JrZyHuStLa wrote:

Uptown wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

OGkush121 wrote:

JrZyHuStLa wrote:What the hell is Kobe Bryant doing this year that Carmelo is not besides realizing Mike D'antoni is not the answer?

He averages 2 more PPG and has 1 or 2 more percentage points in FG%.

And I think one thing I haven't heard anyone mention is that Melo plays less minutes per game than Kobe, Durant, Lebron, etc.
I think those 3-4 minutes could be worth a point or two wouldn't you agree?

You know, since we're talking about PPG. :)

Kobe's stats for his position (rebounding, assists, steals) are much better than Melo's. That's why the two are not close in the sabermetrics.

Sabermetrics?!!

Melo and the Knicks 19-6 with a Win % of 76
Kobe and the Lakers 12-14 with a win % of 46.....Now explain to me why Kobe at this point deserves to be ahead of Melo?!

They should just remove the Most Valuable Player award and rename it to Most SabermetricTS%PPGFG%ASPRBGAST/TORATIO+- Player.

Guys with Big stats on Losing teams deserves far less consideration than those on winning teams.

Melo playing MVP caliber ball right now. He's doing what your all star player is supposed to. Carry the load and lead the team when guys are banged up.

If the season ended today I would rank it something like:
1) CP3. Playing like Nash during his MVPs only + all NBA defense
1a) Durant. The record is MJ Bull's like and he's becoming a high caliber defensive player also. Shooting 52%, 1.5 blocks, 8.5 rebs and 28ppg. WOW.

Durant and CP3 easily the best players in the NBA right now

2) Lebron
2a) Melo

Even though I have MElo 4th I put 1 and 1a and 2 and 2a because thats how I percieve the race if there is one. Because of their success, #s, team records, impact on teammates... the whole package CP3 and KD heads above the class right now. Melo and Lebron are the next group. MVP caliber but outclassed by CP3 and KD playing out of their minds.

Now once Amare/Shump comes back Melo's shots will go down, he will beome (hopefully) more team type role and Knicks will be better for it. It will also eliminate any MVP talk which is fine and good. When Melo thinks hes MVP you see the circus shots and hero basketball and he can have his stretches but he cant sustain and it doesnt work. When Melo plays team ball (even if he's taking the most shots) Knicks play like the best team in the league. A more mature and better Melo doesnt not equal an MVP Melo.

Anji wrote:Whep that's your story, I think I like the one the coaches and players around the league are telling better.

True, no tinted glasses story, just what you see on the court firsthand.

Bonn1997 wrote:

Uptown wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

OGkush121 wrote:

JrZyHuStLa wrote:What the hell is Kobe Bryant doing this year that Carmelo is not besides realizing Mike D'antoni is not the answer?

He averages 2 more PPG and has 1 or 2 more percentage points in FG%.

And I think one thing I haven't heard anyone mention is that Melo plays less minutes per game than Kobe, Durant, Lebron, etc.
I think those 3-4 minutes could be worth a point or two wouldn't you agree?

You know, since we're talking about PPG. :)

Kobe's stats for his position (rebounding, assists, steals) are much better than Melo's. That's why the two are not close in the sabermetrics.

Sabermetrics?!!

Melo and the Knicks 19-6 with a Win % of 76
Kobe and the Lakers 12-14 with a win % of 46.....Now explain to me why Kobe at this point deserves to be ahead of Melo?!

Sabermetricians are more interested in the number of wins a player has contributed to the team than the number of wins the team has. Team wins confounds the player's contributions with the contributions of all other players on the team. Player A can be more valuable to his team than player B even if player B's team has a much better record.

In that case Kobe hasn't contributed many(wins).

Bonn1997 wrote:

ChuckBuck wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

Uptown wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

OGkush121 wrote:

JrZyHuStLa wrote:What the hell is Kobe Bryant doing this year that Carmelo is not besides realizing Mike D'antoni is not the answer?

He averages 2 more PPG and has 1 or 2 more percentage points in FG%.

And I think one thing I haven't heard anyone mention is that Melo plays less minutes per game than Kobe, Durant, Lebron, etc.
I think those 3-4 minutes could be worth a point or two wouldn't you agree?

You know, since we're talking about PPG. :)

Kobe's stats for his position (rebounding, assists, steals) are much better than Melo's. That's why the two are not close in the sabermetrics.

Sabermetrics?!!

Melo and the Knicks 19-6 with a Win % of 76
Kobe and the Lakers 12-14 with a win % of 46.....Now explain to me why Kobe at this point deserves to be ahead of Melo?!

Sabermetricians are more interested in the number of wins a player has contributed to the team than the number of wins the team has. Team wins confounds the player's contributions with the contributions of all other players on the team. Player A can be more valuable to his team than player B even if player B's team has a much better record.

In that case Kobe hasn't contributed many(wins).

Your evidence for this claim is...?

