im a registered Dem and think my onlycomment on climate change was that Im not a scientist but it appears real. Perhaps you can check back and let me know if that was verbatim or a generally correct.

Im surprised that you as an active googler and concerned have not 'formulated" an opinion since the issue of school vouchers has been around and educational achievement is such a key to black advancement. I realize that copying trump's moronic tweets are time consuming

U.K. also abstained on the resolution but our closest ally also went out of their way to heavily criticize Kerry's speech saying they did not think it " appropriate to attack the composition of the democratically elected government of an ally" nor was our focus on settlements proper given the complexity of that situation. U.K "splits, scolds, criticizes, lashes, denounces, condemns " were some of the various headlines. After eight years of saying nothing publicly, another move done to hinder Trump and not done in the nations best interest and the British saw right thru it.

Today, the NYT reports on the shifting alliance of Turkey towards Russia while they shun the U.S. Seems our important NATO ally is critical of our support and making veiled threats to suspend support to us in Iraq. Yeh, let's resume the Cold War while others communicate and cooperate when there is common ground.

Charter Schools are not the complete answer to Black Education. In theory they could be better but first let's understand that they didn't create the concept of Charter Schools to address the needs of Black Students. As usual i'm gonna have to take you on a History Lesson. American Tax Payer Public Schools were originally started for Black Students.

Black schools[edit]
Further information: Black school and History of education in Missouri

In the early days of the Reconstruction era, the Freedmen's Bureau opened 1000 schools across the South for black children. This was essentially building on schools that had been established in numerous large contraband camps. Freedmen were eager for schooling for both adults and children, and the enrollments were high and enthusiastic. Overall, the Bureau spent $5 million to set up schools for blacks. By the end of 1865, more than 90,000 freedmen were enrolled as students in these schools. The school curriculum resembled that of schools in the North.[72]

Many Bureau teachers were well-educated Yankee women motivated by religion and abolitionism. Half the teachers were southern whites; one-third were blacks, and one-sixth were northern whites.[73] Most were women but among African Americans, male teachers slightly outnumbered female teachers. In the South, people were attracted to teaching because of the good salaries, at a time when the societies were disrupted and the economy was poor. Northern teachers were typically funded by northern organizations and were motivated by humanitarian goals to help the freedmen. As a group, only the black cohort showed a commitment to racial equality; they were also the ones most likely to continue as teachers.[74]

When the Republicans came to power in the Southern states after 1867, they created the first system of taxpayer-funded public schools. Southern Blacks wanted public schools for their children but they did not demand racially integrated schools. Almost all the new public schools were segregated, apart from a few in New Orleans. After the Republicans lost power in the mid-1870s, conservative whites retained the public school systems but sharply cut their funding. [75]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_education_in_the_United_States#Black_schools

A History of Private Schools & Race in the American South

Private schools may have a long, honorable tradition in America that goes back to colonial times, but that tradition ended, at least in the American South, in the last half of the 20th century when they were used as safe havens for Southern whites to escape the effects of the impending and ongoing desegregation mandates. This exodus from public schools began in the 1940s, when private school enrollment in the 15 states of the South[1] rose by more than 125,000 students—roughly 43 percent—in response to US Supreme Court decisions outlawing segregation in graduate and professional schools in the South.[2] While the decisions only concerned institutions of higher education, it signaled to watchful Southern leaders that desegregation might soon spread to their public elementary and secondary schools, compelling them to react in ways to defend their way of life.

Private schools in the South were established, expanded, and supported to preserve the Southern tradition of racial segregation in the face of the federal courts’ dismantling of “separate but equal.” White students left public schools in droves to both traditional and newly formed private schools. From 1950 to 1965 private school enrollment grew at unprecedented rates all over the nation, with the South having the largest growth.

http://www.southerneducation.org/Our-Strategies/Research-and-Publications/Race-Ethnicity-Landing-Pages/A-History-of-Private-Schools-Race-in-the-American.aspx

This move to Charter Schools is really more about Tax Dollars than anything else. Most of the White Students down in the South are in Private Schools but these people still pay Tax Dollars that go to Public Schools that are predominantly Black. One way around this would be a Charter School. You could effectively create a school in a White Neighborhood that was still somewhat segregated by distance like a Private School but paid for by Tax Dollars rather than having to kick out extra money for a Private School.

None of this solves the very real problem which is that we want ALL schools in this country to be quality places of Education. Charter schools by their very nature create an unequal education system. Not all Charter Schools are successful. What we need is to not be experimenting with our children but using the best methods of education for ALL of our students. The best schools still often end up being in the more affluent neighborhoods. Even if you put more Charters in Black Neighborhoods that doesn't solve the issue of Bad Schools that are still responsible for most of the children. The answer is to improve the Public School System everywhere.

As usual, pasting selected excerpts that offer a historical context, whether true gospel or not, simply serves as a preface not a current solution. As you may know, legislation has been enacted and numerous programs undertaken for decades attempting to improve public schools at great costs without much progress in closing achievement gaps at urban schools.

Racists will cite eugenics but most people see socio economics and underlying culture as depressants. That later belief is reinforced for me every time I speak to a deflated youngster at Teach for America or a defeated teacher at a urban NJ school. They cry for the kids who are deprived of the right environment to learn. In NJ, we have many high performing schools that are a stones throw away from low performing urbans so regional differences is not an issue nor is monies spent per student

You mention best methods. Not sure what that specifically refers to but assume it implies standardization across the board beyond monies like competent teachers, administrators, facilities. I will add involved parents and strong community leadership. Rhee was controversial but liked her for at least taking strong action in DC despite her many critics.

