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sorry, but Isiah's been a disaster
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newyorknewyork
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3/7/2005  4:38 PM
Exactly what I meant. We didn't trade much talent for Marbury so most would expect bigger results than what we got. We also traded less talent for Crawford so most would expect bigger results than what we got. Because we are getting more talent back.

But again like I said maybe Houston and TT's problems offset the impact or something.
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djsunyc
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3/7/2005  4:43 PM
Posted by misterearl:

Has anyone bothered to mention that Mo Taylor is 6'9 and just 29 years old?

Has anyone mentioned he's got inside post up game we desperately need and shooting 70% from the field as a Knick?

Has anyone thought that he could find a basketball home in New York away from the annointed Jeff Van Gundy?

Nah, lets talk about Mo Taylor's salary instead.

It's a work in PROGRESS people. For all his bleatings about Isiah as a disaster even fish.mike cannnot provide one single example of an NBA franchise going from the outhouse to the penthouse in one season.

Or can he?

instead of playing mo taylor, why not give sweets 10 more minutes a game and the other 5 to malik rose? does mo give us more than an extra 10 mins of sweets?

i don't think so.

but he DID take away some options this summer. that i do know.
fishmike
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3/7/2005  4:48 PM
How about Detroit? They went from 32-50 to 50-32 in one season. How about Seattle and Washington from this year to last? How about the Bulls? Not only could I find one I could find 10 if you really want too. Hell, there are 2-3 EVERY year. Almost all of them have the same thing in common also, a solid young core of players. None of them turned around by adding 29 year old players with their best years behind them.
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
rvhoss
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3/7/2005  4:48 PM
we lost 20 ppg and 8 boards in TT and h20 combined going down (modest estimates).

Forget about Houston's crunchtime experience (maybe could have reversed half of the last second and late game collapses?)...not to mention fugazi's family problems...I'm not even sure if I could work through that let alone play through having to suddenly support my nieces and nephews practically overnight.

In regards to Zeke, I liked this article about how golden state is now following the knick (and zeke's) blueprint.

http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/basketball/story/287620p-246257c.html

Interesting...
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rvhoss
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3/7/2005  4:50 PM
Posted by fishmike:

How about Detroit? They went from 32-50 to 50-32 in one season. How about Seattle and Washington from this year to last? How about the Bulls? Not only could I find one I could find 10 if you really want too. Hell, there are 2-3 EVERY year. Almost all of them have the same thing in common also, a solid young core of players. None of them turned around by adding 29 year old players with their best years behind them.

Were these all first year GM's? I think detroit's was, but I have no idea about the others.
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misterearl
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3/7/2005  4:56 PM
Say What?

>>but he DID take away some options this summer. that i do know.

Would you rather have a team of guys who can play or guys that suck?

We are one year removed from Clarence Weatherspoon, Shandon Anderson and Howard Eisley and some folks treat it like a reason for a funeral. Too bad they believe mean-spirited and resentful hacks like Mitch Lawrence

The Knicks are playing WITHOUT Allan (who needs to shut it down for the season) Houston, played a chunk of games without Jamal Crawford and WITHOUT the tall, talented Tim Thomas (depression & miscellaneous body parts)

I ain't sweatin' the draft OR this Summer League.

C- Jacke Butler/draft pick/Bruno Sundov F- Mike Sweetney/draft pick FA, F-Trevor Ariza G- draft pick / FA G- Jermaine Jackson/ FA

Enjoy The Ride





[Edited by - misterearl on 03/07/2005 16:57:26]
once a knick always a knick
fishmike
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3/7/2005  4:57 PM
who cares? I'm not holding Isiah accountable for not winning 50 games. This isnt a 50 game winning roster. What I expect from him is to use what resouces we have to get max value back. If your willing to take back major $$$ in deals and help any franchise that needs it I expect better than Mo Taylor and Rose back. If we got Houston's #1 I could live with that. 3 first rounders in one of the deepest drafts is solid. Sure you still have roster issues but at least then you can play it off like your serious about building through the draft.

Heck... we GAVE UP a pick to get Mo Taylor.
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
fishmike
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3/7/2005  4:58 PM
earl... why is Mo Taylor any better than Eisley, Anderson or Spoon for that matter? What Mo done those guys havent?
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
misterearl
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3/7/2005  5:01 PM
>>What I expect from him is to use what resouces we have to get max value back.

Max value?
Did you say MAX value?

fish.mike you're losing street cred the longer you rant. What exactly is MAX value for Clarence Weatherspoon unless you make the Rockets an offer they can't refuse?

It's a two, sometimes, three step process that defies straight line thinkers who only see the immediate.

If it doesn't work one improvises.

Improvise


It's Jazz

It's only basketball

This isn't a balance sheet contest
once a knick always a knick
tomverve
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3/7/2005  5:13 PM
Posted by fishmike:

earl... why is Mo Taylor any better than Eisley, Anderson or Spoon for that matter? What Mo done those guys havent?