12-14

Bonn1997 wrote:

ChuckBuck wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

ChuckBuck wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

Uptown wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

OGkush121 wrote:

JrZyHuStLa wrote:What the hell is Kobe Bryant doing this year that Carmelo is not besides realizing Mike D'antoni is not the answer?

He averages 2 more PPG and has 1 or 2 more percentage points in FG%.

And I think one thing I haven't heard anyone mention is that Melo plays less minutes per game than Kobe, Durant, Lebron, etc.
I think those 3-4 minutes could be worth a point or two wouldn't you agree?

You know, since we're talking about PPG. :)

Kobe's stats for his position (rebounding, assists, steals) are much better than Melo's. That's why the two are not close in the sabermetrics.

Sabermetrics?!!

Melo and the Knicks 19-6 with a Win % of 76
Kobe and the Lakers 12-14 with a win % of 46.....Now explain to me why Kobe at this point deserves to be ahead of Melo?!

Sabermetricians are more interested in the number of wins a player has contributed to the team than the number of wins the team has. Team wins confounds the player's contributions with the contributions of all other players on the team. Player A can be more valuable to his team than player B even if player B's team has a much better record.

In that case Kobe hasn't contributed many(wins).

Your evidence for this claim is...?

12-14

Then you misread or misunderstood my reply to Uptown sine you're still confounding player win contributions and team wins.

Knicks are 17-4 with Melo in the lineup. 2-2 without.

Kobe's played every game this season for the 12-14 Lakers. Not too impactful with wins it seems even with him averaging 30 pts/game, 5 rebounds, 5 assists.

Definitely not a part of the MVP discussion.

Bonn1997 wrote:

ChuckBuck wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

ChuckBuck wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

ChuckBuck wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

Uptown wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

OGkush121 wrote:

JrZyHuStLa wrote:What the hell is Kobe Bryant doing this year that Carmelo is not besides realizing Mike D'antoni is not the answer?

He averages 2 more PPG and has 1 or 2 more percentage points in FG%.

And I think one thing I haven't heard anyone mention is that Melo plays less minutes per game than Kobe, Durant, Lebron, etc.
I think those 3-4 minutes could be worth a point or two wouldn't you agree?

You know, since we're talking about PPG. :)

Kobe's stats for his position (rebounding, assists, steals) are much better than Melo's. That's why the two are not close in the sabermetrics.

Sabermetrics?!!

Melo and the Knicks 19-6 with a Win % of 76
Kobe and the Lakers 12-14 with a win % of 46.....Now explain to me why Kobe at this point deserves to be ahead of Melo?!

Sabermetricians are more interested in the number of wins a player has contributed to the team than the number of wins the team has. Team wins confounds the player's contributions with the contributions of all other players on the team. Player A can be more valuable to his team than player B even if player B's team has a much better record.

In that case Kobe hasn't contributed many(wins).

Your evidence for this claim is...?

12-14

Then you misread or misunderstood my reply to Uptown sine you're still confounding player win contributions and team wins.

Knicks are 17-4 with Melo in the lineup. 2-2 without.

Kobe's played every game this season for the 12-14 Lakers. Not too impactful with wins it seems even with him averaging 30 pts/game, 5 rebounds, 5 assists.

Definitely not a part of the MVP discussion.

Actually, the sabermetrics can readily explain those differences - Melo is playing with two guys producing at near MVP levels (Tyson, and Kidd until recently), whereas Kobe's teammates are playing poorly.
The advanced stats have Kobe contributing about 2 more wins to his team than Melo and Melo's teammates contributing about 7 more wins than Kobe's have. Melo has actually performed average to below average for his position at every relevant stat except scoring efficiency (which he has done very well at).

You lost me at Kidd and Tyson at near MVP levels.

ChuckBuck wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

ChuckBuck wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

ChuckBuck wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

ChuckBuck wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

Uptown wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

OGkush121 wrote:

JrZyHuStLa wrote:What the hell is Kobe Bryant doing this year that Carmelo is not besides realizing Mike D'antoni is not the answer?

He averages 2 more PPG and has 1 or 2 more percentage points in FG%.

And I think one thing I haven't heard anyone mention is that Melo plays less minutes per game than Kobe, Durant, Lebron, etc.
I think those 3-4 minutes could be worth a point or two wouldn't you agree?

You know, since we're talking about PPG. :)

Kobe's stats for his position (rebounding, assists, steals) are much better than Melo's. That's why the two are not close in the sabermetrics.

Sabermetrics?!!

Melo and the Knicks 19-6 with a Win % of 76
Kobe and the Lakers 12-14 with a win % of 46.....Now explain to me why Kobe at this point deserves to be ahead of Melo?!

Sabermetricians are more interested in the number of wins a player has contributed to the team than the number of wins the team has. Team wins confounds the player's contributions with the contributions of all other players on the team. Player A can be more valuable to his team than player B even if player B's team has a much better record.