Common Core seems to make sense to me especially for its emphasis on STEM and urbans. Not federally mandated but believe President Obama gives incentives to states to adopt while Jeb was one of the few pubs who supported though he relabels. Our former Newark mayor ,Sen Booker supported charter schools and criticized Common Core though it now seems he shifts positions depending on the political winds. Guess the criticism of CC is it's teach to test, light on humanities and omits religion. Know some local families that have opted out of testing in protest. Love to hear a teacher's perspective on common core, choice and if their unions contribute to stunting progress on some fronts.

I ask about school vouchers because there are many conflicting views and stats depending on factors. Many believe that would lift and close gaps as well as save overall public school costs. Research on those claims vary. Trump and Devos are proponents though her appt. appears to have made no one happy. Agenda is a wide roll out, I personally think having choices can benefit some as it did in a Newark charter school using part of Zuckerberg 's donation but be difficult to productively implement on a wide scale.

I posted the excerpts in order to provide clarification about how we got here and what the STILL underlying motives are behind the creation of Charter Schools. It's not all altruistic as they want people to believe. Just like everything in this country there are very real hidden agendas behind Charter Schools that have nothing to do with trying to improve things for Minority Students. If you like I can dig even deeper on this subject but I feel it's not really necessary.

I have 3 children that have gone thru their education as Honor Students and graduated from local Public Schools, went to college and are gainfully employed in their respective careers. I think that the solutions to the myriad of major issues are not simple and Charter Schools aren't the panacea to all of the long standing issues. Too often people use Vouchers and Charter Schools as some Magic Elixir. This isn't about helping SOME students. We need solutions for ALL students in this country. Charter Schools are fine but not to the detriment of the rest of the system as has been happening.

Just understand that there are those who don't want Public Schools to exist. Just as there are those that don't want the Post Office to exist so they block modernization efforts and put up roadblocks. These same goes with efforts to block Medicare Expansion and on and on. The same crap that has stopped any serious efforts for Immigration Reform. Progress on Climate Change thwarted. You have to dig deeper to understand the motives of those behind the scenes that want things to fail so they can get what they want. They play the long game and will sacrifice the progress of millions in order to get their way. We haven't made progress on so many issues for a reason. Those that profit from us not making that progress or for social reasons don't want things to change. As usual, Follow the money!!!

Understood, thank you for the response. I have little knowledge of black history other than what has been taught or read in the mainstream so my perspective is not as cynical about motives. The ideal is to have all young kids have equal and supportive learning environments but I doubt that I will see it in my lifetime but Im my kids will since the younger generation is certainly more in tune

HarperCollins pulls Trump pick Monica Crowley's book amid plagiarism revelations..

http://money.cnn.com/2017/01/10/media/kfile-harper-collins-monica-crowley/index.html

meloanyk wrote:This poll sums it up pretty well as President Obama exits. Surprise poll did not include views on ACA or foreign policy

http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/wireStory/ap-norc-poll-americans-high-obama-divided-legacy-44648916

Seems like the question is saying his "Presidency" divided the country with is a lot different than "he" divided the country..Seems like lots of folks weren't ready for Obama...

holfresh wrote:Republican Senators waffling on Obamacare repeal...I thought it was so bad...

holfresh wrote:

meloanyk wrote:

holfresh wrote:Republican Senators waffling on Obamacare repeal...I thought it was so bad...

It will be refined and replaced more than "repealed". Think everyone values the basic tenets but it cant be left as is as insurers and drs are exiting with costs rising and degrading healthcare. Risk adjusted pools will need to addressed for insurers, providers and choices to return. The Devil will be in its details

Risk adjusted pool can only be implemented if young people get on the rolls or you kick sick people off..They have to make you people policy more affordable...And republican States have to allow the plan..

Here is one alternative supposedly to the liking of Price. http://www.forbes.com/sites/theapothecary/2016/12/29/how-the-2017-projects-alternative-to-obamacare-would-repeal-and-replace-obamacare/#36fe3b421d21

There are numerous other proposals out there, many being proposed by insurers themselves. ACA shouldn't be repealed until a proper replacement is ready

meloanyk wrote:

holfresh wrote:

meloanyk wrote:

holfresh wrote:Republican Senators waffling on Obamacare repeal...I thought it was so bad...

It will be refined and replaced more than "repealed". Think everyone values the basic tenets but it cant be left as is as insurers and drs are exiting with costs rising and degrading healthcare. Risk adjusted pools will need to addressed for insurers, providers and choices to return. The Devil will be in its details

Risk adjusted pool can only be implemented if young people get on the rolls or you kick sick people off..They have to make you people policy more affordable...And republican States have to allow the plan..

Here is one alternative supposedly to the liking of Price. http://www.forbes.com/sites/theapothecary/2016/12/29/how-the-2017-projects-alternative-to-obamacare-would-repeal-and-replace-obamacare/#36fe3b421d21

There are numerous other proposals out there, many being proposed by insurers themselves. ACA shouldn't be repealed until a proper replacement is ready

There are numerous proposals by the insurance companies themselves, I'm sure...That's like saying bank robbers wouldn't rob banks if they were game fully employed as tellers...I now understand why you don't see Trump coming...