Come on, is that a serious question? Look, Mo T is overpaid, no question. What distinguishes him from Layden's zombie corps, though, is that he can actually ball a bit. When was the last time ShanEisleySpoon averaged 17ppg as a featured player in an offense? Granted, it's been a while since Mo T has done that himself. But he's done it, and he's off to a pretty good start as a Knick as well. So far he's shown us that he certainly isn't a plodding, bricklaying scrub.

Not to mention that Mo T is under contract here for a total of two seasons. ShanEisleySpoon all had in the range of 5-7 year contracts when Layden brought them in. Sorry, there is really no comparison here.
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Bonn1997
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3/7/2005  5:31 PM
Posted by tomverve:
Posted by fishmike:

earl... why is Mo Taylor any better than Eisley, Anderson or Spoon for that matter? What Mo done those guys havent?

Come on, is that a serious question? Look, Mo T is overpaid, no question. What distinguishes him from Layden's zombie corps, though, is that he can actually ball a bit. When was the last time ShanEisleySpoon averaged 17ppg as a featured player in an offense? Granted, it's been a while since Mo T has done that himself. But he's done it, and he's off to a pretty good start as a Knick as well. So far he's shown us that he certainly isn't a plodding, bricklaying scrub.

Not to mention that Mo T is under contract here for a total of two seasons. ShanEisleySpoon all had in the range of 5-7 year contracts when Layden brought them in. Sorry, there is really no comparison here.
Mo's a good scorer who's averaged 17 PPG before. It takes Eisley about a season to score 17 points!
Bonn1997
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3/7/2005  5:33 PM
Posted by newyorknewyork:

Exactly what I meant. We didn't trade much talent for Marbury so most would expect bigger results than what we got. We also traded less talent for Crawford so most would expect bigger results than what we got. Because we are getting more talent back.

But again like I said maybe Houston and TT's problems offset the impact or something.
So the less you give up the more you expect back? That's why we should have had better results from the two trades? I don't get it. Maybe we should have traded Brewer. That would be giving up very little and we could have gotten a huge amount back by that theory.
Allanfan20
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3/7/2005  6:59 PM
NO! The point is we shouldn't have traded for MO T at all. Even if it was nobody for Mo T. He IS a good scorer. But we have plenty of good scorers. Just b/c someone is good at one thing doesn't give you the right to go after him.
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simrud
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3/7/2005  8:46 PM
I'm sorry, but when people say that max value in a trade is somehow not related to basketball, and that not liking this trade somehow looses you street cred, all I have to say is, how idiotic are you people?
A glimmer of hope maybe?!?
fishmike
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3/7/2005  9:07 PM
http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/players/863/career
http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/players/3184/career

well.. one thing I can see is one guy is clearly a better rebounder, but there is striking similarity here. Looks like the big difference is Mo is paid more
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
gunsnewing
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3/7/2005  9:10 PM
you're leaving out the biggest difference of all. The fact that Spoon is a 6'5'' PF at best while Mo Taylor is a legitimate 6'9'' taller than Kurt Thomas
Allanfan20
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3/7/2005  9:43 PM
I actually liked Weatherspoon. He was a fat bastard, but he always played hard. Too bad he refused to lose some weight. He could have been a nice force down low. And I think he made a bigger impact that Taylor BTW. He's an underachiever, but at least he's an underachiever who plays hard, kinda like KVH. Taylor is just a lazy idiot, but he has actually shown me something on the offense. But we still had no business going after him. He makes friggin' 10 mm his final year.
“Whenever I’m about to do something, I think ‘Would an idiot do that?’ and if they would, I do NOT do that thing.”- Dwight Schrute
Bonn1997
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3/7/2005  11:23 PM
Posted by fishmike:

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/players/863/career
http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/players/3184/career

well.. one thing I can see is one guy is clearly a better rebounder, but there is striking similarity here. Looks like the big difference is Mo is paid more
If all we gave up were Baker and Norris for 'Spoon, I would be slightly against the trade too, but it would be so minimal that I wouldn't spend more than one or two sentences on it, except maybe to laugh at other people who somehow thought keeper Gin Baker and Moochie was essential to our franchise.
Nalod
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3/7/2005  11:44 PM
Fatspoon put up 18 and 10 his second year. He was a nice player 10 years ago!

Laydog paid too much for him! But he was a player once upon a time.
newyorknewyork
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3/8/2005  12:26 AM
[/quote]
So the less you give up the more you expect back? That's why we should have had better results from the two trades? I don't get it. Maybe we should have traded Brewer. That would be giving up very little and we could have gotten a huge amount back by that theory.
[/quote]

We gave up way less talent then we got back in the Marbury & Crawford trade but took back way more talent. But the WINS(RESULTS) haven't followed. So anyone who is pissed has a legitimate beef. When you trade what we traded for Marbury and Crawford most would expect more of a jump in the win % then what we got. So I could understand why there are people who don't feel everything is peaches and cream.

Me personally I think a shotblocker or 2 and a long distance sharpshooter or 2 would put us over 500.
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sorry, but Isiah's been a disaster

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