In that case Kobe hasn't contributed many(wins).

Your evidence for this claim is...?

12-14

Then you misread or misunderstood my reply to Uptown sine you're still confounding player win contributions and team wins.

Knicks are 17-4 with Melo in the lineup. 2-2 without.

Kobe's played every game this season for the 12-14 Lakers. Not too impactful with wins it seems even with him averaging 30 pts/game, 5 rebounds, 5 assists.

Definitely not a part of the MVP discussion.

Actually, the sabermetrics can readily explain those differences - Melo is playing with two guys producing at near MVP levels (Tyson, and Kidd until recently), whereas Kobe's teammates are playing poorly.
The advanced stats have Kobe contributing about 2 more wins to his team than Melo and Melo's teammates contributing about 7 more wins than Kobe's have. Melo has actually performed average to below average for his position at every relevant stat except scoring efficiency (which he has done very well at).

You lost me at Kidd and Tyson at near MVP levels.

Because Kobe's teammates have played poorly, their team record is not where it should be for him to be in the discussion.

Because Carmelo's teammates have played well to a 19-6 start, along with his solid numbers, he's in the discussion.

In order to be a candidate, you have to have help from teammates who are helping to produce a solid record.

This is another point that has been addressed numerous times.

fishmike wrote:you boys still at this?

Melo playing MVP caliber ball right now. He's doing what your all star player is supposed to. Carry the load and lead the team when guys are banged up.

If the season ended today I would rank it something like:
1) CP3. Playing like Nash during his MVPs only + all NBA defense
1a) Durant. The record is MJ Bull's like and he's becoming a high caliber defensive player also. Shooting 52%, 1.5 blocks, 8.5 rebs and 28ppg. WOW.

Durant and CP3 easily the best players in the NBA right now

2) Lebron
2a) Melo

Even though I have MElo 4th I put 1 and 1a and 2 and 2a because thats how I percieve the race if there is one. Because of their success, #s, team records, impact on teammates... the whole package CP3 and KD heads above the class right now. Melo and Lebron are the next group. MVP caliber but outclassed by CP3 and KD playing out of their minds.

Now once Amare/Shump comes back Melo's shots will go down, he will beome (hopefully) more team type role and Knicks will be better for it. It will also eliminate any MVP talk which is fine and good. When Melo thinks hes MVP you see the circus shots and hero basketball and he can have his stretches but he cant sustain and it doesnt work. When Melo plays team ball (even if he's taking the most shots) Knicks play like the best team in the league. A more mature and better Melo doesnt not equal an MVP Melo.

First he was not even close to being a candidate.

Then it was "ok fine, he's in the fake race."

Now you have him in the same discussion with Durant, CP3, and Lebron.

Glad to see you're getting warmer.

ChuckBuck wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

ChuckBuck wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

ChuckBuck wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

ChuckBuck wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

Uptown wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

OGkush121 wrote:

JrZyHuStLa wrote:What the hell is Kobe Bryant doing this year that Carmelo is not besides realizing Mike D'antoni is not the answer?

He averages 2 more PPG and has 1 or 2 more percentage points in FG%.

And I think one thing I haven't heard anyone mention is that Melo plays less minutes per game than Kobe, Durant, Lebron, etc.
I think those 3-4 minutes could be worth a point or two wouldn't you agree?

You know, since we're talking about PPG. :)

Kobe's stats for his position (rebounding, assists, steals) are much better than Melo's. That's why the two are not close in the sabermetrics.

Sabermetrics?!!

Melo and the Knicks 19-6 with a Win % of 76
Kobe and the Lakers 12-14 with a win % of 46.....Now explain to me why Kobe at this point deserves to be ahead of Melo?!

Sabermetricians are more interested in the number of wins a player has contributed to the team than the number of wins the team has. Team wins confounds the player's contributions with the contributions of all other players on the team. Player A can be more valuable to his team than player B even if player B's team has a much better record.

In that case Kobe hasn't contributed many(wins).

Your evidence for this claim is...?

12-14

Then you misread or misunderstood my reply to Uptown sine you're still confounding player win contributions and team wins.

Knicks are 17-4 with Melo in the lineup. 2-2 without.

Kobe's played every game this season for the 12-14 Lakers. Not too impactful with wins it seems even with him averaging 30 pts/game, 5 rebounds, 5 assists.

Definitely not a part of the MVP discussion.

Actually, the sabermetrics can readily explain those differences - Melo is playing with two guys producing at near MVP levels (Tyson, and Kidd until recently), whereas Kobe's teammates are playing poorly.
The advanced stats have Kobe contributing about 2 more wins to his team than Melo and Melo's teammates contributing about 7 more wins than Kobe's have. Melo has actually performed average to below average for his position at every relevant stat except scoring efficiency (which he has done very well at).

You lost me at Kidd and Tyson at near MVP levels.